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  • Spear and magic helmet?

    :)

    (To me, I like a little exaggeration and drama in my visual arts. Vikings are no exception.)

  • TBorNotTBorNot Posts: 362

    A proficient warrier would put a horn on his helmet so that a simple hit would bend his neck around violently.  Well, maybe not.  :-)  Viking fantasy writers are not alone, most video games provide laughable armor.

  • SevrinSevrin Posts: 6,300

    But shredded bikinis are still the best armour, right?

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 9,714

    Sevrin said:

    But shredded bikinis are still the best armour, right?

    Sex as a weapon? Probably has some distractive effect on men.

  • Peter WadePeter Wade Posts: 1,602

    I vaguely remember reading some fantasy book long ago that had an elite group of warriors who went into battle without armour or weapons because they were amazingly fierce and brave. Can't remember their name or the book or the author.

  • SevrinSevrin Posts: 6,300

    Peter Wade said:

    I vaguely remember reading some fantasy book long ago that had an elite group of warriors who went into battle without armour or weapons because they were amazingly fierce and brave. Can't remember their name or the book or the author.

    Doesn't sound like the kind of book that would have a sequel.

  • FSMCDesignsFSMCDesigns Posts: 12,518

    If I want historical realism, I'll visit a museum or watch the discovery channel, LOL

  • Serene NightSerene Night Posts: 17,553

    Vikings are very romanticized right now. I don't get the interest  really, but I'm not into pirates either. 

  • WendyLuvsCatzWendyLuvsCatz Posts: 37,713

    we need more mongols, all those bushy beards and stuffs

  • NathNath Posts: 2,713

    When you look at archeological finds of real viking helmets, I really don't get the fascination with the non-historical horn thing, given that historical helmets can be such works of art. But *shrug*, if it is what people want...

  • FishtalesFishtales Posts: 6,040

    Peter Wade said:

    I vaguely remember reading some fantasy book long ago that had an elite group of warriors who went into battle without armour or weapons because they were amazingly fierce and brave. Can't remember their name or the book or the author.

    Not all fantasy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudity_in_combat

     

  • Sevrin said:

    Peter Wade said:

    I vaguely remember reading some fantasy book long ago that had an elite group of warriors who went into battle without armour or weapons because they were amazingly fierce and brave. Can't remember their name or the book or the author.

    Doesn't sound like the kind of book that would have a sequel.

    LMAO laugh

  • nonesuch00nonesuch00 Posts: 17,890

    They ate puffins! That proves they were wackos! laugh

    There is a 'demostration' mini-Viking settlement of Jorvik, now York, but be warned if you happen to get all touristy and visit, the museum currators decided it would be an authentic ideal to recreate 'authentic latrine smells' too. My niece got so queasy we had to high tail it out of there.

  • maikdeckermaikdecker Posts: 2,750

    The horns on viking helmets are an invention - so it's said - of the german composer Richard Wagner, who supposedly came up with the design for the staging of is operas at the Bayreuth festivals.

    There were finds of horned helmets in northern Europe and in Britain, but these helmets found quite obviously only an use as clothing for rituals, not during combat.

    Of course the "viking equipment" sold here at DAZ fits in nicely with all the non-egyptian egyptian equipment sold here. And all the other non-historical historical items being sold here. Most of the stuff seems to originate from "Hollywood History", which is the lamentable source of way too much pseudo historical "facts" spread all over the globe.

  • tsroemitsroemi Posts: 2,310
    edited January 2021

    maikdecker said:

    The horns on viking helmets are an invention - so it's said - of the german composer Richard Wagner, who supposedly came up with the design for the staging of is operas at the Bayreuth festivals.

    There were finds of horned helmets in northern Europe and in Britain, but these helmets found quite obviously only an use as clothing for rituals, not during combat.

    Of course the "viking equipment" sold here at DAZ fits in nicely with all the non-egyptian egyptian equipment sold here. And all the other non-historical historical items being sold here. Most of the stuff seems to originate from "Hollywood History", which is the lamentable source of way too much pseudo historical "facts" spread all over the globe.

    To my knowledge, there were never any helmets found with horns actually attached but only lying in close proximity in the burials, but I may absolutely be wrong here. Otherwise, couldn't agree more! I understand that many people are wise enough to not expect historical accuracy in a store like this, and so are not bothered by its lack - but many others might for instance be too young to know, and this way, indeed, pseudo 'facts' spread farther and farther like the disease they are. Dear vendors, why not just call stuff like the current Viking mania items 'Fantasy Viking'? If people don't care either way, it shouldn't hurt any sales, should it?

    Post edited by tsroemi on
  • PerttiAPerttiA Posts: 9,298

    Just a few weeks ago, there was a program on TV about Vikings and how the archeologists found out that one of the most notable Viking chiefs was actually a woman, so... Instead of horned men the Vikings were women without horns => Vikings were actually Amazons laugh

  • tsroemitsroemi Posts: 2,310

    PerttiA said:

    Just a few weeks ago, there was a program on TV about Vikings and how the archeologists found out that one of the most notable Viking chiefs was actually a woman, so... Instead of horned men the Vikings were women without horns => Vikings were actually Amazons laugh

    Wow, cool! I never saw that, will go and check. History = mystery ... ;-)

  • mwokeemwokee Posts: 1,275
    The textures used on a lot of these products, you'd think they invented plastic 1000 years ago. :p
  • mwokee said:

    The textures used on a lot of these products, you'd think they invented plastic 1000 years ago. :p

    Yes. From all the Viking bundles lately, this one is the weakest. Easy pass. Don't need to think twice. 

  • LeanaLeana Posts: 10,933

    PerttiA said:

    Just a few weeks ago, there was a program on TV about Vikings and how the archeologists found out that one of the most notable Viking chiefs was actually a woman, so... Instead of horned men the Vikings were women without horns => Vikings were actually Amazons laugh

    "Amazons" would suggest only women were warriors / leaders. In the case of Viking it seems like both men and women were.

  • bytescapesbytescapes Posts: 1,799

    Peter Wade said:

    I vaguely remember reading some fantasy book long ago that had an elite group of warriors who went into battle without armour or weapons because they were amazingly fierce and brave. Can't remember their name or the book or the author.

    It's probably based on accounts of the Viking berserkers (lit. "wearers of bear(skin) shirts") who sometimes fought without armor, although they probably did use weapons and shields. Claims that they fought entirely naked are now mostly discounted.

    They weren't the only unarmored shock troops in history by any means. For instance, Shuja ud-Daula, the Mughal Nawab of Avadh in India in the 1760s, fielded a force of 6000 Naga sadhus (Hindu holy men) who wore their hair in dreadlocks and fought naked with their bodies decorated with ash. They consumed bhang (a cannabis derivative) to induce a battle frenzy. Unfortunately, it didn't make them impervious to bullets and they were killed in large numbers fighting against soldiers of the English East India Company at Patna.

    Vikings, incidentally were typically farmers and fishermen most of the year round. It was mostly in the summer months, when calmer seas made it easier to sail long distances, that they would leave their fields and nets and set out as ship-borne raiders. It's rather as if you worked in an office ten or eleven months of the year and then took an extended summer vacation to go off with a bunch of your friends and mug strangers for their iPhones, cars and sometimes their wives or girlfriends. Nice work if you can get it.

  • McGyverMcGyver Posts: 6,995

    From what I understand Vikings didn't have horned helmets, the horned helmet was a Wagnerian stage prop, and even then, they weren't horns but trombones... so never believe what you read, especially if I wrote it.

  • McGyver said:

    From what I understand Vikings didn't have horned helmets, the horned helmet was a Wagnerian stage prop, and even then, they weren't horns but trombones... so never believe what you read, especially if I wrote it.

    Are you sure they weren't the original Wagner tubas?

  • JabbaJabba Posts: 1,458
    edited January 2021

    LOL... I was biting my lip while thinking "don't say anything Jabba, just don't say anything - it won't achieve a thing..."

     

    Presumably these completely unrealistic interpretations sell really well, otherwise the artists would surely stop making them - that's the most positive thing I can say really... if people didn't buy them then they would be a lot more scarce on the ground.

    Similarly, it would appear historically accurate items do not sell well because they are very hard to find... so supply and demand would surely suggest what most people want (unless of course people simply buy what is released as a reflex action).

     

    Merlin (Merlin_Studios) did the best historic helmets pack - it's a bit old now but with very little work it can be licked into shape for iRay (along with a bit of a move a rescale for GenesisX) - Oh, it's over on the Renderosity store rather than his DAZ page, with the title "Merlin's Medieval Helmets".

     

    Alrighty, just when you thought you were safe...  history lesson time, LOL

    There's actually more to the whole "Vikings with horned helmets" trope than initially meets the eye, but it pre-dates the Vikings and goes all the way back to Bronze Age Eastern Mediterranean (c13th Century BC).

    The Bronze Age Collapse was brought about by several unfortunate events that overlapped each other - earthquakes, volcanic activity, crop failures resulting in widespread famine, and a mysterious and diverse coalition of raiders from the sea that modern scholars have labeled "The Sea Peoples".

    - One of these groups was known by the Egyptians as the Peleset who appear to have become the Philistines in the Bible.

    - Another group were called the Sherden by the Egyptians, who were easy to recognise in battle due to their horned helmets - were considered fierce fighters and depicted with round shields, swords, and horned helmets, who raided coastal settlements from their ships.  See the attached image for a sketch of Sherden helmets as depicted by Egyptians 

    The Egyptians also appear to have bought their services as mercenaries after subduing the Sea Peoples in battle - the mercenaries seem to have added a disc or a ring to their helmets indicating their service under Ra...

    ...sounds a lot like Vikings, eh?

     

    Now zoom forward to Victorian Europe, and you have a continent full of an upper-class obsessed with Ancient Egypt, eagerly consuming any stories and discoveries... and when the Sea Peoples appeared in the Egyptian accounts, they assumed they must have been the ancestors of the Vikings, and scholars used to share their presumption as fact.

    - but despite sounding so similar to Viking raiders, there is no actual connection between them and the Sea Peoples.

    So what we have today is a trope that was born out of Victorian theory that fed into movies and the arts - it's only really in the last 40-50 years that this was finally debunked.

    Incidentally, the trend for DAZ creators to use straps on their shields instead of boss-grips is another inadvertent throw-back to the Sea Peoples rather than historic Vikings... incerdible stuff, eh?

     

    PA Artists - if I could make a suggestion - make you helmets so the horns can be removed (most helmets look fairly historic except for the helmets), then everybody gets the best of both worlds  ;) 

     

    Since I'm already on my soapbox, I'll mention this too... it simply wasn't standard procedure to hold shield in right hand because that meant you could not lock into place in a shield-wall, which was the strongest defensive formation used by Vikings and in the kingdoms right across Northern Europe.

     

    -edit- Celts had a type of helmet many interpret as a horned halmet, but stylistically, the protrusions are shaped like cones rather than natural horns.

    seapeoples-xherdenhelmets.jpg
    700 x 460 - 84K
    Post edited by Jabba on
  • Peter WadePeter Wade Posts: 1,602

    Richard Haseltine said:

    McGyver said:

    From what I understand Vikings didn't have horned helmets, the horned helmet was a Wagnerian stage prop, and even then, they weren't horns but trombones... so never believe what you read, especially if I wrote it.

    Are you sure they weren't the original Wagner tubas?

    Another thing I've heard, probably another myth, is that Vikings drank out of hollowed out horns, or maybe they quaffed from them. Could this be a way to easily carry your drinking (or quaffing) horns by fixing them to your helmet? Perhaps they were the original Wagner tinnies?

  • And let's talk about construction in the Viking era.  They wouldn't have windowless rooms made of concrete or concrete furniture.  Buildings were made of wood with straw (thatch) and roofs covered in grass to help hold the warmth in. I'm always looking for historically close buildings, and I could always use more assets. 

  • FantastArtFantastArt Posts: 224
    edited January 2021

    I did viking reenactment for a long time several years ago and I was sewing historical garments for reenactment markets. No, they didn't have helms with horns and not even drinking horns. The most accurate garment for women is https://www.daz3d.com/viking-handmaiden-for-genesis-8-female-with-dforce-cloth-and-fur although not perfect. I didn't find any historical accurate outfit for men.

    Please don't look at the stuff from the Viking films, that's fantasy stuff.

    But hey, in art everything is allowed ;-)

    Here are some images from me and my partner. The girl on the first image is my daughter 7 years ago in Haithabu.

    1048030_10201614950282299_1937173764_o.jpg
    759 x 1059 - 163K
    1475788_10202760863649417_826907805_n.jpg
    800 x 450 - 77K
    10608370_609325845849969_9119868932509755919_o.jpg
    1024 x 730 - 105K
    Post edited by FantastArt on
  • ChumlyChumly Posts: 793
    edited January 2021

    Sheeshh....
    If you think the Viking Mis-Interpretation is bad, it has nothing on Pirates/Piracy/Golden age of Pirates.....  
    Another one we can blame on Victorian Authors and Disney.
    http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/

    FantastArt...
    You in Germany?

    Post edited by Chumly on
  • maikdeckermaikdecker Posts: 2,750

    PerttiA said:

    Just a few weeks ago, there was a program on TV about Vikings and how the archeologists found out that one of the most notable Viking chiefs was actually a woman, so... Instead of horned men the Vikings were women without horns => Vikings were actually Amazons laugh

     This small tidbit tells a lot about modern science or maybe rather what "common" people seem to learn of it. There had been finds of other burials of notable viking females before. Full with valuables and stuff, making it clear that the woman buried there was a person of great influence, alas with no weapons near her. Instead there was lots of household equipment, jewelry, two (I think to recall) highly decorated beds...

    The weapons make that one - more recently found - burial different. I think to remember that a sword, an axe, a bow and arrows were among the things she was buried with. So yes, THIS female was quite obviously a female warrior.

    So... the first grave gave us a female leader of a household - the other a female warrior. And now fitting in the mindset of our millenial times, suddenly ALL viking females were of course warrioresses... which is not something what the many written sources from the viking age talk about. There's some females taking the sword to defend their homes and family. There's the tellings about how the lady of a household was it's ruler, keeping all the keys and managing the income from farming and whatsnot. But going "on viking"? Not that I know off...

    One has to look very closely at the results from historical "truths" - old and new alike - to make sure how much of them results from actual proven facts or just from assumptions, done by someone by an agenda. Being from Germany, which has it's own time in history of a quite fictitious hereditary of "blond and blue-eyed people" mostly spread a brunette dark-eyed austrian, taught me that.

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