HD Expression Morphs, Please
aaráribel caađo
Posts: 686
Perhaps my biggest frustration with Daz and Genesis 3 is that there isn't enough geometry on the base level for a huge range of expressions. This is especially true for female characters, since women often have much more movement in their eyebrows than men. Google Emelia Clarke Eyebrows for an exaggerated example (there are videos devoted to the Queen of Dragon's most amazing eyebrow movements—clearly, to mother dragons, you must be able to communicate with your face).
Since importing level 2+ morphs doesn't work for non-PAs, an HD expression set is the only way we'll get not just eyebrow motion, but nose wrinkling, chin dimpling, and myriad other things actual skin on real faces does when making expressions.
Please, please, please, somebody make this!
Daz 3D is part of 
Connect
DAZ Productions, Inc.
224 S 200 W, Suite #250
Salt Lake City, UT 84101
Licensing Agreement | Terms of Service | Privacy Policy | EULA
© 2024 Daz Productions Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Comments
One of the problems is starting with Genesis 3 there is now a 'complete' facial rig. So expressions are no longer entirely morphs, but rather are poses.
And there are a couple of things with that rig that make it hard to work with...the first being the fact that most of the bones are hidden, by default. This is because they are linked to the 'main' bones and most of the time that's fine, but with the limits on them (#2) it's pretty hard to push them to more than a 'hint' of an expression (although a couple seem to go too far the other way). The third is how the rig interacts with morphs...sometimes it plays well, but others you end up with things like the eyes doing really strange things...so it makes it harder to come up with combination morph/pose expressions.
None of those are enough to make doing it impossible...but it does add to the level of complexity and work involved...and I guess nobody has thought there would be enough interest to put all the time and effort into it...but it wouldn't surprise me to see something before the next version of Genesis is released.
Interesting. I had no idea it would be so complicated. At least now I can think of something Genesis 4 could add that would make me want to switch over from Genesis 3.
There's more than 50 new bones involved in the face (I think it's 63, but I'm not 100% sure).
Hi mjc1016, Thanks for the info on face rigging in G3F, I hadn't realised it was so difficult. It seems strange that DAZ3d have manage to so significantly improve the body rigging of Genesis 3 compared with say V4/M4/K4 and yet make a face control system which is so difficult to use. This seems to be a backwards step compared to V4 where you could morph almost any expression since the polygon count was quite high (nearly 4 times that of G3F).
There are professional level figures made for films and some games which seem to allow for extremely realistic expressions. Do you know how this is achieved? Is it a combination of many bones and high polygon count?
IssacNewton, one thing to consider is how the expression interacts with other high resolution details that may be used in a given character. Another is how noticeable certain expressions are with certain other features; I have a full, bushy beard, so for someone to actually notice when I'm smiling, I have to exaggerate it quite a bit.
For those there are add-ons for the high-end graphics programs (Max, Maya, etc) that make using full facial rigs easier...or because of the rig, it is possible to use facial mocap data. In Studio we have the rig, but no easy way to use it, nor do we have the more detailed mocap data.
It seems like some aspects of the latest DAZ3d portfolio of characters have been made with professional users in mind. On the one hand I can understand that DAZ wants DS to be recognised by the CG industry, but if this is at the cost of making life more difficult, or making their figures less useful, for their core client base, namely the home CG enthusiast, then they are risking alienating the very folks who buy their products. The professional CG houses are not going to add much to the DAZ3d coffers, whatever DAZ puts into their figures, they already have better!
Please DAZ3d, take note of your primary customer base and make features which are both useful and accessible.
The face rig, I hope, will become more useful in newer generations (software and characters/figures)...a major update to PowerPose that would allow for the facial rig would go a long way to providing that access (and you don't even need access to every bone...just more than there is now).
I second the need for an HD expression pack. It is very difficult to get a really natural expression out of G3...which is why I suspect most character sales renders are done with the "bored model" look. Getting a good expression without looking like a cartoon is key. Even many of the pro expression pose packs currently available have terrible looking renders. I'd love to have more control over how a character smiles or just dialing in a few choices.
Hi Professional animation studios have solutions like this
Note the dedicated control interface for operating the facial rig.
Honestly I sometimes get the feeling that Genesis 3 was Designed by a committee of people working remotely from each other in disparate locations of the planet.
The genesis facial rig was a good idea in theory but not very intuitive without a dedicated interface to operate that part of the rig.
In the case of professional animation tools, aren't the models used generally in their final form, rather than a base that can be altered at will at any time? Maybe I'm missing it, but that difference alone in my mind would impact how the facial rig was designed.hl
As long as the bones in the model's rigging are correctly named/assigned the interface will work correctly...so it won't really matter much if it's morphable or 'final'. Genesis 3's bones don't change name, so a generic control interface should work. Custom tweaks/profiles for some of the more extreme morphs may be needed. For a look at a very basic skeletal control interface, already contained within Studio...look at Power Pose.
Agreed
In a typical animation pipeline a low res version of the character is used to create the animation without the overhead
of having to deform the hi res mesh in real time
( however that is changing as graphics hardware is getting better)
in any case the bones are the same for each version of the figure so mocap Data (body or face) is transferable between the two.
wolf359... now that is what I'm talking about!
Wouldn't it be great to have that kind of flexibility for the genesis3 figure. Or is that a practical impossibility?
There are a couple of them http://www.daz3d.com/xtreme-expressions-hd-for-genesis-3-female and http://www.daz3d.com/xtreme-forehead-wrinkles-hd-for-genesis-3-male-s
The xtreme expressions for g3f are useful to an extent, but once again due to the limitation of HD technology for Genesis3 being for PAs only, we are limited to a small subset of expressions which a PA has produced.
The kind of flexibility shown in wolfs video might be available to PAs but not to us mere clients.
Wouldn't it be great if we could all produce an almost infinite variety of subtle expressions (not just extreme ones) in Genesis3. Imagine the increase in the quality of artwork possible. Maybe it's just a pipe dream.
Yeah, the video has a whole new system that would have to be set from the ground up in DS and the figures.
The facial rig is available to be used...just hidden. And without a controller/interface, it's a real pain to work with. Most of what's done in the video is poses, not morphs....and that's the advantage of having a full facial rig.
And HD details, any.,,not specifically ones for expressions, should work with the facial rig. It's all down to how to control it...
mjc1016 wrote: "Most of what's done in the video is poses, not morphs". That's a good point. So in fact the question should be; why isn't there a controller interface for posing the Genesis 3 face?
If the facial rig is available, why is it hidden? Why do we have to rely on morph dials only? It seems like we have been given a Formula 1 race car with a speed limiter built in.
Is this a question of something being held back or is it to do with an incomplete system? I could understand that DAZ3d might have designed the face rig but not had enough time/money/resourses to finish the job of making a controller interface in time for the release of Genesis3. However Genesis 3 is not new, it has been around for a while, so if the face rig really is available and useable why haven't DAZ3d released a controller interface, themselves or via a third party plugin? This all seems somewhat strange.
PAs are given a facial rig overlay that correspond with the bones in the face, but as far as I'm aware, a lot of us don't use them, and to be honest it's not that great of a system and I always end up going with custom expressions that are created specifically for my characters. That being said, the bones of the upper face rig are accessible in the Scene tab under Head>Upper Face Rig. From there you can manipulate different parts of the face to create and save expressions. To get a more extreme expression, a morph will have to be created. Most of my expression morphs are not created in HD, because I find it easier to manipulate a low res mesh rather than a higher one. I believe Daz considers subdivision 2 and above to be "HD".
I can't find that.
If you don't see it then it's hidden and you'll need to unhide it...select the head in the Scene tab and then the options box for the Scene tab and select Show Hidden Nodes.
Also why does the Genesis 3 lack HD creature creator with HD skin textures for each of the preset characters. Why are there only vampires and zombies, like seriously how many zombie characters does the Genesis 3 have akready. I hope a PA can make HD creature creator with HD skin presets for Genesis 3 as well aside from the HD expressions.