Why do I feel like I'm the only one bothered by eyes?
ZamuelNow
Posts: 753
This is a rant thread I've been holding back for a while (well, one of several...). Why is it that so many vendors and gallery artists use totally blank expressions? And not just a basic, neutral face but an outright vacant expression with eyes that aren't focused on anything. I tend to find it downright unnerving which is doubly annoying when you see it showered with praise. I just don't get it. From the previous forum I already know my perception of eyes and eye color is different than most so that affects things somewhat but this has been bothering me for a while.
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Eyes are the heart of the artwork/render, and should never be treated lightly. If the expression is faint, the eyes tell you very clearly how they are feeling, they give the viewer an in depth insight into the mood and setting, and the eyes are often a target which brings the speculation to what's going on in that world. :)
To rant a bit on eyes in another form... Many characters UV's DONT match up or even include the edge of the eyelid, closest to the eye's surface. M4 and V4 UV's on genesis don't even line up properly at the eyes, which is very problematic with detailed close-ups. I've spent Hours, painting in the eyelids in the textures, lining it all up, which is painstaking. Not to mention, no one gives a damn about Genesis M4's UV template, which I cant find even on daz.
Anyways... Rant posted :-P
To be honest I don't care what the expressions are on promos as they are just that promos. It is when it comes to the artwork I have a little giggle to meself about the blank expressions, but each to thier own. :)
Yeah, eyes are tough. I think many don't notice the mannequin look.
What I'd love to see would be a better way to focus the eyes on specific things. For example if there are two characters in a scene, they should look towards eachother orat the same thing. This can be a real challenge, with the way that eyes tend to roll or turn in strange manners.
To draw the eye into a picture, characters should be more easily posed to focus on a specific thing.
I also think there are some problems with eyes. I've bought characters whose eyes reflect and look poorly, and haven't been able to figure this out. I usually simply switch eyes of the character to another...
One thing I had been experimenting with at one point with M4/V4 was having them point at each other's eyebrow joint. Doesn't always work pending on distance and angle but tends to work better than pointing them at the head as a whole.
Dragging this over to end-use: In my renders I'm always careful with the direction of the protagonist's gaze, usually using a small sphere primitive as the target of DS4.5Pro's "Point At" feature. I can't say I'm always happy with the results, but I'm always trying to make the eyes look good. Vendors' care and consideration to their characters eyes is usually appreciated, but when I buy a great character and the eyes look wonky . . . :-/
KickAir 8P you can also use a NULL instead of a sphere then you aren't using valuable memory up. :)
I've tried focusing on specific items with the eyes, such as a null, but sometimes the eyes will roll unexpectedly. I think we take for granted that we adjust the tilt of our heads as well as turn our eyes and bodies to focus on something. But I also think the eyes can shift in unexpected and extreme ways when just a simply adjustment is needed.
I do use expression sets, and one set I have has many eye poses- which are great, but the expressions tend to look a bit... Simpering even on the ladies. I'd love better expression sets, especailly for men.
To expand on this because I use the same method but with a Null instead, I find it best to send the Null 5000 units out in front of the character instead of keeping it in close. The reason for this is that it gives me a more percise way of adjusting the eyes without it being very jumpy or sensative. I have also used multiple nulls by parenting two nulls to one and having each eye look at one of the parented nulls.
I was forced to sit through the DVD of The Polar Express with friend's niece a couple of days ago. Talk about creepy kids. Great on the motion capture but totally blank, expressionless eyes...
I focus a lot on eyes and facial expressions in my images. Heck even my zombies don't have blank expressions.
I also try to have my characters looking at something or someone in the scene, if i can't do that, then I have them look toward camera. done right, this can have the effect that the character is looking at the viewer.
A note on eyes. Have you ever seen one of those paintings where the eyes seem to follow you around the room? This effect was at first accidental, but later painters figured out what caused this and started doing it on purpose. Basically all it is is one eye in the painting is looking nearly straight ahead, the other is looking slightly left or right. As the viewer looks at the painting they subconsciously focus on the eye in the painting that is most looking at them. When the viewer changes position in the room they switch their focus again to the eye that is most looking at them.
Another note on eyes. Human eyes are not perfectly lined up. One eye is a little higher than the other, and when one eye is looking straight ahead the other is slightly crossed. If this were not true we would have no depth perception at all.
Did you know that the human eye can only see 8% of the spectrum of light? Technically that means we are all 92% blind
I find that trying to use 'point at' for eyes gives very poor results. When you use the eye movement pose controls (Genesis) or morphforms (gen 4), it doesn't just rotate the eye, but also changes the upper and lower eyelids accordingly. When you just use 'point at', only the eye turns, which can lead to very freaky looking eyes.
My approach to aiming eyes is to create a 10m tall .1cm diameter cylinder primitive. Parent that to one of the eyeballs and then apply 90 rotation to X. This gives you a stick pointing pretty much right out of the center of the eye that you can then use the eye movement pose controls to get the stick to point were you want with a pretty high degree of precision. After the eyes are positioned, the cylinder primitive can be hidden or deleted.
Eyes are difficult to get right...thanks for all the tips everyone!
SnowSultan has UV maps with seam guides, very useful http://www.snowsultan.com/seams/v4_seamguides.zip
Also keep in mind that if you're placing your characters using a single camera, they may be farther apart (or closer) than you think and your eye pointing tricks may give you results that feel off. So use various cameras (or at least rotate a perspective cam around) to see exactly what you have. Also a top view comes in very very handy. This is especially true if you're using a background image rather than creating an entire scene.
While I sorta noticed this, it never fully registered until seeing it said. That positioning tip sounds like it will be useful as well.
This is a fascinating thread. While personally, I have no depth perception as my eyes work independently of each other, I've found other ways to compensate that mostly work.
In Daz, I find that I'm constantly rotating through views, either perspective or by creating another camera and placing it where I want the characters to look, in order to get the characters to look in the right direction. Don't know how well I succeed, but I find it helpful in large scale scenes with multiple characters involved.