Dynamic Hair
cdpro_2831bbd990
Posts: 1,430
I would love some sort of utility that allows you to specify gravity for your favorite hair and automorph it according to the figure's pose. You could override it to tweak the positioning of the hair as needed. But, you wouldn't have to rely on just Style type parameter morphs to have the hair fall in the right direction. Autofit is an awesome tool. I'm not bashing it at all. But, I'd like it if conforming hair also had more gravity based movement instead of just sticking to the chest or back. I've used Dformers to give that appearance. But, so often the Dformer is difficult to use and get a good look. Also, the Autofit will fight against the Dformer, with sometimes crazy results. Perhaps some method of parenting and autofitting the skullcap, but allowing the rest of the hair to flow free?
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That would be the easiest way to implement hair but you also need to give the hair follicles the characteristic shapes and sizes that cause straight, curly, wavy, or kinky hair along with density & thickness. Such hair also has a property similar to springiness and retaining shape which is why wavy, curly, and kinky hair return to their shape when pulled and let go for the most part.
Such methods are compute resource intensive but likely going to by commonly available in consumer level computing devices in the next 5 years as a guess.
Well, it wouldn'thave to be perfect, to the hair fiber, intensive. I'm thinking more of a way to upgrade existing methods of morphing for style. A few more bones added to the rigging so that areas of the hair react to gravity...much in the same way that grabbing the models hand will push the rest of the body in IK. It would become poseable instead of shaped. If you think about it, in real life, hair mostly moves in clumps or locks. Most hair models are already designed with this in mind. I'm thinking something akin to how video games might handle this kind of movement without overtaxing the system.If there were say, 10 groups within a hair model that each had the proper number of bones for a decent simulation of draping, then you'd have a good start. And, the bones could be set with joint limits to cause the hair to have a tight arc near the crown and a very loose arc at the tips, so that it will tend to fall straighter at the tips. And, I see no reason why you couldn't get MCJCasual to write a good script that causes a certain amount of spring and bounce to the joints. ;) You could still use the regular shaping morphs, as these would work much the same as morphs do on the posed Genesis.
Maybe even something like a parented floor node that moves in X and Z relative to the model's head. The position of the node would pull the hair bones accordingly. It could be set up in degrees so that the crown is only marginally affected, but the tips and bangs move more radically. You could opt to override the setting and just pose the hair manually as well. Or potentially, you could have the node be an infinite xz plane. The hair would always pull towards the plane in whatever position you choose. This would be cool for wind efx, with the gravity plane on a "wall" of your scene, causing the hair to blow back or pull foward.
If you think about it further...what might be needed is a Hair figure, much like G3, that parents to the top of G3's head. The Hair Figure (G3H?), would always be the base hair, but with Hair Characters, just like we have characters for Genesis. So, the joints would not change, just the rigging length. From there, the character morphs would adapt the rigging and short hair would have different characteristics than long hair...etc. You could call it something like "G3H Gravity Reactive Hair System). It would open up a whole new set of products for PAs. And of course, there would be convertor software plugins to adapt existing hair models to the system.
Just some ideas. :)
Hi cdpro_2831bbd990, I fully support your request for realistic gravity (and wind) effects for hair in DS. Unlike you I am quite happy to give Auto fit a verbal bashing on the grounds that unless the hair was made specifically for the figure it's applied to, Autofit usually makes a mess and even sometime when the hair was made specifically for the figure (in my experience). Most often I just have to parent the hair to my figure head and morph it as required.
Anyway, you mentioned adding bones to the hair for the gravity effect to work on. I don't see how that would help at all. For gravity simulation to work a Physics simulation system has to be implemented. The situation you describe would rely on a really good inverse kinetics (IK) system so that motion could be transfered through the bones effectively. Unfortunately there is not even a good IK system for G3F in DS at the moment, so I honestly doubt one will be made for the hair alone. (Prove me wrong please PAs). On the other hand I welcome the idea of more bones in the hair so at least we can get the effect we want manually.
If DAZ3d's own programmers cannot manage a full Physics Simulation module (and I understand that it would be complex), perhaps DAZ3d could in some way encourage external programers to write a good Physics Simulation Module as a plugin. I know it's possible, even some free software has this feature (Blender for example). Other "hobbyist" level software such as Poser and Marvelous Designer, used Physics Simulation, so why not DAZ Studio which proports to be semi-professional?
I hope DAZ3d or it's PAs will answer your call for gravity effects on hair (and why not clothing too) items.
[To avoid unneccessary comments: I do know that DS uses gravity simulation on Optitex dynamic clothing... but only on Optitex compliant clothing.]
Interesting that you note the IK system in Daz. I used Poser over a decade ago and thought that IK worked fairly well compared to the current Daz IK. I also really like their keyframe animation.
As to the Dynamic Cloth issue...Others have suggested that their may be some licensing issues with Optitex...meaning either some sort of no competing products, or no expansion of the Optitex code. I have no idea if those rumours are true. However, it does seem odd that since we already know that dynamic cloth can and has been done for years, why hasn't a PA developed a competing product for cloth and hair.
As to the "no help from more bones" comment...I honestly am only making a guess as to how something like this might work. If you've worked with gravity simulation in other programs you must be more familiar with how it is accomplished. What I was suggesting about using bones to create a hair figure, is speaking to the notion that a lot of the figure control aspect is already written into Daz Studio. I was wondering if using a similar setup to pose rather than shape hair would fall in line with the same system requirements already demanded. The idea is that you could fit other hairstyles to the hair figure without needing a different structural setup for each hair model
Of course, I'm all for it however it is accomplished. I just think it would be worthwhile to be able to assign an attract to the clothing and hair, and have those items adjust accordingly, rather than always having to dial in the gravity and try to figure out how to get the front of the hair to swing down or back instead of sticking to the chest like it's been glued on.
Considering all the impressive animation and artificial physics in todays video game engines, it seems like what I'm asking for might just be a matter of adapting current tech.
I like the idea of more bones in Hair figures and your idea of using them to simulate wind or gravity via an IK system is innovative. However, I don't think the existing IK system in Genesis 3 is up to the job. I agree that the IK system in Poser is better. When you plant a foot, for example, it stays planted in Poser. Not so in DS.
As to the advantages and disadvantages of the Optitex system and the question of DAZ3d's business arrangements with Optitex, much has been written in the forums, as you can see if you do a search.
In the end if DAZ3d decides to stick with Optitex, that is their decision. However, I would agree that it just doesn't seem to be working to the advantage of most DS users. As you say, there is plenty of advanced Physics Simulation tech out there! Currently, the genesis 3 figures are ahead of the most other hobbyist level figures such as Poser in my opinion in many ways, it's just a pity that there are several obvious and correctable flaws. I honestly beleive that Genesis 3 figures could be left in the dust if the opposition were to get their act together. Whilst at the same time Genesis 3 could become the hobbyists golden standard if DAZ3d addressed the flaws.
We continue to wait to see what happens.
It does seem like Optitex has everyones' hands tied. I haven't seen any new Dynamic Clothes for G2 or G3. Surely, there must be something Daz can do to either drop the product and go in search of a better and developing system, or get the licensing fees within reach of PAs so they can afford to use the software and produce new Dynamic Clothes....and maybe, hair. :)
http://www.daz3d.com/dynamic-classics-for-victoria-7-genesis-3-female-s was released in October this year.
Fortunately the PAs don't need their own copy of the OptiTex software, most items have been joint efforts between a PA (who, as far as I know, designs the outfit and handles texturing) and the "OptiTex" vendor who handles the build and adaptation side.
Ah...Thank you for the clarification. I did not know how the PA / Optitex partnership worked. I had heard elsewhere that the PAs who wanted to make the clothes had to pay a high license fee for the software. It seems I was misinformed. My mistake about the clothes.... I did actually see them, but thought that they were a one off legacy type remake. Everything else I've seen has always been for V4 or maybe Genesis. I made the assumption that they had stopped production....especially since I hadn't seen anything new on the Optitex site in ages.
Glad to know that there is something happening on that end of things, and hopefully, new clothes in the works. :).
So, should we expect more new dynamic clothing and maybe, hair? Is this a new resurgence for the tech?
Not really misinformed...just not the complete story.
The person who does the conversion/set up work has that expensive software and does that work for the other PAs. It's just that if anyone else wanted to do it (partnership) or if someone wanted full control (do it without any outside) help, then they would have to buy the software. So it's either pay for very expensive software or rely on one other vendor to assist you. I don't know what the details between the PA creating the item and person doing the set up are, but I do imagine it's not gratis.
There are roughly 90 dynamic items for V4, M4, and K4 in the store. Genesis has 48, Genesis 2 has 7, and Genesis 3 has one item. That doesn't feel like a resurgence to me.
I really like DAZ and have been shopping here for way too long, but they dropped the ball on dynamics. However, there is another solution for dynamic cloth and hair which works for Poser, Studio, and Carrara. Google "VWD cloth and hair". The base program costs $45 or $60 and the Studio bridge costs another $15.
There's another 120+ free items and there are several non-figure specific items (table cloths, flags, etc).
http://www.optitex-dynamiccloth.com/FreebieDownload16.php
Zylox mentioned VWD cloth and hair software. I have heard various comments about it but I don't own it. Some say they like it , some say it's "clunky", others say it's not very intuitive with a very steep learning curve and few useful tutorials.
Can any owners/users of the software make comments?
I own it.
it is clunky, the learning curve is steep, and there are few useful tutorials.
That said, imo there are no better options. And, provided you are patient, it can be really rewarding.
Note that the definition of the Optitex dynamic clothes as being "for" V4, Genesis, Genesis2 etc. is a bit fuzzy — dynamic clothes aren't like conventional conforming clothes, they can be draped on other figures. It isn't always easy to get a snug fit, and sometimes it's particularly tricky if you don't have the full dynamics plugin, but with patience and a bit (or a lot!) of tweaking, it can be done.
For those that know me, know that I am a fan of Blender for just about everything...but, I'm seriously looking at VWD to replace what I do in Blender.