Product Images and Render Engines

Male-M3dia

Ashcloud said:

Male-M3dia said:

Ashcloud said:

Male-M3dia said:

Ashcloud said:

frank0314 said:

Some PA's can render Iray much easier than they can 3DL. It's a completely different setup and one may work to their ability more than the other. The people who started with 3DL can possible get decent renders out of it. Newer PA's may have only worked with Iray so your going to discredit them cause they don't know the system and end up doing bad renders that hurt the sales on the pack. Good renders in Iray usually means it will render just as good in 3DL.

That's a poor excuse. If a PA is capable of creating 3DL shader presets, he/she should be competent enough to set up a simple 3DL render.

I have no plans to use Iray anytime soon. I too do not like products that have Iray only promos. In fact, I will not buy products that have Iray only promos. Since the introduction of Iray, Genesis 3, HD characaters that cannot be loaded minus the HD morphs etc, my spend at the DAZ store has plummeted. I'm spending my 3D budget elswhere and I guess that is the bottom line. If DAZ and PAs can afford to drive away customers, then fair enough. I'm more than happy to shop elsewhere.    

Simple renders are not promos. If they aren't comparable to the other promos they simply will not used. Vendors may not competent in all renderers, and may prefer one over another and may provide shaders that may work as a base for other renderers. It still is a matter of whether the renders submitted pass the review process.

I agree, to some degree, but I would expect PAs at the DAZ store to have some knowledge of 3DL (as well as Iray) as a minimum. Also, setting up some lights, setting a background and choosing render settings is basic stuff in DS, isn't it? The hard part is creating texture sets and shader presets in my experience.   

PS. Any plans for a Tynashe or Leena characater or similar based on G3F?

 

I wouldn't expect 3dl as a priority as Iray is now the default renderer and with new vendors coming in, they may not even used 3delight. Once again,  if the iray are the better promos, they will be used.

And as far as an ethnic female character, doubtful.

 

That's a shame (on both counts).

I get the feeling that there is a significant number of DS users who aren't going to move to Iray any time soon. Maybe Iray is DAZ's Windows 8 moment. Perhaps, like Microsoft, DAZ will loose some loyal customers along the way. Me? I'm sticking to 3DL for now (and Windows 7, until DS or Poser runs on Linux).

Actually there are far more people clamoring for Iray products and shaders than 3delight. People are finding it far easier to set up and they are getting the results they want. Right now Iray and G3F is hot combination.

Steven-V

Tobor said:

I think the point is, if the product comes with 3DL shaders, it means the product oficially supports that renderer, so at least one of the promo images should show it. If a product contains only shaders/materials for a given renderer, then there is no reason to show alternative promo images. As a PA, you may feel the purpose of the promos is to sell your product. But to consumers and consumer law, the purpose of promo images is to disclose the product in a truthful and honest way. (I am not speaking of you specifically, just marketplace vendors in general.)

So it's really simple: if you include 3DL shaders, or shaders for specific to any other renderer, show at least one render using these assets. These options are a selling point for the product, and the customer should be able to see a preview of those options.

I completely agree here.  If a PA can't make decent 3DL renders, why is he or she including 3DL shaders with the product at all?

And how has one been able to, let's say, beta test and confirm that one's product in 3DL is working if one cannot, by one's own admission, get a good-looking render out of 3DL? How do you even know your product is any good if you can't make it work for yourself? Why would you expect OTHER peopel to be able to do what you cannot?

That's like writing code for Windows and Mac, but only testing it on Windows and then releasing it claiming it is 'both windows and mac compatible' and then when Mac users complain it crashes on their system, you say, 'oh sorry, I don't have a Mac to test it on.'

Serene Night

Both render engines are great, but Iray is easier for newbies. 3delight renders the fantasy style I prefer.

I wonder if DAZ has struck a deal with NVidia? Seems like it. =-) Why else aren't they showing 3delight renders any longer?

Male-M3dia

Steven-V said:

Tobor said:

I think the point is, if the product comes with 3DL shaders, it means the product oficially supports that renderer, so at least one of the promo images should show it. If a product contains only shaders/materials for a given renderer, then there is no reason to show alternative promo images. As a PA, you may feel the purpose of the promos is to sell your product. But to consumers and consumer law, the purpose of promo images is to disclose the product in a truthful and honest way. (I am not speaking of you specifically, just marketplace vendors in general.)

So it's really simple: if you include 3DL shaders, or shaders for specific to any other renderer, show at least one render using these assets. These options are a selling point for the product, and the customer should be able to see a preview of those options.

I completely agree here.  If a PA can't make decent 3DL renders, why is he or she including 3DL shaders with the product at all?

And how has one been able to, let's say, beta test and confirm that one's product in 3DL is working if one cannot, by one's own admission, get a good-looking render out of 3DL? How do you even know your product is any good if you can't make it work for yourself? Why would you expect OTHER peopel to be able to do what you cannot?

That's like writing code for Windows and Mac, but only testing it on Windows and then releasing it claiming it is 'both windows and mac compatible' and then when Mac users complain it crashes on their system, you say, 'oh sorry, I don't have a Mac to test it on.'

As I said there is a big difference between making a render to test settings and promo. I can make Poser materials and test them to see if they are OK, but I don't include promos in Poser because they get tossed because the difference in quality. It is at least a starting point for customers that want to use it with other rendering engines than not include them at all.

Tobor

Male-M3dia said:

Not true.

And still the render still has to pass the review process; so really you need someone capable of producing promos, not a regular user.

What of my comment is not true? You're making excuses for mediocre product. Any vendor is perfectly capable of sending a prepared scene to a more experienced user, who can then provide the proper lighting and render settings to make an acceptable promo image. 

You seem to be intentionally obtuse about this, so let me clarify one last time: If a product is advertised as being suitable for use with a particular output technology, but the PA cannot provide a suitable example -- or find *someone* who can -- then that product in that form should not be sold. It's as simple as that. How Daz handles unacceptable promo images isn't relevant from a consumer perspective. The fact that the product page now lacks an example of an advertised feature doesn't suddenly make it usable for a customer who has a reasonable expectation of usability.

The professional PA will understand that if a product is sold as having Feature X, but the vendor cannot him/herself demonstrate its use, it's time to call in some help. The professional PA owes it to any potential buyers who want to use Feature X so they can make a fair decision. Excuses otherwise are simply lame. (And in fact, if the omission is done with the intent to deceive, it's illegal.)

Male-M3dia

Tobor said:

Male-M3dia said:

Not true.

And still the render still has to pass the review process; so really you need someone capable of producing promos, not a regular user.

What of my comment is not true? You're making excuses for mediocre product. Any vendor is perfectly capable of sending a prepared scene to a more experienced user, who can then provide the proper lighting and render settings to make an acceptable promo image. 

You seem to be intentionally obtuse about this, so let me clarify one last time: If a product is advertised as being suitable for use with a particular output technology, but the PA cannot provide a suitable example -- or find *someone* who can -- then that product in that form should not be sold. It's as simple as that. How Daz handles unacceptable promo images isn't relevant from a consumer perspective. The fact that the product page now lacks an example of an advertised feature doesn't suddenly make it usable for a customer who has a reasonable expectation of usability.

The professional PA will understand that if a product is sold as having Feature X, but the vendor cannot him/herself demonstrate its use, it's time to call in some help. The professional PA owes it to any potential buyers who want to use Feature X so they can make a fair decision. Excuses otherwise are simply lame. (And in fact, if the omission is done with the intent to deceive, it's illegal.)

A professional PA will present their product that sells the most copies of a product. That said, and unfortunately for some users, Iray is a bigger selling point than 3DL, which is why those renders are so predominate in the store. I think it's easy for a customer to say something will sell, but unless they have sold products it is simply opinion versions someone that has experience selling. What's probably best if you're not using the rendering engine used in the promos is to try to request renders and take advantage of the 30-day policy. I'm sure vendors will be happy to provide sample renders, however, as I've said before if the quality isn't matching other renders won't be used in promos.

I'm going to bow out, because this convo is starting to go in circles and I don't think I can add much more.

Tobor

Male-M3dia said:

As I said there is a big difference between making a render to test settings and promo. I can make Poser materials and test them to see if they are OK, but I don't include promos in Poser because they get tossed because the difference in quality. It is at least a starting point for customers that want to use it with other rendering engines than not include them at all.

There are far better ways of handling this. So I understand you, are you saying your Poser materials aren't good enough for a suitable promo render, or are you saying you're not experienced enough with Poser to make an acceptable render?

If the former, you should not be including half-executed ANYTHING in your product. It's not "okay" to put in a half-baked solution and expect money for it -- people spend their hard-earned dollars on these products, and deserve better. For any asset that is not up to standard, nbut you'd like to share, you can provide it as a freebie on your Web page. This is a perfect use for Deviant Art.

But I prefer to think this isn't what you meant, and what you meant to say is that you're not familiar enough with Poser to light and render a good promo image. That's okay, find someone who is. If paying money taxes the budget, give them licenses to some of your product.

Male-M3dia

Tobor said:

Male-M3dia said:

As I said there is a big difference between making a render to test settings and promo. I can make Poser materials and test them to see if they are OK, but I don't include promos in Poser because they get tossed because the difference in quality. It is at least a starting point for customers that want to use it with other rendering engines than not include them at all.

There are far better ways of handling this. So I understand you, are you saying your Poser materials aren't good enough for a suitable promo render, or are you saying you're not experienced enough with Poser to make an acceptable render?

If the former, you should not be including half-executed ANYTHING in your product. It's not "okay" to put in a half-baked solution and expect money for it -- people spend their hard-earned dollars on these products, and deserve better. For any asset that is not up to standard, nbut you'd like to share, you can provide it as a freebie on your Web page. This is a perfect use for Deviant Art.

But I prefer to think this isn't what you meant, and what you meant to say is that you're not familiar enough with Poser to light and render a good promo image. That's okay, find someone who is. If paying money taxes the budget, give them licenses to some of your product.

I think you're not reading correctly. I said if the PROMO render is not to the same standards of the other promos it is not used. Materials in other renders are used as a convenience to users in other renderers, not just the PA's preferred renderer.

That said I think people would be more upset if the renders were Iray only and the materials were only for Iray and 3delight users had to build their own materials. That would be the alternative rather than making other renders if people make an issue of it. Even if there were renders for all potential renderers, shaders aren't perfect for every lighting condition and will still need to be adjusted regardless.

And as far getting someone to render promos, that is a long process as well and still has to pass review muster. You just don't get anyone to do your promos and some people that tried it still got burned with a rejected product because the promos didn't pass muster. Most time it is not worth the investment to do it, especially if the promo styles are too different. This is another thing that comes as part of a PA's experience that most customers don't realize. Still additional promos fall under asking additional questions about a product if the promos don't cover all your questions.

Tobor

Male-M3dia said:

I'm going to bow out, because this convo is starting to go in circles and I don't think I can add much more.

And I shall as well. I appreciate your candor, and I realize you have to conduct your business in the way you feel is best. While I don't sell 3D assets, I have been in the online retail business many years (started 1996), and I've found being thoroughly transparent with the customer wins more sales in the end. Perhaps my way of doing business isn't suitable for this market. Each market has its own expectations and peculiarities.

In closing, maybe Daz would consider a "boneyard" of additional renders -- good, bad, and ugly -- accessible from the documentation page they provide for each published product. For many items sold here, we as customers simply don't always have the luxury of seeking out the PA for a lengthy Q&A ahead of the purchase decision. This is due to Daz's practice of unpredictable sales.

As for the 30-day policy, while comforting, should be a last resort. I, for one, worry that if I start to use it I'll be considered an abuser. There's a certain level of trust involved, since Daz has no way of knowing (that I am aware) that you haven't actually kept the product. Partly because I value my Daz account, and partly because I'm very careful in what I buy, in 6+ years I've never asked for my money back. I'd prefer never to have to.

Mistara

if you go through all the trouble of creating a product, why not spend a few hours more on a decent 3de render to increase your customer potential?
Are the old artists leaving?

selling only iray products isn't going to make feel like, 'oh well, i'll have to switch to iray now'.  

back catalog +1  lol

 

Tobor

Just a quickie to show it CAN be done, and done well. Product is made for Iray and 3Delight, and shows rendered output from both for comparison.

http://www.daz3d.com/selfie-stick-and-smart-phone

Fauvist

I want to buy more.  I love the figures that have been showing up in the store in the last few days - I really want them - but I'm not going to buy them because I can only see what they look like in an Iray render.  I don't want the frustration of buying something, then testing it, then being disappointed, then returning it and requesting a refund.  It's a huge waste of time.  I think DAZ should make it a policy that every product that has shaders included for a particular render engine show a promotional image using that engine - that really shows what the product looks like.  We are not buying actual real world objects - those you make promotional images for that flatter the product as much as possible.  With digital 3D content - we are buying what it looks like. I think DAZ should stop thinking about 3D content as if it were real, and start showing how versatile it is, and how compatible it is with everything.  Why limit what you sell only to Iray users?  Because you want us to abandon what we have and know, and buy something new.  DAZ isn't selling content, they're selling NEW.

UnicornSoul

Tobor I think you are missing the obvious.

   1. The way Iray renders is very forgiving. I've seen mediocre objects and textures turn fairly decent with the magic of a single point and click iray light set up. 

   2. No one is gong to show you their bad side, especially if they are trying to make money

   3. Daz is a hobbyist market and most vendors are little more than that. The fact that anyone will tell you to buy something unseen and rely on a 30 day money back guarantee should have been           your first clue 

   4. Iray will most likely become the standard, partly because of number 1 and partly because when people call it better what they usually mean 'better than anything they could have pulled off                without Iray'

 

Oso3D

I'll point out that my trajectory pre-Iray was essentially 'get more and more like an unbiased render.' I was starting to use meshlights and Uberenvironment to fake more and more of a proper environment, and it was making renders take longer and longer.

I mean, if you drop a lot of the bells and whistles from Iray shaders and stick to basic color/gloss, you can get pretty fast renders.

 

larsmidnatt

We hit a point where 3DL users, will have to learn how to look at textures and manipulate the shaders themselves. Kinda like hitorically Daz users would be stuck with poser materials that didn't work so hot in DS. (Many consumers for a variety of reasons buy products that don't have materials that work natively in their host package, it's not new). If you want to keep using 3DL, and buying new content it is time for you to take control of the shaders. IMO you should have never waited...

people should realize daz and company only care about what sells best. Purely numbers. So asking for poser support, 3DL promos or ethnic people is a waste of time. 

And I feel bad cause we finally got a brown gal for G3F, and she was ignored :( 

cosmo71

well I will not buy a new machine just to render Iray renders in good quality and I think my renders are good enough in 3D light, check it out in my gallery :)

cosmo71

and my lighting skills are not the best, so also with 3d-light I could do much better renders I think but I use the lighting settings I have had good results in quality and for me also important, rendertimes, I have no fun if I have to wait hours. One hour is okay but most of the time my rendertimes are about 20-30 minutes and that is good.

cosmo71

Well if DAZ is going to sell only IRay products, then I have to look at other stores. I would like to see that 3D-Light will be supported also in the future. Not all of us have the money for new machines with the fitting equipment.

 

cosmo71

In all of my latest outdoor renders (except the dark london render because of the lamps) I have just used two lights, one AoA Distant and one AoA ambient light, not more.

Male-M3dia

beeboop2_575c6541d3 said:

Tobor I think you are missing the obvious.

   1. The way Iray renders is very forgiving. I've seen mediocre objects and textures turn fairly decent with the magic of a single point and click iray light set up. 

   2. No one is gong to show you their bad side, especially if they are trying to make money

   3. Daz is a hobbyist market and most vendors are little more than that. The fact that anyone will tell you to buy something unseen and rely on a 30 day money back guarantee should have been           your first clue 

   4. Iray will most likely become the standard, partly because of number 1 and partly because when people call it better what they usually mean 'better than anything they could have pulled off                without Iray'

 

# 1 is actually backwards. Iray is unforgiving when it comes to textures and will easily expose bad textures. You can get away with more using biased renders like 3delight. That's why if it looks good in iray, it will look good in other renderers.

#2. Is incorrect and quite negative. Refer to #1, as you can use tricks in 3delight to hide bad textures.

#3. Iray is the default render now. As you can see from the batch of products and the popularity of Iray that less items will have 3delight settings rather than iray ones. In the future it looks like 3delight will be included as a convenience so that 3delight users will not start from scratch. Otherwise, 3delight users will have to either pass on items or build materials from scratch.

Also note this change is based on customer demand, not DAZ or vendors.

Male-M3dia

cosmo71 said:

Well if DAZ is going to sell only IRay products, then I have to look at other stores. I would like to see that 3D-Light will be supported also in the future. Not all of us have the money for new machines with the fitting equipment.

 

Unfortunately DAZ is generally the place that had 3delight support, other stores had mostly Poser format and DS users had to adjust materials to work. There is a shift to iray in other stores for DS users as well due to Genesis 3, so the situation in other stores isn't going to be much better.

BeeMKay

Well... if the 3Delight Promo doesn't make it through the Promo-toss-out, then why not add a thread-note to the item, and post the 3Delight in the thread, as a default? That would also have the advantage that people will know where they can ask questions about the product (I mean, those who aren't forumphile). That way, everyone would win.

(Except, of course, that someone would still insist that it has to be on the product page, and hidin it in the forum is not enough, and not every PA wants to make a thread, and it can't be done, anyway, blablabla )

Tobor

Yep, there's always an excuse of why something can't be done. This thread is a good indication there *is* customer demand for a certain feature, but for some PA's that notion flies right over their heads. They'll stick to their preconceived notions.

 

scorpio

What I am a bit puzzled about is have PAs and the daz artists lost the ability to render in 3delight all of a sudden or are all those old  pre Iray promo's now considered poor quality.

 I use both Iray and 3delight to rendner in - just because one medium is new it doesn't mean the previouse one is obsolite, if a product offeres 3delight mats why not show them.

Tobor

Iray is new. At one time people bought anything if it had the word "Iray" in it -- some still do. PAs that believe this level of interest is permanent are fooling themselves. Those that were early adopters have been able to ride the Iray coat tails, but those days won't last forever.

The smart PA is already figuring out how to compete, given the customer feedback in this thread, and the many others like it. The smarter PAs also know not to keep arguing with actual customers. It's not a wise business choice. Say your peace if you must, then move on.

 

j cade

Here's a real world example for y'all. I put a render with 3delight materials in the render thread for my Dancing Slip

.

The materials for the dress are actually pretty much Identical to their Iray equivalents and look quite good even here. However, this is not something I would submit as a promo render. People have been complaining that they haven't switched to Iray because it takes to long, well for me to get a 3delight render I actually like, it usually takes 6 hours to render plus twice that to set up materials and lighting and everything else. Add to that I don't actually have any 3delight materials set up for gen3. So I decided that that extra day to make a promo would be better spent starting my next idea, or going outside. And I did this really quick render in 20 minutes and stuck it on my commercial thread.

Tobor

If you don't have any 3DL materials then you're under no obligation to include promos for it on the product page. Please don't confuse the situation. The complaint is about products that advertise support for 3DL, but lack promos to demonstrate the quality of that support.

j cade

I have 3delight materials for the dress, but not for the rest of the scene I would have to set up. That render is the 3delight materials (but I realize my comment was slightly unclear on that so I have edited it a bit)

scorpio

j cade said:

I have 3delight materials for the dress, but not for the rest of the scene I would have to set up. That render is the 3delight materials (but I realize my comment was slightly unclear on that so I have edited it a bit)

 

I've just looked at the product page (real pretty dress if I was using G3F more I would defintely pick that up. I just love the way it moves and appears to drape realistically) and most of the promos appear to be set against a backdrop style background so I'm rather confused why that would be so difficult to replicate. Besides that the scene doesn't have to be the same.

 

larsmidnatt

j cade said:

I have 3delight materials for the dress, but not for the rest of the scene I would have to set up. That render is the 3delight materials (but I realize my comment was slightly unclear on that so I have edited it a bit)

I could see this being a pain point. The rest of the scene...