Product Images and Render Engines
Fauvist
Posts: 2,046
in The Commons
Product images should be rendered with several render engines. Seeing 5 images of a skin texture - all rendered with Iray is of absoutely no use to all of us who don't use Iray.
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We put images of stuff that comes out the best. We are trying to sell a product and only want the very best of the promos. ATM Iray is giving the best results so thats whats being used. Plus, not all PA's know how or have the apps to do renders in other apps.
Not to mention that some of those other render engines are expensive.
I don't want to see what comes out the best, I want to see what it looks like with Firefly and 3Delight. If I don't see renders made with those render engines - I don't buy the product. Poser is coming out with a new render engine like Iray and Lux - so there is going to be another level of confusion.
I want to see firefly renders. I kid.
In reality I don't worry about the engine used because I don't use the ones commonly used here. Even if I did, I never shoot for stock results anyway.So I wish I could see the raw textures, but that never happens.
For clothes i just want to see a textureless render (which many include). for characters I would like to see a sample of the skin texture. The best promo pieces make me not mind a sample of the skin, because I can see it's potential. However occassionally the promo render puts me off when it actually might be a good base texture.
I think the point is, if the product comes with 3DL shaders, it means the product oficially supports that renderer, so at least one of the promo images should show it. If a product contains only shaders/materials for a given renderer, then there is no reason to show alternative promo images. As a PA, you may feel the purpose of the promos is to sell your product. But to consumers and consumer law, the purpose of promo images is to disclose the product in a truthful and honest way. (I am not speaking of you specifically, just marketplace vendors in general.)
So it's really simple: if you include 3DL shaders, or shaders for specific to any other renderer, show at least one render using these assets. These options are a selling point for the product, and the customer should be able to see a preview of those options.
Others above are right that if there are no stated assets to support a given renderer, it's up to the buyer to visualize how these will work and look.
Buy it, try it, see it!
You know the rest.
never underestimate this freebie
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/2877/mcjteleblender-daz-studio-scenes-animations-w-blender-s-cycles-engine#latest
Iray is the default renderer in DAZ studio, not 3delight. So really if a promo is showing only Iray promos, not only is the best renders showing for the product, but also the standard, default renderer in DAZ Studio. Also if PA is unable to to render a decent 3delight (or a firefly render) or the render isn't at the same quality as the other promos, that render is not going to pass the review and not used at all, the PA will not be forced to remake it. In addition there is 30-day return policy so if you don't like the shaders you can return the product.
I'm still living in the 3Delight world, and I know while some materials work using both (even if they don't look the same, they work), but some materials don't work at all in one of the two. It would certainly be handy to know prior to purchase if it is guaranteed to fail in 3Delight, rather than having to do a purchase/test/request-refund cycle on every purchase, which also translates to paying salaries for those processing a large number of these. But I understand that it's not practical to support every possible shader, or even just a few popular or recently-popular ones. Kind of a no-win situation I guess. Putting a little tested/rendered in "iray" or "3DL" might help.
Another thing that can help in this situation, even if it's not ideal nor covering all products all the time, your fellow forumites might be able to assist in your purchases if you post a question about a product then somebody who owns it can perhaps render it in your requested render engine so you can get a potential feel for what it might look like. Of course, you are then at the mercy of the quality settings and experience level and interest and time of those who respond.
If you look in a PA's commercial thread they sometimes show those renders or are willing to do a render for you. I have a new set coming out and only have Iray promos in it cause it is the best quality. When we start our commercial thread we will be posting 3DL and Firefly if asked for.
It only makes sense that if a PA sells the product with the 3DL (or Firefly) shaders listed, then the PA should show an example. There are no valid excuses to not. If the shader looks bad, don't include it. Or, if the PA has difficulty doing a better promo, he or she can find someone who is willing to do it in exchange for a free product or cross promotion with another PA.
The default renderer in 4.8 is irrelevent given the large numbers of people srtill using 3DL (and if a product is also sold as supported in Poser, Firefly). If as you say a promo render is so bad it doesn't pass whatever review it's subject to, then just maybe that part of the product shouldn't be sold in the first place. I can't believe Daz likes to refund unhappy customers. There's a reason for the review process.
Again, I'm only talking about promos of shaders directly supported by the product, and listed as a sales point asset in the description. For PAs, you can't have it both ways. You can't sell your product as having a feature and at the same time not be willing to show it because it puts your product in a bad light. Pick one or the other.
Some PA's can render Iray much easier than they can 3DL. It's a completely different setup and one may work to their ability more than the other. The people who started with 3DL can possible get decent renders out of it. Newer PA's may have only worked with Iray so your going to discredit them cause they don't know the system and end up doing bad renders that hurt the sales on the pack. Good renders in Iray usually means it will render just as good in 3DL.
That's a poor excuse. If a PA is capable of creating 3DL shader presets, he/she should be competent enough to set up a simple 3DL render.
I have no plans to use Iray anytime soon. I too do not like products that have Iray only promos. In fact, I will not buy products that have Iray only promos. Since the introduction of Iray, Genesis 3, HD characaters that cannot be loaded minus the HD morphs etc, my spend at the DAZ store has plummeted. I'm spending my 3D budget elswhere and I guess that is the bottom line. If DAZ and PAs can afford to drive away customers, then fair enough. I'm more than happy to shop elsewhere.
Ash: For what it's worth, there's still PLENTY of pre-Iray material in the store. ;)
It's going to take me years to get through it, as it is.
I'm sure any PA can "afford" to offer free product to previous customers or forum users or fellow PAs in exchange for a good render. I understand the bit about bad renders in 3DL -- I'm not very good with it myself. But if I were a PA for Daz, selling a product that is touted on the shopping page as being supported for 3DL or Firefly, I guess I'm old fashioned enough that I'd want to show an example. I'd find a way to do it.
It is not a given that an Iray render can look just as good in 3DL, and you've said so yourself. Iray renders often look better right out of the box. I'd say that if a PA is selling direct compatibility with a certain renderer (e.g. it has Poser Firefly or 3DL shaders, and says so right on the product page), but can't get or find a good render under these engines, then the average customer of the product won't be able to, either.
And we will be appreciatingy your example posts using all these products, Mr. Timmons William! (And yes, I'm being serious. Yours is a joyous sharing of your art, a bright spot in all the qubbling about flash slaes that seem to last only minutes.)
Awww! Thanks. ;)
Though I don't use mcjteleblender's script to export my scenes. Indeed freebies are powerful ;) A render I done in Blender :p
Simple renders are not promos. If they aren't comparable to the other promos they simply will not used. Vendors may not competent in all renderers, and may prefer one over another and may provide shaders that may work as a base for other renderers. It still is a matter of whether the renders submitted pass the review process.
Not true.
And still the render still has to pass the review process; so really you need someone capable of producing promos, not a regular user.
well, why not shoot the same scenes in Iray and in 3D-Light as promo images? I don`t use Iray I use 3D-Light, how useful is it for me to see just the Iray result? Both versions so we as costumers and compare? Maybe you would sell much more? Think about it.
Lighting is different between the two. If the quality isn't the same, it won't pass review.
I agree, to some degree, but I would expect PAs at the DAZ store to have some knowledge of 3DL (as well as Iray) as a minimum. Also, setting up some lights, setting a background and choosing render settings is basic stuff in DS, isn't it? The hard part is creating texture sets and shader presets in my experience.
PS. Any plans for a Tynashe or Leena characater or similar based on G3F?
I wouldn't expect 3dl as a priority as Iray is now the default renderer and with new vendors coming in, they may not even used 3delight. Once again, if the iray are the better promos, they will be used.
And as far as an ethnic female character, doubtful.
Maybe that is part of my problem - I simply have too much pre-Iray and pre-Gensis 3 stuff already. I still buy G2F and G2M stuff wherever I can find it, and even V4/M4 stuff. I can't quite put my finger on why the G3F characters are not doing it for me yet. I mean, there's nothing wrong with G3F, but she's not a significant improvement over G2F. Maybe I just need to see a few decent 3DL promos of G3F to convince me.
I do know they're being developed... I have four "ethnic" women in the pipeline right now, with just as many prototyped and a couple of white girls to go alongside. Most of mine will be some flavor of Asian, but it looks like we're going to see at least a few others coming. Rendo has three in the store (never mind that two of them might as well be the same character), we got Kelly a few days ago, and so forth.
As for 3DL renders, it's really picky about how you light things, and finding lights that work well for some types of skin is nearly impossible. Lights that work for asian skin? No chance. You make them and hope it works. Iray just needs a decent HDR to use as an environment map and the headlamp turned off and you can get some solid renders without a lot of issues.
Speaking of... timmins, I'd appreciate it if you'd drop me a sitemail ;)
That's a shame (on both counts).
I get the feeling that there is a significant number of DS users who aren't going to move to Iray any time soon. Maybe Iray is DAZ's Windows 8 moment. Perhaps, like Microsoft, DAZ will loose some loyal customers along the way. Me? I'm sticking to 3DL for now (and Windows 7, until DS or Poser runs on Linux).
Actually, I don't think Iray is actually better for showing products. Since Iray became the default render engine, I've noticed the promo art, has not been as good. Colors seem muddy and washed out.. Characters's skin look muddy, green, even orange. It doesn't look better to me.
I still use 3delight and love it. I'm not swtiching to Iray anytime soon.
I have heard pa's aren't allowed to use 3delight in promo art. I wouldn't be suprised.