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Need suggestions on rigging a Veil

BagboyBagboy Posts: 170
edited December 1969 in Technical Help (nuts n bolts)

Hello-

I'm trying to rig a floor length Bridal Veil. It also has a bit of a train. But, what rigging strategies make sense here? What needs to be considered in choosing one?

Should it be a conforming item?

I've tried rigging it roughly based on the old conforming V3 Dress Headpiece, with handles, but it has some trick around the neck that I can't seem to fathom. That is, the Dress Headpiece has a neck bone, but no assigned Neck Group. I have added my neck group to a Veil group, but it still distorts around what seems to be a hidden neck group.

It's getting confusing and messy.

I have both D/S3 advanced and D/S4Pro.

Thanks for taking a look!

Veil_rigging_illo2.jpg
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Veil_rigging_illo.jpg
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Comments

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    If rigging it for end use in DS4.x and Genesis, then at some point you'll need to convert it from a legacy figure to a weight mapped one. At that point, you'll be able to use the weight painting features of DS to smooth things out...

    Over all, rigging for DS4.x/Genesis is quite a bit easier than for 'legacy' figures.

  • BagboyBagboy Posts: 170
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:
    If rigging it for end use in DS4.x and Genesis, then at some point you'll need to convert it from a legacy figure to a weight mapped one. At that point, you'll be able to use the weight painting features of DS to smooth things out...

    Over all, rigging for DS4.x/Genesis is quite a bit easier than for 'legacy' figures.

    Thanks MJC!

    For this project, I'm stuck to V4. :-S

    As such, I can't seem to adjust the joints to smooth the veil out. Maybe I'm missing something there in the Joint Editor.

    Thanks again!

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Double check your groups...last time I had a problem with something I couldn't 'smooth' out, I had 1 vertex in the wrong group...(and it was in a group two groups 'away' from where it should have been...now THAT made for some strange results when posing).

  • BagboyBagboy Posts: 170
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:
    Double check your groups...last time I had a problem with something I couldn't 'smooth' out, I had 1 vertex in the wrong group...(and it was in a group two groups 'away' from where it should have been...now THAT made for some strange results when posing).

    Oh man! I had a lot of hope in this suggestion! :-)

    But, try as I might, I can find no stray polys :down:

    I assume you meant "polygons". Is there a way to check vertices?

    Thanks again!

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Bagboy said:
    mjc1016 said:
    Double check your groups...last time I had a problem with something I couldn't 'smooth' out, I had 1 vertex in the wrong group...(and it was in a group two groups 'away' from where it should have been...now THAT made for some strange results when posing).

    Oh man! I had a lot of hope in this suggestion! :-)

    But, try as I might, I can find no stray polys :down:

    I assume you meant "polygons". Is there a way to check vertices?

    Thanks again!

    In Blender, which is what I use, depending on your selection tool (vertex/edge/face) can lead to adding things to groups that you may not want (if you are selecting by vertex you could end up with a 'stray'...which what I probably did). Not sure if you can do that in other modellers...some will only assign whole 'faces' (polys) to a group.

    Have you looked at the model in a different program...something like UVMapper (free)?

    Another thought...are the pieces 'welded' together?

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 100,765
    edited December 1969

    Are the joint centres of the bones that match V4 bones still in exactly the same place as the V4 centres? If you switch to the Polygon group Editor in DS and look at the Tool Settings pane which groups have non-zero polygon counts?

  • BagboyBagboy Posts: 170
    edited December 1969

    Richard Haseltine said:
    Are the joint centres of the bones that match V4 bones still in exactly the same place as the V4 centres? If you switch to the Polygon group Editor in DS and look at the Tool Settings pane which groups have non-zero polygon counts?

    Hello Richard-

    I haven't moved the bones themselves in the Veil. I did fiddle with the Matrix spheres and moved them around.

    Here's a peek at the Polygon Group Editor as it now stands.

    Thanks!

    Veil_rigging_illo3.jpg
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  • BagboyBagboy Posts: 170
    edited December 1969

    mjc1016 said:

    In Blender, which is what I use, depending on your selection tool (vertex/edge/face) can lead to adding things to groups that you may not want (if you are selecting by vertex you could end up with a 'stray'...which what I probably did). Not sure if you can do that in other modellers...some will only assign whole 'faces' (polys) to a group.

    Have you looked at the model in a different program...something like UVMapper (free)?

    Another thought...are the pieces 'welded' together?

    I've been using Hexagon, but, I never quite got the handle on how to set the export settings to preserve the pieces as groupings. :red:

    So, I did all the groupings in the Polygon Group Editor within D/S4.

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    Bagboy said:
    mjc1016 said:

    In Blender, which is what I use, depending on your selection tool (vertex/edge/face) can lead to adding things to groups that you may not want (if you are selecting by vertex you could end up with a 'stray'...which what I probably did). Not sure if you can do that in other modellers...some will only assign whole 'faces' (polys) to a group.

    Have you looked at the model in a different program...something like UVMapper (free)?

    Another thought...are the pieces 'welded' together?

    I've been using Hexagon, but, I never quite got the handle on how to set the export settings to preserve the pieces as groupings. :red:

    So, I did all the groupings in the Polygon Group Editor within D/S4.

    Then the groups should be fine...

    Joint centers and endpoints are the next areas to look at (like Richard was saying)...

    Stray geometry in a group, odd groups and misaligned joints, 'wrong' influences, not 'connected' geometry, missing bones...any of those or any combination of those can cause bending/tearing problems.

  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 100,765
    edited December 1969

    try hiding all the bones and then turning them on one by one - which does the kink belong to?

  • BagboyBagboy Posts: 170
    edited December 1969

    Richard Haseltine said:
    try hiding all the bones and then turning them on one by one - which does the kink belong to?

    try hiding all the bones and then turning them on one by one - which does the kink belong to?

    It looks to me like it's part of the Veil1 group, but could also be part of the head. It's right on the edge between them.

    Oh Wow! In looking at it this way. it looks like the Twisty Matrix sphere of the head group was not covering the the veil properly! That knocked out most of the kink!

    And then pulling the Circle X's (don't know the proper names for these; in fact, I never noticed these before :red: ) down a bit finished the effect!

    Thanks! Solved!

  • BagboyBagboy Posts: 170
    edited November 2012

    mjc1016 said:

    Then the groups should be fine...

    Joint centers and endpoints are the next areas to look at (like Richard was saying)...

    Stray geometry in a group, odd groups and misaligned joints, 'wrong' influences, not 'connected' geometry, missing bones...any of those or any combination of those can cause bending/tearing problems.

    I think that was it! "Joint center and endpoints" were indeed the culprit. It escaped me when Richard mentioned it because I didn't understand that that is what those Circle Xs were called.

    Um, that is what the Circle Xs are called, right? :red: It was the ones adjustable within the Twisty parameter of the head group that did the trick..

    Anyway, thanks again for all your help in walking me through this, MJC! I was losing my mind!

    Veil_rigging_illo_8.jpg
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    Post edited by Bagboy on
  • Richard HaseltineRichard Haseltine Posts: 100,765
    edited December 1969

    Thos are the twist handles, anything between them twists partially, anything abovetwists fully and anything below doesn't move - they are equivalent to the angle lines for bends. They run along the bone, which suggests that your bone isn't currently aligned with the geometry.

  • BagboyBagboy Posts: 170
    edited December 1969

    Richard Haseltine said:
    Thos are the twist handles, anything between them twists partially, anything abovetwists fully and anything below doesn't move - they are equivalent to the angle lines for bends. They run along the bone, which suggests that your bone isn't currently aligned with the geometry.

    Good stuff to know! Finding those Twist Handles helped me get over the hump.

    I think the view I posted before was a bit misleading as I had twisted the (invisible) parent V4 head a little and the veil was skewed accordingly.

    Here's another angle on it. Hope it looks more properly aligned!

    Thanks again for all your help throughout, Richard!

    Veil_rigging_illo_9.jpg
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