Method of selecting 1st-3rd and HM place in monthly challenges
Diomede
Posts: 15,125
Regarding the method of choosing 1st place, the instruction invite comments. I received a PM making the following points.
A prolific artist can win by entering three mediocre images, while the artist who labored hard to perfect one superb image might lose. Additionally, the idea of submitting more than one entry into a contest isn't really rational (unless the contest is to see who can create the most images in the allotted time). If the judges are trying to select the best image, then the artist ends up competing against himself by submitting more than one entry.
This is a conversation worth having. I can see several different perspectives on the way we choose the top 3 and honorable mention.
First, on the numbers - They say songwriting teams always have a perfectionist and a polymath. The perfectionst would never finish on his/her own because there is always room for improvement. The polymath would never finish on his/her own because would move on to the next project before finishing. I don't have the answer but am willing to listen. The current rules reward multiple submissions for the top prize but not for 2nd or 3rd. That seems to try to strike some balance, but shouldn't the top prize go to the top image?
Second, on the posts - having votes posted in the thread could be a great way to get feedback. On the other hand, most of the time people provide real time feedback during the WIP stage. Currently, the votes are primarily a simple list of numbers. A secret ballot might make people more comfortable with voting.
Third, on the jury - I know that I do not have a trained eye for important attributes such as composition, etc. Would it be possible to recruit a panel, perhaps of forum mods? In practice, this might not be feasible, and participants might not get feedback on why one image was chosen over another because the jury would not necessarily participate in the WIP thread. Trade-offs.
For the present challenge, I will keep the voting rules as posted because people should know the rules during the time they work on their images. However, I will start another thread (EDIT: this thread) on the voting rules for the challenges. I encourage people to express their preferences. I am also happy to serve as an intermediary if people want to send PMs. Future challenges could experiment.
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Comments
Regarding honorable mention, people need to start skipping that part when voting IMO, it's unnecessary, I imagine that it can be even seen by some as "your image barely made it onto my list of images I like" (not me, I'm a tough MF, I have a thick skin like a lizzard, lol) ...
HM should simply be fourth image which qualifies
Another thing: Like any other more complex forum software, I'm sure that this one has voting included, DAZ is obviously NOT using it, dunno how useful it would be to talk to the DAZ admins about it and turning that feature on but only for mods
Cheers
Regarding the comment that entering more than one image makes no sense for a contest... I think the person who wrote that profoundly misunderstands the purpose of these challenges. If you go back to the very beginning and read the earliest comments it is clear that the point is not to win or to pick the best image; the point of the entire thing is to get people using Carrara and trying things in Carrara that they never have before. It is more of a Carrara showcase with incentives than a contest. There is a reason they are called "challenges" and not "contests."
From that perspective it makes more sense to allow multiple entries because the idea is to find many creative/interesting uses of Carrara, not the "best" image.
If you are coming late to the whole thing I can see how that might get missed though, so I understand why that comment was made and this isn't meant as an attack on the person who sent you that comment, just pointing out the flawed premise.
Open voting ,. helps reduce the possibility of rigging. ,. or, at least, makes it more difficult.
I think any feedback should be done in the Wip's thread,. and Voting, in the voting thread.
Although there are prizes for these challenges,. and a "Winner" is chosen,. ..I personally think the focus should be on the artwork, rather than who win's or how many awards are handed out.
Everyone could get a diploma, and a letter of congratulation,. but those are pretty much meaningless,. (unless you run a business selling diploma's) :)
EG: Worlds' Best DAD.
in the last thread,. I thought about five or six entry's were all great, and deserved to be "winners". but we can't vote for everyone,. it's about picking a single winner.
Even If all an entrant did was load some premade products and render . ...it can still be seen as a "good image",. even if the user doesn't know exactly why yet.
it's the image that we're voting for,. and we choose the one we "like" the best,. and that's a personal preference.
Ideally the voter should be unaware of who made the image,. how long it took,. etc. then you're voting Blind ,.no bias, you choose the image you like the best.
Multiple images, and competing against yourself, can actually push you more than just doing it once, ...Go bigger, faster, better..
and,. if at first you don't succeed,. try, try,... try, again.
It should also be FUN, with a capital F U N. don't get too serious,. learn from others, get ideas, laugh occasionally,. enjoy doing it.
Also,. a general themed "image" competition is all good,. but, specific "feature's" competitions, such as lighting, or modeling, ..those would be different, since they're more focused on showing a specific skill, or achieving a specific goal,. but that can be less inclusive. more elitist,. and sadly, more pretentious.
EG: The Oscar for 3D model texturing in an interior scene,.. goes to,...
Well, tehnically speaking, if there are prizes, it's more of the contest than a challenge ...
Personally, I see it as both, as a contest which challenges peole to do something in Carrara they never did, get them out of their comfort zone, helps them learn something new while producing render they can be proud of
@Diomede
I knew i've read something about it before and it was in this thread http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/comment/644869/#Comment_644869 (Worth reading if only for an epic exchange between Dudu and Stezza)
So, according to this post, you're the one who introduced the current rule
and you had excellent reasons at the time. Also, one of the few standing rules of this challenge is that the host is absolute master and has tyranical power, so, if yo want to change it, for both those reasons, just do it. The challenge has just started and it's still time.
@Philemo
Somebody has been paying attention! I am caught.
The pattern is that if I win, something must be wrong wth the voting system!
I am not going to change the voting rule even though I have the power to do so as all powerful dictator, which I admit that I am this month. I am not changing it because I don't want to change the rule. However, I received the PM quoted above, and it does make some good points, and future all powerful dictators might wish to consider those points when deciding on their own rule.
Furthermore, please don't discuss the rule in the WIP thread during my tenure as dictator.
Discuss the voting rule here, or send me a PM, and I will post your comment here for you. I copied the introduction from the previous challenge, which included the invitation to comment on the voting rule. I will delete that invitation.
So let it be written, so let it be done.
I hope a humorous tone was conveyed by the emoticons, not a serious tone.
I don't participate with the intent to win. I participate to learn and share. As do many others. Given that we have prizes, I just want rules that will encourage as many people to participate as possible. I admit I don't know what those rules are.
Just my little contribution
In the Bryce challenge, and also in the contests that the CV team run (New Users and Freebie challenge) although members can submit more than one entry, they can only win one prize. Votes are tallied for each individual image, on a blind judging thread. (This shows the images and the image title, doesn't give artist name) This thread Shows you what I mean. If a member does have more than one image in the short list for prizes, then only the highest scoring image of theirs will be counted, the others are discarded.
@Chohole - Thank you for your thoughtful reply. That does seem like a good system. Another possibility is the way that the RRRR challenge does it. They use survey monkey and people anonymously rank their favorite images. First place rankings get more points than 2nd and so on. There are several reasonable ways to select worthy images. I'm fine with any of them.
Happy to discuss - HERE (not in my WIP thread).
Yes I am wondering whether to change to Survey monkey. At the moment I do ask the CVs and sometimes Mods to vote, and add a couple of anonymous guest judges to try and make sure I have some input from knowledgeable Brycers. When it is open forum voting, and even to a certain extent using a designated judging team, they do tend to vote for pretty pictures, and not on the skills used in the program being used, if you see what I mean.
I'm reliably informed, that the use of a "tazer" or cattle prod, can, when necessary, provide an appropriate level of encouragement to those unwilling to participate.
I would also imagine that this method of encouragement could be applied equally, and perhaps more liberally, to those who over participate.
just a thought.
I found your tone very slightly humorous. ... may i remind you Sir,. that this is a serious discussion ? ! ?
Well, as I remember when the challenge started we used a system similar to what Chohole mentioned with each image counting as itself but an artist could only win once.
Personally, I think the main purpose of the challenge is to have fun and to encourage people to use Carrara more. The inclusion of the wip also makes it a great place to pick up tips and tricks. Who wins shouldn't really matter too much. As far as I am concerned, the how we vote is not that important except I don't think we should have to leave the daz to vote (ie survey monkey).
Well when w e started the challenges (nb not contests ) it was all about getting a sense of community. I think in a lot of ways that has worked. The prizes were another way of attracting people.For the first one I initially sent a lot of p m s to people and asked them to contribute ... To get the show on the road so to speak. It's all about sharing.
in the past I feel a lot of people have not entered or try not to win, because doing a good job of Hosting is a pita. So the new rule about not having to host is a blessing.
For me the rules as they are work quite well.
eg upto three images
1st is the person with the most votes forall their images - this encourages more participation.
2nd is the person with the most votes for a single image
3rd is the person with the second most votes for a single image
(with the proviso as has been suggested that a person cannot win two prizes)
The grey area is the HM - which I would prefer was used as an enouragement for a new user.
Of course 'new user' is a hard definition. That has to be in the eye of the voter.
After all, one (not the only) reason to have these challenges is to show what Carrara can do and so attract new users.
I think if we start getting uppity about the voteing being rigged etc then we are taking ourselves too seriously and should perhaps remove the prizes.
That said, I think an important rule is to have WIPs and to show the scene within Carrara - that way we make sure things are really done in Carrara - I'm not at all saying that there have been images that have been done in other programes!
but having a rule like that is a 'makesafe' to avoid the possibility.
diomede, I've a suggestion for voting 1st place, here it is: "Any one voter should have to vote for 4 *different* artists and not vote more than once for the same artist. Eg: 1st JoeArtist, 2nd JoeArtist, 3rd JoeArtist and HM JaneArtist" Does that make any sense?
[Edit]
Now you've gone an done it... I'm cornfused. :) What if anyone models in another program, blender, hexagon etc. could it be used in the render? What about using a renderer like Luxus, Octane or LuxCore? While I presently use Carrara for both I'm hoping to have a choice to use Luxcore or Luxus in the distant future. I doubt you are speaking of either but could you clarify my dense little mind?
here is a copy of the current rules 2-7 as they are mostly for your discussion.
as you can see for Lux Core, Octane etc. it is covered by rule number 4.
The one thing I am noting lately and I am as guilty as the rest, in some cases there is only one WIP and it only shows the picture as rendered or a couple of variations of it, but not any Carrara Screenshots.
Which brings ou back to number 3.
2. Images must be new (previously unpublished).
3. Images must be primarily set up in Carrara.
4. Images must be rendered in Carrara or in an external renderer for which there is a Carrara plug-in (e.g. LuxRenderer, Octane).
5. At least one WIP (work in progress) image must be posted to the WIP thread that includes how the hair function was used in the scene
7. Screen shot of the scene in Carrara to be included in WIP - (sorry added this later).
Hi John :)
even if you used Luxrender or OctaneRenderer to render the final image,. or you used some other modeler to create objects,. the point is that you're creating your scene using Carrara, even if your render is rendered through the luxus plugin or octane plugin,. those are both plugins running inside Carrara. so you're still using carrara to build the major part of your scene, and render it.
:)
Do you think we could get a jury of people from the other forums or mods, rather than vote among ourselves?
sorry John just saw this.
good question
sure I use conetnt for nearly everything and I am sure a lot of it wasn't made in Carrara!
but in the end it's all about using Carrara as much as we can, that part is pretty important.
after all, it is the Carrara forum ;)
Does anyone want to coordinate the next challenge?
If you haven't coordinated and want to try, or just enjoy coordinating, this may be your opportunity! Otherwise, I will start a WIP thread early next week. Feel free to send me a PM or make suggestions here.
Diomede, I will be happy to see you again in this role.
I'm too busy to do a coodination I'm afraid but I had an idea for theme if anyone wants to run with it, either now or park it for the future. I think a good learning exercise is to take a picture that you like (painting, photo etc) and try to recreate the essence of it in a render - not necessarily try to copy the image perfectly, but try to capture what it is in the image that appeals to you. It might be the lighting, a particular pose or character, some scenary that catches your eye, whatever. So take that particular element from a non-rendered source and try to create that in a render. It can be a useful learning exercise, and you could show both the source image and your version of it in the submission.
Just a thought, use it (or ignore it) as you will!
I can do it again no problems.
thanks for helping us out again Chickenman.
and for helping me out too!
Unfortunately circumstances will keep me away from my computer (afmc) for most of the next challenge so was unable to host it - apologies.
No Problem