Well, new generation figures, converting clothes and other stuff
cosmo71
Posts: 3,609
Well, I do not really understand what is so good about the new generation figures like g2f and genesis and others. There are to much of them out there with just a view products for each. You like a product maybe a jeans or so made for genesis or maybe for v4.2 but you character is G2F well okay, you can convert it from genesis or from v4.2 to g2f but that does work not 100% well in most times. Well okay, you can apply the smoothing modifier but that also does not help in many cases.
So what is the idea behind all these different figures?
COSTUMER FRUSTRATION?
Skirts for example converted from v4.2 to genesis or g2f does not work well at all and some skirts for genesis converted to g2f do not work also correctly. Shirts, Tops and other stuff also.
Seems we should buy new clothes for each figure but the problem is...there are to much figures and less products for each and I can understand vendors not knowing for what figure they should produce an item.
The same with poses and hair and other stuff.
I really do not understand this figure chaos. V4.2 and M4 okay, and I can understand a next step but than there was genesis, then genesis 2 male and female, then v5,v6 and so on and on and on and than the HD stuff and all this is a realitively short period of time without a good and varied product development in a large number for each ot the figures. If one criticize this, then it is pointed out that there are all these good convertes...as written above...not so good as they should be.
I am a bit frustrated and angry about all this.
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Okay, sure some things work with the clothe-converter but in some cases not for every body-pose of the g2f character :( but until there are enough good clothes out there I will try to convert the clothes from my content (most I use is by 3D-Age at renderosity because his clothes looks like good ordinary street clothes and not like these fantasy street stuff nobody would wear in real life)
by the way, tops and shirts work quite well after converting, only bigger problems with skirts and sometime with pants
Technology moves forward, and any serious vendor wants to put out the best quality product they can, so they move forward with the technology.
V4 items will not always work on G2F because they were not designed for g2f, and as such can not be auto converted to work as well as if the item was made for g2f directly.
That should be simple common sense.
But even if one was to take that item and make conversions by hand, it still would likely never convert well, as the grouping and such could be vastly different.
So vendors make products for new figures...that is how life progresses. The old objects still work fine for the figures they were designed for, and can still be used quite effectively on them. Though personally I would delegate them to background figures and use the better quality new generation stuff for figures in the forfront, as they can be much better quality than what was made back in the v4 days.
Technology will always move forward, and in order to make and use the best quality of products we all move forward with it. There is no sense in bemoaning the progress, one should simply embrace it and enjoy the best quality products they can get.
Rawn
I think you may not realise that, as far as clothing, hair and to an extent characters go, the G2F and G2M characters can all share with each other - and outfit that lists itself as "for V6" will usually work with the base G2F or any of the other shapes, though the fit may vary if it has to rely on auto follow to generate the shape (.AutoFollow is the morph copying thing, it isn't AutoFit that changes the rigging).
Hi Cosmo,
In some ways I share your frustration. I've bought a LOT of content for Vicky Four over the years (if my real world wife was as high maintenance as Vicky 4 is, I'd have been broke years ago) and was incensed at the (seemingly) sudden proliferation of new figures. However, I've come to terms with them and find that they can co-exist. I still use Vicky Four, content in the knowledge that she's still widely supported with lots of new stuff still being made. But Genesis Six (please give her a better name Daz) has also found a home in my runtimes. I understand that there's been no small amount of marketing push with the new figures but that doesn't mean that folks have to use G1, G2 or Dawn at the expense of another.
I don't really share your viewpoint, Cosmo71. I'm not going to advocate the G2 platform as being superior, but rather I would like to say something about the way you are thinking. It sounds like your frustration is that you want the clothing you purchased for Vicky 4 to be convertable to G2 with 100% accuracy out of the box. Just click the convert button and off you go! That's never been the case at all in any 3D platform I'm aware of. If the clothing was made from Vicky's Geometry with 60k Polys, then converting it to fit a figure with 21k Polys isn't going to be doable without a bit of work on your part. To me, that's like taking a carburetor out of a buick and trying to put it into a 2014 fuel injected vehicle and then complain that it doesn't correctly convert. Of course it doesn't --but that's not to say that you can't make it work, it just means you're going to have to do some work on your own.
I have many items in my runtime that were converted from V4/M4 figures. I've redone textures, I've converted props and added morphs to prop hair to get them to work with the new figures, but I had to let go of the notion that conversion should be like the Staples Easy Button. It's not the vendor's fault that you're trying to use articles in ways not intended when they were created. DAZ gives you some tools to help make it easier, but you've still gotta do some work. In the picture here, the figures are Genesis 2, but the combat gear is Michael 3, the Shirts are M4, The pants are Genesis and the boots are actually from Hivewire 3D's Dusk. But they are all Genesis 2 Items because I took the time to convert them. I did most of the work In Silo and Zbrush which went a lot smoother when I abandoned thinking of the auto-convert first.
I took the OBJ of the boots into Silo and re-positioned them over the G2M. Then I re-welded all of the points. That took about twenty minutes. I fine tuned the fit of the boots in Zbrush, which is perfectly suited for this kind of work because I didn't want to change the maps at all. Then I took the finished boots into DAZ and used the transfer utility which took all of about 45 seconds. The Shirt was also a similar thing --I took it into Silo as an OBJ and gave it some more geometry while I moved a few points to make it fit and back into DAZ. Genesis clothing was even easier as the Auto Convert worked perfectly. My point is that twenty minutes was enough to convert the clothing in a way that yielded the best results for me with less headaches. I do the same thing each time I convert a piece of clothing from V4/M4 to Genesis 2, and I'm by no means an expert. I would rather spend time with the up front headache then to endure the constant frustration of converting without planning.
I didn't even have to use Zbrush for the boots --I could have done it all in Silo or Hexagon. You're basically just re-positioning points that have already been created. My experience has been that there is an Easy Button, but it's just not built into the software. I had to let go of thinking of DAZ Studio like I think of Modo or Cinema 4D. It's not a modeling program, so I stopped expecting it to act like one. With the barest amount of tools you can convert any piece of clothing if you're willing to put in the work.
If you have a lot of Gen 4 (which I do) then using the GenX2 product is wonderful. Yes, it's going to cost some money to get the other products (such as the corrected UV map which solves the slight stretching, changes of eyebrows) but you get a workable V4 on Genesis (or can do things onto Gen2. Frankly, I'm a Genesis fan.) You'll see a big difference in the bending of the joints from Generation 4 to Generation 5. Have you considered Gen2X?
When they very first asked us for our "wish list" for Studio 4 I said I wanted the clothes I already owned to fit newer figures. I was told that was impractical at best and impossible at worst. Keep in mind that clothes didn't always fit a character from the same generation much less a different generation. When it turned out that I could use even some of the older clothing I was thrilled beyond words. Admittedly that the fun fantasy wear is often the least convertible because it has draping skirts and so forth but even the magic they did to get some of my clothes to work has limits. I can understand frustration with everything not working perfectly but at the same time I am still in awe that anything does with such ease.
Reality: no coversion app is going to work perfectly. I own many a conversion app. Standalone, plugin and integrated. The Tailor, Clothes Covertor, Wardrobe Wizard, Crossdresser, Wardrobe Wizard 2 (standalone and plugin), Autofit, and Poser's Fitting Room. All have their strong points and their weak points. The mesh you are converting as well as how radical the conversion is plays a big part.
Change is inevitable. It has been a big part of the Poser/DS world pretty much from the start. P4 users who switched to Mike and Vicki had to buy new items. Fortunately, V2 and M2 could wear the same clothes as M1 and V1. Once Gen3 came out, the game changed. Different rigging, different mapping. A whole new set of items. Same with Gen4.
I get plenty of use out of Gen 4, Genesis, and Genesis 2 models. I've had little problems converting any Gen 4 clothing that I wanted to use on the newer generations, and it's not that hard. Besides, it's smart and pretty much necessary from a business perspective to make newer, more advanced products periodically to reinvigorate sales. The older a product gets, the more saturated the market, and the more saturated the market, the more sales will eventually slow.
...well to a point.
Tried to fit the Regency Coat for G2M to a G2F character and had all sorts of issues.with stretching and deforming of the mesh. If I increased the smoothing to fix the deformations in the front, I got what looked like a "crumpled bundle" of polygons on the bottom edge at the back of the coat.
Ended up using the Reiver trench coat for V4 which behaved much better (due in part to SickleYield's skirt fixes for G2F).
In my humble opinion, the autofit addition was a stroke of genius. Here was an automatic procedure to fit old clothes onto my new generation figures. It was unheard of! Before then, I'd have to use Crossdresser to get outfits converted from one model to another, and the results were often not as good as autofit is today.
Skirts and dresses will always be an issue with autofit. It's simple as to why. Do you treat those polygons below the waist as a skirt, or do you treat it as two legs? If you do the former, how do you balance the movement between one leg and another? Or do you not move with the legs at all? It's a conundrum which really requires a human touch, since computers aren't quite smart enough to work out the fine details themselves.
In ye olde times of Victoria 4, even changing the base figure too much would result in outfits that no longer fitted. Genesis got rid of all of those issues by having outfits flex and morph with the figure. Genesis 2 then improved upon that with higher detail figures, and more bones to make use of. It's great to see how out favorites have evolved over the years, and while it took me time to warm up to them I'll have a lot more faith in Daz when they inevitably release a Genesis 3 or something later down the line.
Most V4 outfits will work fine on Genesis and Genesis 2 through autofit. Skirts are a notable exception, but tops and trousers will be fine. Mallenlane made a wonderful clone for G2F which even works well on footwear and dresses (two of the trickier ones), which genuinely surprised me. Genesis 2 might not be for everyone, but it's hard to deny that there are distinct benefits to using it.
...well to a point.
Tried to fit the Regency Coat for G2M to a G2F character and had all sorts of issues.with stretching and deforming of the mesh. If I increased the smoothing to fix the deformations in the front, I got what looked like a "crumpled bundle" of polygons on the bottom edge at the back of the coat.
Ended up using the Reiver trench coat for V4 which behaved much better (due in part to SickleYield's skirt fixes for G2F).
I did mean items for one G2F will usually work with any G2F and items for one G2M will usually work for any G2M, rather than making the claim for G2M<>G2F. If you do want to swap male to female or vice versa for clothes or hair the Cross Figure Resource Kit may help instead of using Auto-Fit http://www.daz3d.com/genesis-2-cross-figure-resource-kit
On the exact opposite of you two (and just as happy), I dumped all of my v4 and m4 stuff once G2 came out. Once I had a decent library for G and G2 I found myself rarely using gen4 at all. I miss some of my expressions, but the poses are usable with some tweaking, and I mostly use dynamic cloth anyway. The gen4 dynamics work fine on G/G2. With the scale dials, even the K4 dyanmics work on them xD
UVs are a tricky thing, too. Some gen4 UVs don't work well on the new figures, even with the UV options for them. But that's kind of rare.
On the exact opposite of you two (and just as happy), I dumped all of my v4 and m4 stuff once G2 came out. Once I had a decent library for G and G2 I found myself rarely using gen4 at all. I miss some of my expressions, but the poses are usable with some tweaking, and I mostly use dynamic cloth anyway. The gen4 dynamics work fine on G/G2. With the scale dials, even the K4 dyanmics work on them xD
UVs are a tricky thing, too. Some gen4 UVs don't work well on the new figures, even with the UV options for them. But that's kind of rare. I have a number of items that I love from gen 4 that I've converted to the figures I use. I love the new features of ds that allow me to still use them. I remember mourning the inability to use some of v3's outfits with v4. With the advent of clones and Autofit I can now use some of that content again.
My comment was more about having options than anything else. I love the original genesis and also some of the newer figures that are now available but I also love the uniqueness of Nursoda figures which still have a place in my runtime.
You dumped Vicky Four?!...just like that?....you cold, cruel person you...how could you? Poor thing must have been devastated, and after all you've been through together and everything that she's done for you too.
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
huh. ..I didn't type that.
You dumped Vicky Four?!...just like that?....you cold, cruel person you...how could you? Poor thing must have been devastated, and after all you've been through together and everything that she's done for you too.
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Well, I think one problem is that, by the time a new figure comes out, the stuff youve previously made for the last generation becomes obsolete (meaning what you are more capable of now versus then) So I think a lot of vendors just move forward completely.
I am considering converting some of my old Gen 4 stuff.... but this is the problem I am facing with it. Which ones do I convert? Or do I just redo them completely? Some of the ones Im considering could actually use an update, not really just a conversion. But then, Im torn whether I want to devote that sort of effort into all of them. Chances are, only few of them will get a reboot.
For me, its not the overwhelming amount of figures out there that annoy me. Its the lack of UV and clones that drive me nuts.
It takes 100x more man hours to make a new figure then it does to make a clone/UVs. But we dont see any clones...
This right here to me is a clear indicator that there is other greedy forces at work.
If these figures were compared to say, GPU's... every GPU ever invented would be specifically designed for 1 manufacturer or another.
Meaning my Nvida card would never fit a gateway. Because HP jimmy rigged it to never fit any other model then its own.
And they go out of there way to make sure nobody is creating universal GPU unites. I understand technology rises. But that is no excuse as to why my V4 clothing rides up the crotch of my G2F.. Technology is on the "rise" They claim, yet I don't see clones improving much. If anything they have gotten worse over time. Again.. Clear indicator...
V4 is 50% Less efficient then Genesis.
G2F/M 50% Better then Genesis...
Clothing clones is almost completely backwards from that statistic. Mirror like...
So.. the excuse that its technology rising just went right out the window...
It's very obvious that it is being engineered this way. To force consumers to buy buy buy buy...
You know how many clones my Genesis has? About 18 clones. They all work pretty well.
Wanna know how many clones my Genesis 2 Female has? 4... And the only one that works like it should is the Genesis clone.
Hey Ignis, I get what you're saying as I've got freebies that are no longer up for that very reason. However not everyone who made things for v4 was necessarily at that point. For some of them might not even still be making things. I have some beautiful things for v4 that I think still stand the test of time. A well made mesh doesn't become obsolete, they may need updated textures or shaders though.
Not all content is worth converting but some things are worth the effort. Autofit doesn't provide a perfect solution but it gets it close enough that I can get it the rest of the way with most things. I think I actually prefer messing around with this stuff these days I'm a bit weird that way... ; ) iirc your eden outfit converts quite nicely. Good meshes tend to...
Edited to add there are even textures for v4 that are fairly recent that I would happily use with genesis the only reason I haven't gotten them yet is because I'm not sure how much is procedural versus texture.
If you have generation x2 and the genesis 2 add on, it is not hard to copy all of the Genesis clones over to G2F/G2M. Apart from the usual issues (ie long dresses/skirts and high heeled shoes) the clones work pretty well on Genesis 2 as well.
In addition to either using GenX 2 or the transfer tool to move characters, you also have the map transfer tools to copy textures from one UV to another which is free within DS. Simply convert the textures to V5 or M5 and they work on Genesis 2. Also clothing conversion will never be perfect using automated tools, you would need to learn how to use a modeler and the free tools within DS to refit items. If you pay for these items, you are paying for the convenience of others doing most of the work for you. You can do the same things for free if you are willing to do the work.
Why does your Genesis have 18 clones? Wait, are you talking about Clothing Templates or actual Figure Shape Clones?
Why does your Genesis have 18 clones? Wait, are you talking about Clothing Templates or actual Figure Shape Clones?
I have 21 clones in total for Genesis
3 for Gen2 female
7 Gen3
9 Gen4
1 each for Sadie and Sam by 3d universe which adds to 21. I don't even have the gen2 male clone yet so it is possible to have more than 18
I have 21 clones in total for Genesis
3 for Gen2 female
7 Gen3
9 Gen4
1 each for Sadie and Sam by 3d universe which adds to 21. I don't even have the gen2 male clone yet so it is possible to have more than 18
Yes, I know that ;) First I wanted to make sure we were really talking about clones and not the clothing templates.
Second, what I was getting at is that you have to purchase those additional clones for the base figure.
G1 didn't come with all those clones by itself we had to buy add-ons to add in those other clones.
Same goes for the G2 line of figures. (Well to add in V4/M4)
My G2 figures have 14 or so clones, but I had to make some of them myself. Which wasn't hard, there's a thread about how to do it.
I have 21 clones in total for Genesis
3 for Gen2 female
7 Gen3
9 Gen4
1 each for Sadie and Sam by 3d universe which adds to 21. I don't even have the gen2 male clone yet so it is possible to have more than 18
Yes, I know that ;) First I wanted to make sure we were really talking about clones and not the clothing templates.
Second, what I was getting at is that you have to purchase those additional clones for the base figure.
G1 didn't come with all those clones by itself we had to buy add-ons to add in those other clones.
Same goes for the G2 line of figures. (Well to add in V4/M4)
My G2 figures have 14 or so clones, but I had to make some of them myself. Which wasn't hard, there's a thread about how to do it.
No...it isn't hard to make them. What is hard is getting them to be as accurate as you would like them to be. Just out of curiousity...I haven't checked my own gen2 figures yet what besides V4 and genesis do you have? Is it mainly for gen2 new figures? Or are they for the older generations? I believe that there was some work underway for gen3 to genesis2 but I'm not sure if that ever happened or if it was for uv's.
Just one further comment the 9 gen 4 clones I believe were free with the original genesis iirc and included the alternate uv's for them also. I'm quite happy to be proven wrong if someone knows better/more than I do though...it's just how I recollect it and my memory isn't the best these days.
Like MaleM3dia said earlier, you can't get accurate results from an automated process. At least not yet or maybe not ever.
Still, you can get close enough so that corrections aren't as bad to do.
My G2M figure, for example, has these clones:
A3, D3, F3, H3, M3, S3, V3 (Generation 3 clones created using that tutorial)
K4, M42, V4 (Generation 4 clones created using that tutorial)
Michael 4 (Slosh's product)
Genesis, Genesis 2 Female (I believe came with G2M base)
Like MaleM3dia said earlier, you can't get accurate results from an automated process. At least not yet or maybe not ever.
Still, you can get close enough so that corrections aren't as bad to do.
My G2M figure, for example, has these clones:
A3, D3, F3, H3, M3, S3, V3 (Generation 3 clones created using that tutorial)
K4, M42, V4 (Generation 4 clones created using that tutorial)
Michael 4 (Slosh's product)
Genesis, Genesis 2 Female (I believe came with G2M base)
So most of them you have created yourself? I missed seeing the m4 one by Slosh. I shall have to check it out. Thanks for checking...I'm fairly sure I bought the v4 one that iirc was created by the person who created hitomi.
Edited to add the better the clone is the better the end result.
Yes but only the ones that are marked as such. You should already have Slosh's product, it enables you to use the M4 UVs on G2M.
It is pretty much like that one you are talking about for V4. Adds a shape, UVs and clone. Definitely check it out, UVs are far more complicated to recreate than clones are ;) He has other UV products as well, though I haven't tried them out myself since I don't have many skins that require those other UVs.
Yes but only the ones that are marked as such. You should already have Slosh's product, it enables you to use the M4 UVs on G2M.
It is pretty much like that one you are talking about for V4. Adds a shape, UVs and clone. Definitely check it out, UVs are far more complicated to recreate than clones are ;) He has other UV products as well, though I haven't tried them out myself since I don't have many skins that require those other UVs.
I've only recently started using gen 2 as I tend to prefer the original genesis. I have bought some of the clothing but mainly convert it for use with other figures. I have no doubt though that with Slosh as the vendor it would be a great product and if I had seen it earlier would probably have picked it up. I do have some of his other products though...so thanks for the info!
Edited to add I do have a large number of gen 4 skins so alternate uv's are useful even if the results aren't always perfect as sometimes they may be just what you needed.