Welding verticies and UV maps

3DAGE

I wouldn't advise Welding objects together,. just export the part you need as a model.

Carrara users are genuinely helpful, and want everyone to enjoy Carrara,. but some issues are beyond our collective abilities.

The texturing issues you're getting are only apparent when you "attach" (fit to) the geograft part,. and return to normal if it's removed,.

so try not "fitting it" to the figure,. try parenting it to the figure's body part,. see if that works.

 

Thanks for the Blender image,. interesting,... :)

 

My thought is that the MinotaurUV may be exportable as an Image (since there's a little camera icon)

that would make it the same thing as a Texturing template,. a wireframe outline of the flattened model, or part of the model EG: eyes legs torso etc..

The list above that are the "shading domains" or surfaces/ material zones etc,. lot's of names for the same thing,. 

designated areas of the mesh which can have a different shader from the rest of the model.

Each one of those will have a different UV layout.  since each shading domain has been set to load a different shader /material /surface ,.(texture map) :)

 you should be able to load a model,. select a shading domain, and export the 2D UV (texture template) map,.. for that domain.

 

You can do the same thing in Carrara,. in the Vertex modeller / UV mode,. there's an option in the "Display" tab where you can "export" an image or the uv mapping layout.

see pic.

you can select any domain in carrara,. and then export the UV template image.

 

In Blender,. you may also be able to add other UV layouts using the + button,. on the right of that blender image.,. or perhaps , like  carrara,. it's a process of selectijg one at a time,. then exporting,. select the next,.. export,..

 

When you export the model, (in a format such as OBJ) . from blender,. you should get all the UV data (contained within the model)  that the model had when you loaded or created it.

I'd test that out by exporting that Minotaur UV from blender,. and see what you get,.  if it export's an Image format,. then it's a UV texture template.

 

The issue with having only one UV listed is that you may have altered the UV's, by deleting them,.  But,..

If the model renders correctly in blender,. then you may only be deleting those texture templates, ...and the models UV projection should remain intact.

 

The UVW comes from the fact that the XYZ are already used for the position of the vertices in 3D space,. so the preceding letters UVW are used to describe the position of the vertices within a square 2D area ,.. EG:  the shader/ texture area.

There should be some way in Blender,. to create shading domains,. Set a UV projection method, then export the flattened 2D image,. so that you can create texture maps for your own models.

Hope it helps :)

DaremoK3

Inkubo:

Thank you for that Blender UV tip.  I did not know about this one.  It's not surprising one can learn new things after years of use...

 

3DAge:

I respectfully disagree.

You predate my 3D usage by five years, but I came in at Poser3, and RayDream3D.  Before anyone had ever muttered the word "Shading Domain" (not to be confused with Shaders, such as the ones that needed hand coding for BMRT), UV Maps existed.  Hell, that is even why one software author named his software UV Mapper, because that is what it created, a UV Map.

Just as a Shading Domain is synonymous with MAT Zone (Material zone), UV Map is synonymous with Texture Template, but a UV Map is not just the Vertex Texture coordinate designation in an Alias Wavefront OBJ file format.  It is an actual map, just as there are Normal Maps, Texture Maps, Displacement Maps, Vector Displacement Maps, AO Maps, Emission Maps, Specular Maps, and etc.

Yes, a UV Map is not directly used in a Shader, or applied to a MAT Zone (though it can be), but is only used as a physical proxy to create the other said Maps (in an external 2D painting program).  Nonetheless, it is an actual, tangible map.

Regarding Blender, and if one doesn't know about a function in the software.  Blender can have a UV Map stack (in the UV module shown from Inkubo's image) of literally 100 UV Maps all attributed to one Object/Mesh model, and all named independently of one another (though, I just name them UVMap_001, UVMap_002, UVMap_003, etc.).

I am not referring to Stacked UV Maps based on Shader Domain/MAT Zone designations, but how ever many different UV mappings (Box, Planar, Cylindrical, LSCM, ABF, Projection, Per Facet, etc.) one wants for a model (which can later be used in such programs as DAZ Studio where one adds new UV mappings to Figures/Props for use in Shading Tab, as an example).  These are only solidified upon export of said object with "one" UV Map selected for VT coordinate designation (OBJ file format).

Now, I can't say I have ever successfully UV mapped anything in Carrara.  I tried, but I just couldn't get along with the way Carrara's UV module worked.  But, I have been UV mapping for years in other software such as Wings3D, Roadkill, UVLayout, UVMapper, Unwrap3D, 3DSMax, Maya, SoftImage3D, 3DCoat, Silo, Blender, Metasequoia, and even Hexagon (though, I'd rather give Carrara another try before I'd map in Hexagon again).  This was back with C5, and C6, so I guess I should really give C8.5 a shot at least...

This is the same as the misconceptions regarding Vertex Groups within Blender as well.  They are both independent, and working in tandem with Shading Domains/MAT Zones, but are more dynamic within Blender, and are not solidified as Facet Groups (material groups) until export (OBJ file format).

Material/Facet Groups are translated to both Material zones, and Vertex Groups upon import into Blender, but Vertex Groups can be modified, manipulated, and created independent of Material zones including full body groups over zoned groups, and cross border groups living in tandem of each other.

For Figure/Prop modeling designed for Carrara, DS, and Poser, one just has to keep in mind that the Material Groups will take precedent upon export to the Facet Groups designation in the (OBJ) file.

Even if you disagree with my statements, or don't care about Blender's usage for Carrara work, this is more for edification of those who don't know, or newbies who have yet to take the journey...

DaremoK3

Tried UV mapping in C6Pro again, and it was as bad as I remembered...

Currently, I am UV mapping a base sculpt mesh I created in the latest release of Metasequoia with the Armature modeling function (Blender Skin Modifier equivalent) in C8.5Pro, and it is a real pleasure.

Way to go DAZ, the way the UV module works in Carrara now is a great improvement.  I love that the pop-up is gone, and UV-ing is more integrated.  Also, thank you for finally including seaming/unfolding for easy UV work.

 

* EDIT:  Quick question - Does anyone know if they have added a way to turn on Backface Culling in Wireframe Mode in the Vertex Modeling Room?

 

3DAGE

HI Daremok3

This started as an attempt by me to clarify the users meaning of "named UV's" since that's was what blender is calling those areas.

since in carrara they're called domains.  and UV mapping for the model or it's zones don't have "names",... so it's confusing,. and getting more so.

I was wrong to say that UV maps don't exist,. but thats the confusing point,...

I understand what you're saying ,. UVmapper makes UV map's,..  that sounds right,. so I'm wrong and UV maps do exist,...

However,. exporting a 2D UV wireframe is an "Option" rather than the main purpose for the program,. which is actually "Setting" a UV projection method or layout for the model.

I also get that the 2D UV template image is designed to help make texture maps for that model,.

however,. you don't actually need to use any texture maps,. shader functions can use UV coordinates too.

 

If I understand correctly,. what you're saying is that Blender can allow Multi-layer UV options on each named area (head legs, etc)  and when you export the model all of those possible options are baked into the model, and are selectable/changable on the fly ?

thats' interesting.

the UV coordinates are stored in the model, so that no matter what program you're using,.. it can read that UV info.,. it's not reliant on a physical UV map (image) somewhere.

the other "maps" you mention are all intended to be used (as you say) directly on a model,.  ..but not neccessarilly that specific model.

you could also just apply any texture image, and since the Model has the UV data,. the program knows how to apply that image.

it's complicated,.. which is why i tried to clarify what was what.

C8.5's UV mapping / unwrapping is much better than C6 but there are some issues,. (cylindrical mapping) is bust,. and has been for some time,.

the Pop up menu is there,. it should be "right click" in the UV space.

development time is what's needed to bring carrara up to date,. and that could potentially include support for that UV multilayer approach.

 

DaremoK3

3DAge:

I agree regarding the VT's.  With me, you are preaching to the choir my friend...

I know you know your stuff, and you are one of the resident experts on Carrara.

The Blender UV module is more akin to DAZ Studio's Shader Tab UV selection box, and both DS's DUF file format and Blender's BLEND file format share the storage capability of multiple UV's per object.  Not singular stacked UV's (Head, Torso, Legs, etc.) such as Victoria4's that are selected via Shader Domains, but the entirety of V4's UV's, and M4, V5, G1male, G1female, and etc. all residing on a singular Genesis1 figure changeable in scene via UV drop-down box in the Shader Tab.

Of course, on export (just as it is in DS), whichever UV is currently selected will be the UV coordinates that are written to file.

 

The C8.5 pop-up for contextual command changing is not what I was referring to.  I used it a lot while working on the mapping, and appreciate that it was available.  What I meant was the key difference between the two versions.  In C8.5, you select UV mode at the top of Vertex Modeling Room parameter tab next to both the Edit, and Animation switches which gives you an interactive side-by-side split screen with model on the left and UV space on the right.  But, in C6 you select UV mode lower down on the parameters tab (Edit, and Animation switches all by their lonesome up top), and instead of interactive split screen, a non-interactive pop-up UV screen opens up floating above the Vertex Modeling Room, and nothing is selectable within the room until one closes the UV screen.

Thanks for the heads up on cylindrical mapping.  If I need something mapped with that algorithm I will use other software.  And, I agree about development time.  Here's to hoping DAZ is going to devote some of it to a future version with some improvements.

I love 3D painting in Carrara, but the UV mapping module could use some added functionality, and maybe some more algorithms added to it.  Also, I wouldn't hate it if they finally added vertex/edge slide to the Vertex Modeler as well.

3DAGE

Thanks for that explanation,.

 

Ah right,. it's been a while since I loaded C6,. now I remember,. they changed that in C7,.

a non-interactive pop-up UV screen opens up floating above the Vertex Modeling Room, and nothing is selectable within the room until one closes the UV screen.

it's a tricky one,. but there's a little viewport in the top right (directors camera)  where you can select stuff.

 

MarkIsSleepy

I agree with Inkubo and DaremoK3 - one object can have multiple named UV maps. You can see this with any of the Genesis figures. Many of the characters change the UV map when you apply their textures and in DS you can also use a drop-down in the surface settings to switch between, for example the default Genesis UV and the Victoria UV. You can see those options in DS and in Blender, but while they exist in Carrara for those figures they are hidden.

I am with 3DAGE though on thinking that the solution is not necessarily to weld the pieces together but to just combine them into one vertex object but keep them as separate polygroups (ie do NOT weld them together!) with different material zones, or to just parent them.

It's also possible (and frequent) that I have no idea what I am talking about as there is a lot going on in this thread and I only skimmed it. 

Inkubo

Well, I got my answer. If in the VM room I highlight the entire minotaur tail, leave the VM room, select the minotaur body, go back into the VM room, and paste in the tail, Carrara hangs. So apparently I can't join the objects, regardless of whether UVs would be preserved. 

3DAGE

HI Inkubo :)

It's maybe because it's a rigged object,.  there's a lot of stuff going on in a rigged object ,. such as Morphs and weightmapping,. both of those are tied to the geometry.

that's why you would normally "detach the skeleton" from the model,. (even your own models made in carrara)  before you can add/delete any of the model's geometry.

and also why "purchased" models are "protected" to stop you breaking all of that stuff.

Fenric had a plugin to "unlock" the figure,. then re-lock it again,. which bypassed that. but i think his store is closed,. maybe PM him

I'd try simply parenting the tail to the hips of the figure.

you could also add some hair to those connecting area's,. to cover any texture issues.

 

MDO :)

Yes,. an object can have multiple domains, and each domain can have a different UV layout,.

but,.right now,. each shading domain can't have more than one UV layout in Carrara,. apparently Blender and DS are using a multilayer approach where each domain has multiple possible UV options saved within the model EG: V4, G1, G2, ...etc.

I'm still not sold on why that would be "needed" if you were working your own model,. I'm sure time will tell,. if we start to see multiple UV options on props, or buildings etc,..

but right now... it sounds to me like another gimick.

 

Inkubo

3DAGE said:

It's maybe because it's a rigged object,.  there's a lot of stuff going on in a rigged object ,. such as Morphs and weightmapping,. both of those are tied to the geometry.

that's why you would normally "detach the skeleton" from the model,. (even your own models made in carrara)  before you can add/delete any of the model's geometry.

Hmm! Sounds like my next experiment needs to be to detach skeletons and then attempt the stitching!

3DAGE

you shouldn't need to weld or break anything,. try the easiest method first,.

Drag the tail (in the scene instance list),. drop it onto the figures hip, in the scene instance list, to "parent" the tail, to the figure

That will make the tail follow the movements of the figure/hips,. and leave all the bones, morphs, weightmapping, etc,. unaffected

you'll still be able to pose and animate the tail and the figure.

it's the same process as fixing a Hat to the figures head, or embedding an arrow in a figures chest,.etc,..

you wouldn't normally edit the figure mesh and weld the arrow to the figure,. you just place it where it's needed, and parent it in the instance list to the figures chest.

 

Detaching the skeleton will effect weightmapping, (removes it) which may effect how the mesh deforms when you pose the figure.

hope that makes sense :)

Andy