3D Rigging? WeightMapping?
pfunkyfize
Posts: 475
Hi all,
I have been successfully making my own shoes for G3F and also making wearable presets but when I load the shoes to a blank scene with no G3F attached to them they come out looking like they were rolled over by a truck. I see that some PAs have managed to port their wearable shoe presets to the stage without looking like they've been run over. In this render i have my pair of shoes next to lilflame's Overknee Boot. Her boot when loaded to an empty scene comes out looking fine but mine come out looking like mashed potatoes.
https://cdn.pximg.xyz/fa84a2ecb1e623a8a5ea33ae47df513b.jpg
I sent a message to lilflame asking how she does it but in hindisght I doubt she'd answer so close to a busy time of the year for PAs so I figure I pester the forum ;)
This is what they look like when the wearable preset is applied to a G3F:
So i know the shoes work when there is a G3F in the scene but loading them as a stand alone item makes them crumple up and die. Unlike Lilflame's boot which is what I am trying to figure out if I need to do something in the rigging or the weightmapping or both to have my shoe come out looking whole and rigid like her boot....
Thanks!
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Two things come to my mind.
One - you have something selected in the scene when loading the shoe and the program is trying to "fit to" that item, despite not being compatible. This results in the weird effect.
Another idea is that you are moving the shoes not by their root bone but by some other part which WILL distort the figure when not worn by G3F.
If none of the above, can you load the shoe WITHOUT ANYTHING IN THE SCENE and use the joint Editor to show me the rigging of the shoe?
Thanks for the advice Thomas,
I know what you're speaking of in the first instance, I had set the shoes too close to the boot but without selecting the boot and the wearable preset tried autofitting it to the boot.
So far I have not tried moving the shoes, when i loaded them to the scene I used the alt+click and drag the icon from content library to import them to the spot I wanted them to appear in the same way I did the boot.
If it helps describe how i built the shoes i followed the youtube video here to rig and weightmap them.
Here is what the bone layout looks like:
Thanks again for the input!
Ah, I see where the problem is.
At minute 13:55 your tutor instructed you to bake the joint rotation of your shoes so it fits on flat feet. Which is basically not what you want to do. Your shoes basically look like they should in there.
I prefer a different method - have the heels NOT fit flat feet as that type of footwear will NEVER land in that pose. Ever.
Basically you could follow that tutorial but simply NOT flatten the feet. Do the weight mapping on the correct pose and it should work out fine.
Or if I am not mistake, you could have the shoes bend their feet-bones to the correct pose. Which will make them look like they should...
Thanks for all of that!
I will, I'm excited to try as you suggested.
I also discovered that lilflame's boots do not have little or big toe bones. the foot/toes and metatarsals are there but no big toe or little toe bones. That could explain a lot too.
Off to give this a whirl! Thanks!
Well, do tell me if it worked.
If not - we're gonna try some other solutions.
Hey well the good news is that the method of skipping the flat footed pose works as you suggested. i was able to move my shoes to the stage and not have it go flat as a pancake. Thanks for the great suggestion!
There was an anomaly that popped up right after fitting it though to G3F. i noticed toe deformations in the shoes after I fit them to G3F. However, I made a guess and removed all the toe bones from the shoe and it straightened the deformations out. Then i promptly lost power and have to do it all over again now that it's back.
My next question is how do you get the deformations out of the toe without removing toe bones? I wonder if I am not doing enough weightmapping. I do what the tutorial tells me, smooth the foot bone areas and paint the heel bone area. When you weight map something do you use the paintbrush over the entire surface of the shoe for a selected bone? When do you use the paint brush vs the smooth brush? I kind of guessed that the entire high heel needs to be rigid so I use the paint brush for that but why not have the entire shoe painted red since in real life the shoe constrains the foot and not the other way around....
Anyway, I am going to try it again now that I have power back... Thanks for the brilliant ideas!
The question is, not how to remove the deformations without removing the toe bones...but do you really need the toe bones to begin with or how many do you need.
If the shoes are thin enough to bend in the toe region then you need at least 1 bone there. But if they are not bendable (and those thick, wooden/cork soles look like Jennifer Walters (She Hulk) would have to be wearing them to bend them), then you don't need any. And really, there's a lot of shoes that are supposed be rigid in that area, so the bones aren't really needed.
So I just got done with the grand experiment and the deformations return even after i save the item as a figure asset. Then I reload a new G3f and the new shoes and the shoes deform once again. Though the great news is I can load them on to the scene without them looking like they were run over by a bus. So that part is solved but because I am skipping the flat footed pose section in the video . i will try that next mjc,I will chop out the bones in the shoe before attempting the rigging process and see how that goes...
If I do this ebough i am going to write my script that deletes foot bones...
Just got done with the run through of taking bones out right after the transfer utility step where the rigging/bones get transferred and I still get the same result at the end. The item is fine and looks good right after the final fit to G3F. Then i save it as a wardrobe/wearable preset. When i clear the scene and apply the wearable preset the shoes come out deformed again.
It seems like whatever Allen is doing in that flatfooted pose keeps the item from being warped at wearing time but crushed if loaded on to the scene by itself unattached to a G3F.
These are the steps I follow as per Allen's video. Maybe you can poke holes in the logic?
Allen's Document:
-------------------------------------
Load the Genesis 3 Figure into a new blank scene and reapply the foot pose
Record the value of ‘pJCMFootDwn_75_L’ and ‘pJCMFootDwn_75_R’. If your initial pose was symmetrical, the two values should be the same. The clipboard is your friend. You may need to turn on Show Hidden Properties in the options menu of the Parameters Tab. They should be easy to find in the ‘Currently Used’ parameter group.
Switch to the Joint Editor tool and with the Genesis 3 Figure selected, click Edit>Bake Joint Rotations...’ from the Tool Settings Tab options menu. The ankles of the figure should shift as the pose becomes the new zero state, causing the JCMs to turn off due to the lack of value in the driving Controller.
Re-apply the value noted/copied in Step 4 to both ‘pJCMFootDwn_75_L’ and ‘pJCMFootDwn_75_R’. This will restore the figure to it’s original shape, the shape to which your shoes were modeled to fit.
Import your shoes. If you modeled your shoes as a SubD model, you will need to convert them to SubD in Studio by selecting them in the Scene Tab, and clicking ‘Edit>Geometry>Convert to SubD…’ in the Scene Tab options menu.
Run the Transfer Utility by clicking ‘Figure>Transfer Utility...’ from the Edit menu.
Apply the following settings in the Transfer Utility dialog:
Source Scene Item: Genesis 3 Female
Source Item Shape: Current
Target Scene Item: <filename of the imported shoes>
Target Item Shape: Default
Leaving all other Options at their default, click Accept.
Select the root node of your shoes and apply a zero value to the two above mentioned JCMs. (‘pJCMFootDwn_75_L’ and ‘pJCMFootDwn_75_R’) They will appear in the ‘Currently Used’ group of the Parameters Tab. Also, If your shoes are SubD, the Resolution Level of your shoes will revert to ‘Base’. I recommend setting it back to ‘High Resolution’ prior to continuing.
Select the root of the wearing figure and zero the Pose Controls that comprise your figure pose. Again, the parameters in question should appear in the ‘Currently Used’ group in the Parameters Tab. Do NOT zero, restore, or apply a pose to the figure to accomplish this, particularly at this stage.
Select and smooth the weights of your shoes and flood fill any high heel geometry into the Left and Right Heel bones, all while keeping this pose. (This is a severe glossing over of this complicated step and more information is pending) The effort taken in this step will define how your shoes appear in degrees of rotation other than the pose for which they were modeled, including the zeroed “T-Pose”. However, regardless of that effort, your shoes will appear correct in your intended pose, making this step somewhat optional but highly recommended.
Return to the Joint Editor tool and with the Shoes selected, click Edit>Bake Joint Rotations...’ from the Tool Settings Tab options menu.
Unfit the Shoes from Genesis 3, and delete the Genesis 3 figure from the scene.
Export a temporary OBJ file of your shoes, making sure to do so at Base resolution.
Zero the Currently Used JCMs in the shoes. (‘pJCMFootDwn_75_L’ and ‘pJCMFootDwn_75_R’)
From the Scene Tab options menu, select Edit>Geometry>Update Base Geometry. Click OK with the ‘Update Vertex Position’ setting and choose the OBJ file you saved in Step 15. This “bakes” the appropriate amount of the JCM’s deformation/effect into the base shape of your shoes, relative to your specific pose requirements. At this stage, your shoes likely look funny because their shape has had the ‘high heeled’ pose reverse out of them.
Load a new Genesis 3 Female figure and fit the shoes.
---------- End Document ---------
Lilflame has seemed to have figured it out for her Overknee boot and Foxy Pumps etc. so i am interested in making this work since it seems possible.
I should also add that the shoe was created in Hexagon and i used smoothing on it. I never hit the SubD switch in any of my shoes so my objects are always at Base level for resolution level.
Thanks!
Save it as a figure/prop asset...that will 'fix' the structure of the item in a permanent fashion and provide a 'base' item to work from. The wearable preset is for items that are already figures/props.
Yep tried it.
The result is the same, after the initial success of it fitting I saved it as a figure/prop asset. Then I started fresh and loaded in a new G3F and then posed her then fit the prop to her and it was a mangled mess.
When I rig shoes for Genesis and G2F, It works as expected - I can rig shoes that don't come out warped at wear time and they can be loaded to the scene unconformed to a figure and they don't appear mangled. But I have to do the rigging a bit differently.
In my Genesis/G2F method I do these steps:
1. I Create face groups for the .obj shoes for lFoot and lToe and then rFoot and rToe
2. Then I load the G2F/Gen figure into the Figure setup pane, add the .obj i wanted to rig, choose the rigging type, content type and bones from the character to transfer to the obj and hit accept. The object comes on to the scene but the bones are in a chaotic state but the shoe is no longer a prop, it is now a figure.
3. I solve the chaos by transferring the rigging from Gen/G2f to the shoe figure- then make sure the shoe is not conformed to figure
4. I use the Transfer utility to transfer a basic weight map to the shoe figure and then it fits the shoe to the character figure and it becomes a jumbled mess again.
5. I solve the jumbled mess by transferring rigging again to the shoe figure and making sure the shoe is not fit on to figure
6. I confirm that the default weight maps are in place
7. i fit the shoe to test its rigging and it fits perfectly.
8. Then I would unconform the shoe and use the joint editor tool to memorize rigging and it's over. New perfect shoes that fit and don't mangle and can be loaded to a scene without conforming to a character and mangling itself .
I can't seemt to use the above steps on G3F because the shoes come out deformed after the Transfer Utility. The difference seems to be a heel bone and a bunch of little toe bones from the previous Genesis and G2F models. However the procedure works for both Genesis and G2F even with the difference in foot bones between those two. I may try some different things with G3F and go back to trying out the Gen/G2F process like taking the toe bones and the heel bone out because the heel gets mangled as well.
I switched to that youtube version for G3F because i can successfully rig the shoe but as i mentioned earlier, it's a hot mess when the shoe is loaded by itself and not fit to a G3F.
No you can not make perfect fit shoes for "both status".
stetus1 " zero pose" , ( it never deform, when it fit to Actor zero pose.. if it was effected,, it simply means, the shoe rigging not much with genesis3.)
status2 "fitted pose" with Actor" (transfered JCM to the shoes for foot posing, and deformed by weight map and each rig rotation)
then Allen prefer status2 "the shoes keep best shape, when fit to Actor" adjust weight map a little, for zero pose to reduce the problem. but it neveer means,, the shoes can keep clean shape for both posing.
But if I were you,, and I hope to load the shoes only with out hard deformed, then plan to use it as if scene prop, ,, Actor pick shoes up etc, or open shoes box for Xmas present)
I choose another "status 3" (when load to the scene,, shoes already foot pose, but not defromed by JCM. because ,just load shoes without Actor then not auto-follow JCM.)
the shoes can keep clean without Actor, because the shoes already keep posing..(already deformed by weight map, but not auto-follow JCM) when load to the scene.
when it fit to Actor,,with foot pose,, it just deformed by Auto follow JCM (which Allen planed to work) .
to load shoes as status 3,, I just need load shoes, and aooply foot pose for the shoes then save it as preset (character, or subset etc) then use it to load the shoes.
I have a hunch about what's wrong, but I'll need to confirm this.
I'll do some tests when I come back from work and I'll return to your problem.
If there is more smart way than Arren suggested, (which can fit about all situation, fool pose , zero pose,, fit to Actor or without Actor), I really apreciate,
but to be frankly said, I can not believe it.
without make the high heel as geo graft item, and hide foot. when fit to.
if you just color weight map more weak, and adjust shoes not bend much,, . maybe abouot some stuff it work well, but it means,, the weight map of the shoes not
much as same as genesis3 foot. after all, with posing more, , it show more clear defomation.
the more weight map close to genesis3 foot, the more the shoes are bend along to genesis 3 foot. then your shoes deform much with zero pose. but it is correct.. the shoes actually bend along to the genesis3 foot. then can fit genesis3female with fit pose.. and the shape (fit pose) is best shape of the shoes(high heel)
. after all,, we need to choose when High heel show best shape with Actor.
you can reduce problem by weight map, or adding another moprh too. but to show good shape of shoes with zero pose,, adding another corrective morphs , make things more complex.
(usually it just work well with current pose) ,then if you make such morph for genesis3female base,, you must need to make for all character , without it,, the shoes never keep good rigid shape for zero pose and fit pose.)
If morphs are an issue, I could set a Rigidity Map there.
Anyway - I'm busy today, but I'll have to give it a whirl during the week.
If I find a better way - I'll inform you.
Thanks all,
I am also hoping to hear back from lilflame to see how she did her footwork on foxy pumps and overknee boot because that is how I am going to model my solution on, I will look into all suggestions and if itsimulates what lilflame accomplishes I will pursue it.
I think,, the more see your first pic (It is well done,, I do not know if I can make as same as you),, the more,, the shoes need to load with current posing from the structure about sole and heel.
you can rotate it,, keep the structure, but it not bend with multi rigs , if bend smooth , the structure should break. (zero pose) ..
then actually your shoes is good with fit pose (the shoes need to keep good shape) why you hope,, load with zero pose rigs,,, ?
your shoes structure are not same as foxy pumps and overknee boot. (sorry,, but I really feel you do already good job enough
)
Are you suggesting just using the basic weightmap that gets transferred with the Transfer Utility and not paint weight to the heel solidly or do you mean use the smoothing brush more?
I am happy to report that lilflame answered my message and it felt like I was talking with a rockstar!
Lilflame's answer:
"The problem is that you will need to do new and overwrite the old JCM, that are made with transfer for Genesis 3. There is few different ways to make shoes for G3, I just took the way to do completely new JCM, so the shoes look nice, with or without G3.."
So my next question would be, how do I overwrite the JCM that comes with the transfer utility?
if you hope to bend more, like Rubber shoes, you may try more smooth , between all foot child node and node weight map. then it become more smooth bend with each node rotation. but it will remove sole rigid shape.
on the other hand, to keep rigidity when node rotate about sole , need to color weight map Uniform for vertices about the area As far as possible. and limit smooth area. but it means, the shoes not fit with many posing. (eg bend fingers,, or bend material, from foot pose), If I need to keep rigidity for some part , I use "Selection t anylysis" to check weight values are uniform or not,, and color weight by Fill color weight option with selection at first. then use smooth brush.
But My suggestion is you do not need to adjust weight map so serious for zero pose about your shoes. if it worked well before for foot pose,, and when you rotate foot node from foot pose, (keep foot child nodes rotation) I may concentrate , only about weight map of shin and foot node.
Above is my answer, which you asked me,, then You seems try to make new original JCM beliong to Liliframes answer. good luck
if you could make original JCM , you just need to save the new JCMs as morph assets, with same name which auto-transfered with fit pose.
No worries if that was your advice then due credit goes to you. Please do not take this the wrong way but I have a hard time understanding your notes and I suspect English isn't your first language - my apologies if I offended.
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I just realized you came out with a tutorial on rigging, congrats! Is it all about Triax/G3 rigging and the shoe rigging we've been going on about in this topic? I had to put down the projects over the holidays and just now returning to it...
http://www.daz3d.com/the-comprehensive-guide-to-rigging-tools-in-daz-studio
If you scroll down to the "What's included" section, you will see a list of topics it covers.
The guide is about Rigging Tools in general - however it has no special instructions on specific objects.
That said - you are still stuck to tutorials when it comes to specifics - like how to rig a SPECIFIC SHIRT or a SPECIFIC PAIR OF SHOES.
My approach is more about showing the tools, describing their use and have you understand and come up with how you will position the bones. After all - they are used to control the figure. If you understand how the bones work, you will understand how to position them.