Is It Just Me or...
Swan
Posts: 134
Is it just me or are most of the clothes and characters for the female versions woefully sexist and stereotypical of what horny gamers might create? Also have noticed an incredible discrepancy between the number of products available for female characters vs. male. Would like to see that more balanced. As such, because I'm interested in historically accurate things from the Celtic, Greek, and Roman worlds, I might just end up doing my own stuff. What are the best resources for learning how to create models and their resources for DAZ? I'm what most would consider a Photoshop expert and no stranger to working with and creating 2-D art, so I'm hoping the learning-curve of going 3-D will be more mitigable than what it would for most.
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Huh, you are the first person to ever point that out... other than the last several dozen threads on the subject. ;)
(Not just you)
You may be surprised to find many of the vendors you feel are sexist are female.
Tim, please read more carefully. I never said the vendors were sexist. I said the products were. There is a HUGE difference. And regardless of the gender of the creators for that stuff, that stuff is still blatantly sexist. Same goes for a lot of the male products. Guess what I'm saying is I'd like to see more realism in the art. Show me the good, the bad, the beautiful, and the ugly.
Check out my deviantart. I like to try to buck the trend.
Women can be sexist. That said I don't think supplying to the wants of the market is sexist in itself. People want virtual women in sexy outfits because that's what they like, it isn't wrong to like something and nobody should feel forced to buy something they don't like. I'd love to see some historical stuff, if we'll researched, I'd really like to see some decent ww2 British uniforms including wrens and Waac. It ain't going to happen. And I'll still happily buy sexy clothes.
Timmins, yeah, that's more like it. :D
Some have argued older Generation 3 costumes had more authentic Celtic/Greek/Roman designs. I can't speak to this as a truth, as I am not usually concerned about historical accuracy. You could potentially find some older Generation3 clothing and find ways to fit it to modern figures.
Learning to model, or design clothes is a fairly large undertaking. Especially for the designs you want to replicate. I do not discourage learning however. You just need to decide how much time you are willing to invest in learning. It also will depend on budget. For example Hexagon is cheap, but has lots of quirks. Before modelling clothes, you might need to learn how to prevent it from crashing. There are more modern tools like Blender, but for many it's a chore to learn. It is free and very powerful however. So if you do want to make your own clothes, do you want them overnight, or will you devote some weeks and months to learning? Cause I could offer some advice, I've been modelling on and off for 15 years.
And I agree with both Tims. :) Lots of threads on this, with explainations of why things are the way they are. And one of my fave vendors with the smexy poses is a female.
But to the point about what is sold, even though there are reasons for the content sold here, I agree if more authentic designs were sold a different audience might view Daz differently. But that discussion is beating a dead horse.
The sex of the vendor has nothing to do with being sexist. Anyone doing this (definition) is sexist according to the definition by Merriam-Webster: : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex. (Behavior meaning making those skimpwear outfits, etc- for both men and women.) Women can certainly be sexist toward other women.
But I find the definition and interpretation very vague- showing something sexy doesn't make it sexist to me. It is simply sexy and where I draw the line at acceptable is different from the next person.
Not that I want to be called police or anything, but since we have a perfectly good thread on one of the points brought up by the OP running already we could keep that discussion there.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/59504/bored-about-bikinis-lingerie-and-underwear-for-female-characters#latest
What is unique in this thread is the OP's need for assistance in making some art. While they opened with the "sexist" stuff, you can see it was driven by a need to get or create content. So maybe we could use this thread for that?
Fuengirola what figures are you using? Do you have a preference yet?
One of the good things about the market right now is that while male clothing plays second fiddle, BY THIS POINT there's a lot of it out there.
So hey.
I make a lot of use of Genesis Egyptian outfits, for example, and they work fine.
Budget is not an issue. Neither is my drive. Nor intelligence or ability. Time, however, is always at a premium. Still, if creating my own stuff is the only way I can get what I want, that is what I will do.
Regarding the products sold here intended for females, there isn't much to differentiate one from the other to me. Seems to be a boilerplate:
1) Profuse cleavage? Check.
2) Abdomen showing? Check.
3) Ass cheeks showing? Check.
4? Legs showing? Check.
There isn't a drastic difference in style, so if you buy one of those, you've pretty much bought a majority. Were I a vendor, I'd look at what might make me stand out a bit more. I've seen some XURGE stuff that looks pretty good. Not historically accurate really or from the timeframe I'm looking at, but still, better than most.
Don't really have a preference thus far. I've been working with Gen 4 and Genesis 2 mostly. I'm really liking how the Gensis 3 model looks and am hoping the male version is just as improved.
Though the thread I linked to is very long at this point, PA's chimed in to explain why they do things they way they do here. Comments similar to yours have been made a few times and responded to.
Since you have already had some exposure to non Daz stores, I guess you may have already done some searching and not found what you needed. Then the most empowering path would be to make your own assets. You'll need to pick a tool to work with and come to terms with that. There are really countless options in that area. Hexagon, Blender, Silo, Max/Maya, Zbrush, Marvelous Designer etc etc. Once you are comfortable making garments in your tool of choice, getting them working in Daz is pretty simple.
The general idea is you export out the Daz figure (typically as an OBJ) and import it into your modelling/design package. You design the outfit around the shape and once done import the clothing back into daz.(again typically as on OBJ). From there you do the rigging stuff. I do most of my clothing design with Marvelous Designer these days, with hard edge stuff and props out of hexagon.
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/userguide/creating_content/modeling/tutorials/creating_clothing_against_genesis_morph_shape/start
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/12921/help-with-creating-clothes-for-genesis-steps-involved/p1
I think your first step is to look into some of the tools that people use and see which one might be a winner for you. Then find out if it is really a winner or not LOL. Blender is free, Zbrush, Marvelous Designer and Silo have trials. Marvelous Designer would not be a solution for hard edge piece however..so it works best in conjuction with a modelling package to give you everything you need. There are other tools people use that I did not mention, so you might even pick something else.
Why they do what they do is not reflective of whether I will buy their product, which nine times out of ten is no because of the similarlity and lack of originality. Their loss, not mine.
I have Zbrush and 3DS Max, just haven't gotten around to learning how to use them. That pesky time factor I mentioned earlier, but guess I'll have to get over that. :)
Thank you for the pointers! I was afraid rigging them in Daz would be a bear.
They have stated pretty clearly, its not their loss. They know what sells. But I understand as I push for more diversity but it's the same excuse. Only white people sell well, so we have to deal.
Rigging clothes to Daz figures is certainly one of Daz Studio's strengths. It will be the easiest part of the equation (cept rigid groups like armor will require a tad of love and care, rest is just a few clicks).
Good luck!
As someone who ran a successful business, I'll disagree on the part that it is not their loss. It is their loss; they just refuse to recognize it. Yes, what they sell sales to a certain point, but their potential profit margin is cut by lack of variation and producing product specifically for a certain group of consumers. My point is that failing to address an aveneue of revenue is a loss of revenue, one that could be fairly substantial judging by what I read in my brief time on these forums and what I know about a couple of different industries that directly relate to 3D graphics.
DAZ is a company that's built its business on making naked human figures and then selling clothes and props for them. Think Barbie and ask yourself how much that plastic femme's appearance or accessories reflects real life. Not so much, huh? And that's a product that's aimed at young girls. There are some artists who produce modern outfits that are more reflective of the real world...IH Kang and Dogz come to mind... but historically accurate outfits are much harder to come by. Because, in the end, this is a business that sells fantasies, and it's pretty clear what the majority of people buying products are fantacizing about.
Is it just me or... was anybody else clicking on this thread with no idea what the topic was but noticed other fools were clicking on it so it must be interesting. But while I'm here.... SAVE POSER!!!... Cycles is not an answer to the real problem.
As many vendors have noted, investing a month or two in a product (160- 320 person hours), that in return only generates 15 - 30 sales, is not increasing their profit margin. Keep in mind the vendor typically only gets 50% of the purchase price. So if it's something that sells for even $20.00, 30 units will give them a return of $300 for two months work. For those who do this for a living, grossing $150.00 a month (before taxes) will quickly put you out of business rather than grow your business. Even if they sold 100 units, $500.00 a month gross is not even close to a living wage. That is why so many are reluctant to go away from what sells well.
Now if you are willing to make your own, mabe you could fill part of this empty niche market with your creations?
If the people who complained about the content thry don't like put 5% of that effort into supporting the content they do like or creating alternatives, the market would be flooded with options.
I put alot more than 5% into supporting the content I do like. Had I found more, I would have put in more.
Tim, that's rude.
Look, maybe the market isn't there and you're just hearing the vocal minority, that vendors have an accurate picture of what sells and will sell. Fine.
Backhanding us to say that not only that, we're lying about what we'd buy?
I have, to date, not bought any swimsuits or underwear or bras. My content is pretty much evenly divided between the sexes, with a variety of suits and props and scenes. The one time I was actually motivated by a woman's outfit was the Arthurian outfit with Ninive 6 pro bundle, which is about as opposite of skimpy you can get without going burka.
If this topic irritates you as much as it evidently does, maybe you can focus on threads you actually like.
I didn't quote you or mention you. If you're offended, that's your issue - not mine.
Depends on what you charge and the demand for the item, doesn't it? As in any business, something costs more if that something is specialized and there is less competition. Like with anything, though, there is a risk involved.
As for DAZ taking 50%, that's a bit crazy. I'd say 20% is more along the lines of what they should be taking.
Since there are, as has been noted, umpty thousand and one threads on this - including an active thread - and since the tone of this thread starts out in accusatory mode it is being locked. Fuengirola, please start a thread in Product Suggestions asking for historically accurate things from the Celtic, Greek, and Roman worlds without the blanket commentary.