The art of clothes making
vindice2010_6c25251fe8
Posts: 4
Hi everyone, think this is the right place to post this.
I was wondering how some of the excellent clothes are made for genesis 2 characters. Do people model them in blender or hexagon? Or do a lot of the creators for this type of content use marvellous designer?
I need some more historical clothing for gen 2 figures but I don't want to get too bogged down with creating them. If marvellous designer is as easy as it looks then I might look at this avenue rather than model them in blender.
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It depends on the PA. Blender seems popular, so does Zbrush, I recall someone using Mudbox and 3DS Max. See SY's DA account, she shares useful information there.
And for newbies, DressShop can be a good start.
Don't start with DressShop.
Marvelous Designer is used by a lot of artists here who make clothes, and you can sort of tell when an item has been made in it with practice (in particular, nothing does gathers or folds around the waist area like MD). I always work in Blender because I'm not happy with MD's current DRM, but I would consider it mandatory if I wanted to get into softer, looser clothing; I'd just have to use it on this laptop and export the objs for tweaking in blender and setup in DS.
I also use Zbrush and 3dCoat when I need to do seamless painting, although that's usually on characters more than clothing. Modo is used by a lot of DAZ's in-house artists in combo with Zbrush as well. What software you use matters less than what results you get out of it.
So far I use Blender but I do wish to get MD one day.
I participated in the open beta and loved it.
It definitely has the best cloth simulation but a lot of what you can create depends on your knowledge of how real clothing is made I´d say.
Where the seams are, how the patterns look.
I didn´t have much time to play with MD since I only joined the beta for the last few days but in that short time I found it very easy to use, fun and producing very nice looking results.
The only thing I did not fully check was the attributes for the fabric. Like adjusting the bending for different materials, denim bends differently than silk and so on but I´m sure it has it.
I think I´m going to get it once I save up money : )
I still have the 15 day trial period which I keep postponing because I´m always afraid I won´t have enough time for it.
But depends on what you want to make. I made my first outfit in Blender and the one I´m currently working on is also being made in Blender.
As Sickle said the results are what´s important. You can make some nice things completely for free : )
Marvelous Designer, Z-Brush, Hexagon, UV Layout.
Mesh right out of MD is messy, even if you tell it to make quads and apply sub-d and smoothing it's still messy. I always run the result though z-brush remesher to align the edge loops to the folds, then I clean up the mess remesher makes in Hex and add extra details and thickness. It's not a fast process but it gets the nice folds that MD is so good at but fixes the messy topology.
MD makes beautiful folds but is so expensive.
I use Zbrush(I bought it cheap here years ago), Hexagon and UV Layout also...
There is a good tutorial on folds in Zbrush in another store by BadKitteh called sculpting cloth in zbrush it's currently at a very good price in their sale but not sure how long for.
Indeed. z-remesher can also dramatically reduce polygon count, and you choose how low you want to go to keep details.
Indeed. z-remesher can also dramatically reduce polygon count, and you choose how low you want to go to keep details.
I've only used it a few times, is there a trick to avoid making massive spiral loops without going crazy with guide curves?
For the main question, Marvelous Designer is probably the easiest way to get nice clothing that physically looks good. From what I've seen in videos and forums, the models need a large amount of rework/retopology in a modeling app to be "presentable", echoing what others have said in this thread. Buuut if the outfits are for personal use you could probably get away with avoiding the second step, worst case scenario is that you'd need to add extra geometry around joints for better deformation; a fairly minor surgery.
I've only used it a few times, is there a trick to avoid making massive spiral loops without going crazy with guide curves?
For the main question, Marvelous Designer is probably the easiest way to get nice clothing that physically looks good. From what I've seen in videos and forums, the models need a large amount of rework/retopology in a modeling app to be "presentable", echoing what others have said in this thread. Buuut if the outfits are for personal use you could probably get away with avoiding the second step, worst case scenario is that you'd need to add extra geometry around joints for better deformation; a fairly minor surgery.
If you click on the topology brush prior to remeshing you can set up guides as to how you want it. That helps...
edit to add image...This was a morph I was playing with for Dawn, just quickly remeshed using the topology brush. I used two guides one vertically down the centre and one horizontally at the waist.
The spirals drive me nuts.. dunno how to avoid them. Not very good with z-brush yet.
I don't think the remesh I did earlier was too bad in terms of spirals but I know what you mean about spirals...the topology brush does help a bit with that.
I don't think the remesh I did earlier was too bad in terms of spirals but I know what you mean about spirals...the topology brush does help a bit with that.
It's hit or miss, but what I'm talking about is if you take the retopo'd result into another app, and try to select an edge loop. It spirals down half the arm, instead of each ring connecting to itself. VERY annoying if you need to make further tweaks afterward.
It's hit or miss, but what I'm talking about is if you take the retopo'd result into another app, and try to select an edge loop. It spirals down half the arm, instead of each ring connecting to itself. VERY annoying if you need to make further tweaks afterward.I have the same problem in UV layout...
It's hit or miss, but what I'm talking about is if you take the retopo'd result into another app, and try to select an edge loop. It spirals down half the arm, instead of each ring connecting to itself. VERY annoying if you need to make further tweaks afterward.
Alt-clicking zremesher will use a different algorithm which may help. You can also try using polygroups to help control edge flow.
...cross your fingers for luck though. :(
Thank you guys for the replies, really appreciate it.
I think for now I will continue to use blender and just try to find some good tutorials. Unfortunately the ones I've found so far have not been too great so if anyone has any recommendations that would be great!
I use Silo to make my clothing. I started with tutorials from Fugazi over at Rendo. (The Digital Tailor) They are mainly for poser , but the general principal is the same and you can probably follow them using any other modelling program.
If blender is the "Weapon of choice", there is a thread in the Art forum, that SickleYield dose visit on occasion, OK allot.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/42075/
SickleYield dose have allot of good tutorials over at Deviant Art by the way. It can be a bit tricky to find them if your new to that site, like I still am to a degree.
http://sickleyield.deviantart.com/
(EDIT)
I think this may be better, if the link works.
http://sickleyield.deviantart.com/gallery/45710023/Tutorials
Yes as Zarcon mentioned, the first link leads to a thread I started in June and the comments there contain a lot of useful information to those new to 3D because at that time I knew almost nothing about 3D and just like you I wanted to try modeling clothes for my figures using Blender : )
But I understand that not everyone feels like reading all the conversations in there.
Anyways what I´d also recommend before you start modeling clothing is to try some very basic modeling to get to know Blender and the basic functions, the useful modifiers and modeling techniques.
I remember when I was starting I was doing some simple things like mugs, teapots, bowls.
The very first thing I modeled was a mug in Blender I think and it did look rather terrifying : D
<3 <3 <3</p>
Beaten to it...thanks for providing the links!
Download the free modellers like Blender and Wings3D. Download the demos of any you want to try. The key is to find a modeller that you find easiest for you to use.
Hexagon is a low priced option sold here at DAZ. Some users have had problems with it, others have not. It's biggest drawback is that it's only a 32bit app.
Yeah as much as I love Hex myself, if you're new to modeling try to wrap your head around Blender first, it's very stable and can do a lot more.. and free is always good. Hex is cheap but usually not free (and unstable as all get-out for a lot of people). Silo is very similar to Hex in scope and ease of use, but costs more (still cheap in the overall scheme of things though.) I've seen some very nice things made with Wings, though I hear it has issues with objects that aren't water tight, which is pretty much all clothing, so your mileage may vary with that one.
Dress shop is for people who don't model and want to dabble, so don't bother with that one if you want to do serious work. You can cut holes into a dress all you want in any of the real modeling programs I listed above, and if you want a starter dress to mess around with instead of having to make your own from scratch there are quite a few floating around for all the different figures, for sale here and and at rendo, and a bunch of free ones at share cg.
That said...Blender can make you brains melt out of your ears. You need to find some really good tutorials on the basics before trying anything. I've done one or two tutorials successfully but I still look at the interface and think what the hell do I need to do.
Hexagon is much easier to get a handle on and as long as you save frequently you should be right. Geekatplay have some great tutorials for Hexagon but if you want Blender try CGCookie http://cgcookie.com/blender/cgc-courses/blender-basics-introduction-for-beginners/
the basic tutorials are free iirc.
That's why it's best to try as many as possible within the price range you can afford until you find one you like. Blender is free but it's early UI's were the source of much hair pulling. I'm still not as comfortable with it as I am with other modellers.
Thanks again for the useful info everyone.
I will check out the deviant art tutorials. Although I still consider myself a beginner I've used blender a fair amount so I'm quite used to it's interface and basic modelling techniques, I think I'm ready to give clothing a crack (famous last words!)
Best of luck, and pleas do not be afraid to ask questions if you have any. I'm sure there are many that would love to help, and many more that are probably also looking for answers to the same questions.
Marvelous Designer is a pretty good program. I've only ever used MD3 when I was a beta tester for it. I've never used MD4 (current version) but I hear they've made a lot of improvements to the export. It finally has quads but unfortunately it's just a quadrangle conversion of the random tris mesh, not a proper topology mesh. Still that's a start.
The company itself leaves a little to be desired in the way it has handled its matters. They blatantly misled a lot of people who purchased MD2 and then tried to cover their tracks by blaming it on errors in translation since they are a Korean company and had at the time only one employee who spoke English.
My involvement with their community pretty much ended when the beta period for MD3 ended. I didn't sign up to beta test MD4. I find their pricing is just too restrictive for a hobbyist such as myself and even with the quad mesh export you're still going to have to retopologise the mesh in another program so that's not really that big an improvement.
When I was beta testing MD3 I was doing a gig where I was basically sitting at a desk for 14 hours a day 7 days a week and when an alarm would go off I'd press a button and make a note in a log book. So I had my laptop with me and a hell of a lot of free time on my hand to do nothing but play with MD3. As a result I have literally hundreds of outfits I made with the software (naturally not all of them are winners).
The meshes required a lot of post export work in Hexagon to turn them into completed outfits. At that time MD3 did not export a mesh with thickness (MD4 does) and it's a bigger pain in the ass to try and make hard surfaces accessories (buttons and buckles and zippers etc.) in MD than in a vertex modeller. So I never did the finishing touches on most of the outfits I made to make them useful (and many of the outfits were really just variations on a theme).
As a modeller I initially found myself fighting with the software because you don't make clothing in MD the way you do in a vertex modeller. You actually tailor your clothing the way a seamstress/tailor would. This makes the software very useful for people who actually have real world sewing experience but no modelling experience. It makes it initially very confusing for people without any sewing knowledge though. You get over it pretty quickly though and it doesn't take long to figure out how clothing patterns actually work.
The drawback though is everything has to be made the exact same way in the software it would be in real life. This often causes headaches when you're butting up against something that would take you seconds to do in a vertex modeller and now have to struggle to get the simulated sewing to do the real thing.
All in all, if money is no object I would say MD is a hell of a good program for making clothes, just take everything the company promises you with a grain of salt... or a tablespoon of salt.
Since MD was too expensive for me to justify the expense I looked elsewhere for an affordable alternative and discovered 3DCoat. It is a voxel sculpting program with automatic and manual retopo tools. It's not quite as powerful as ZBrush but it's interface is a lot easier to use and I know a few 3DCoat users who use 3DCoat for their sculpting and then use ZBrush for their retopology (Zremesher does a much better job than 3DCoat's Autopo). 3DCoat has an educational/hobbyist license for only $100.
All in all I'm very glad that MD was priced out of my range because 3DCoat being a full modelling program has proven much more useful over all. Not only can I use it for making clothing but I have also used it to make props and figures. It's vertex modelling capabilities leave a lot to be desired though so I do a lot of swapping between it and Hexagon to make a final mesh. It has a very rudimentary cloth simulation, nowhere near as good as MD, but since I have an understanding of how cloth folds from my experience as a 2D artist I can sculpt the cloth the way I want it with pretty good results. I haven't had the luxury of free time to the extent that I did when I beta tested MD3 so I haven't yet learned the software as well as I learned MD but I'm getting there. Once I get proficient with the software I plan to make a tutorial showing how to make clothing for Genesis using 3DCoat.
These are some of the outfits I've made recently with 3D Coat.
I know this is an old thread and that making a free tutorial is a great deal of work that no-one is obliged to undertake but I wonder if this tutorial is still planned?
I bought 3dCoat over a year ago but, since I'm still learning a lot of other things, 3D Coat has been neglected.
I bought the tutorials for it here at DAZ and, while they are interesting and useful (and I don't regret the purchase), the software interface changed with the latest version which makes them slightly outdated.