Greater ZBrush compatibility for DAZ Studio 5!
kevphil
Posts: 50
I very much hope that DAZ Studio 5 will alow the export of higher res meshes into ZBrush. The current approach is workable, but would be so much better with more geometry to work with. OR, create a simple set of sculpting brushes to use WITHIN 5.0. Move, Inflate. Pinch. Thanks!
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Not going to say it will never happen, but the ability to create higher resolution morphs is not going to happen any time soon. Not because of a software/programming problem, but rather because it is a reserved function for PAs only.
As mjc1016 said this is not a technical issue but a marketing approach by DAZ3d.
From a technological point of view HD morphing could be made available to all users of DS4.9 immediately, but DAZ3d has restricted it to their PAs so that the products must be sold via the DAZ store. This is their right, they own the software, but it is extremely irritating and frustrating to normal DS users. I fear that if they persist in this approach someone will come up with an alternative and better system to Genesis 3 in DS and DAZ, and then they will lose a lot of business. They seem to be willing to take the risk at the moment.
Perhaps if enough of their clients complain, they will change their minds, but don't hold your breath!
Normal maps are your friend
+1
Yes, normal maps are useful, but they cannot replace the power and flexibility of being able to morph the mesh itself (at least at present as far as I have seen). To be fair, I think using normal maps should be used in conjunction with mesh morphing.
That's how normal maps are used. People need to learn how to do low poly sculpting first as HD is not a shortcut. You need to learn to low poly sculpt first, to repeat myself. This is why normal maps have been mentioned for years before HD was even a thing.
Agreed. in fact only one of my products in store is HD as of right now. So it can be done, and has been done for years.
Indeed. I was involved in game modding on the PC long before I ever heard of DAZ Studio, and normal maps were the only sane way to get the detail people wanted to make the models look realistic enough and not drag the game performance down on low end systems.
Edit: kant spel todai ;)
What does a HD morph do that a standard morph can't do? Technically speaking, please. I understand HD means high definition, but please try to explain the technical difference.
As I understand it, each type of morph stores a list of delta values, so...what's so special about HD morphs if they store the same type of data? Is the difference just the format? One is text, and the other is binary? Is there some upper limitation on the text format? If so, what is it?
The amount of vertices being imported, so you're limited to a base resolution model on import. HD means unlimited polygons can be imported although most PAs stick to about 3 subdivions which would be roughly 1 million polys on a G3F. Base is roughly 17,000 polys on a G3F. A level 4 HD G3F would be roughly 4.2 million polys.
Well Male-M3dia, Josh and daywalker, you have missed my point. That must mean I didn't make myself very clear :)
Normal maps and weight maps are wonderful (there! satisfied?). They can be used to modify the surface of a figure in high definition (happy now?). You can not use normal maps for every job (they do not make tea, for example!). Consider shortening a limb; how would you do that with a normal map? Let me see a normal map that significantly modifies the shape of the figure. Normal maps take time to make and usually many repititions to perfect, where as modifying a mesh is fast and you see the final results instantly.
As Josh points out the difference between a base resolution Gf3 (available for everyone to morph) and a 4HD Gf3 (available only to PAs for morphing) is millions of extra polygons. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that given more polygons to morph, the posibilities to make morphs both gross and subtle are greater.
A good morphing strategy could involve both high resolution mesh morphing combined with normal maps for the finest skin details such as veins, pimples, pores etc.
Unfortunately most of us have access to only one side of that story. HD mesh morphing is denyed to all except DAZ3s PAs.
And the point is HD is NOT going to help you one bit if you don't know how to do lower poly sculpts. You simply do not sculpt with a million polys at first. You work from a smaller amount then go higher to add details. Your lower poly figure has to be done BEFORE you start HD. There are also several things that you also must do to make HD work correctly which is why the technology is not available to the public. One of those steps is very tedious and most end users are not able to do it. The HD process is not "sculpt and you're done".. you can do normal maps must faster.
Normal maps are your best bet for the hobbyist, especially one that does not have a tool like zbrush and modo handy.
Let me repeat this again, because after a few years I don't think anyone has gotten the point on HD morphs. If you think all you have to do is make a high poly mesh of something and import it into DAZ Studio and it automatically works, your assumption is completely wrong. Absolutely none of the clothing content will work with that sculpt. There are several things that you need to do to get it working, and basically that means you have at least THREE different versions of your figure that things to done with. THREE, which includes the low poly sculpt that you should have finished first. In that time, you could have had the low poly morph and the normal map from your high poly details finished and loaded and have none of the end user issues that you have if you don't do the HD process correctly.
This process is complicated and that is why it is not available to end users.
Normal maps are actually perfect for veins and pores. In fact, you'll get a lot more detail using a normal map or a bump map for that kind of detail than you would out of an HD morph, since most users can only render at most a level 3 HD morph, and most don't even utilize HD to it's full capacity. Even on my HD characters, I use a normal map to get the finer details in place like skin pores, veins, wrinkles, etc...
By the way, shortening a limb is better done with scaling rather than morphing, and can be done right in DS. There is no need for HD in that instance.
Also, to become a PA is not all that difficult, just create a character, prop, environment... whatever you're best at, and submit it here: http://daz3d.com/community/community-publishing
And trust me, HD is not the only option you have.
I created this character with base resolution morphing and scaling and normal maps: Removed Off-Site Commercial link
To further prove my point, here are some shots of my latest HD Goblin character
The first one is normal map only, and the one on the right is a level 3 HD morph only
The difference is very subtle
I would encourage you to grow your skills as an artist, and prove that you can do a low poly model with normal maps first, submit it to DAZ and become a PA yourself :)
Thanks for the explanation. So, HD morphs store morphs for subdivision meshes beyond the base level. Even if you had a very low poly model (clothing items, etc..), you could still create HD morphs for it that you wouldn't be able to do with the standard morph file.
Sort of; right now, you have no choice but to export at based resolution to create morphs, even if the item has had Sub-D applied. What I believe the PA only tool Josh is talking about allows is exporting at at least the next step up and being able to bring it back into DAZ Studio at HD levels.
How do you apply HD morphs in DAZ? The documentation is practically non-existent.
Also, what can you accomplish with HD morphs that you couldn't do with baked displacement maps?
Two things over displacement maps is the resources involved in subdivision (especially in iray... normal maps are preferred over displacement) and hd morphs are map independent so it and be used across multiple characters independent of the UV (IE use HD veins with M7 or Darius textures) HD morphs should have a dial just like a regular morph. HD morphs can be combined on a figure as well as you would have only displacement map to work with.
There will be no documentation beyond that as it's a PA only tool.
Note that low level morph still needs to be done before you begin HD. I'm trying to drive home you will need to know how to do low poly sculpting as HD adds to that, not replaces it.
Right, as it's the base for the additional details you can sculpt in since you're now able to use more tools in zBrush or whatever you use to make the morphs.
HD is just another tool in the end... a nice tool in the arsenal, but ultimately, not a necessity for creating content
Josh, excellent normal map creation. I wonder how long that took. btw, not everyone want to become a PA!
Male no one mentioned starting with HD sculpting. You state as fact: "This process is complicated and that is why it is not available to end users." Firstly, beware of stating opinions as fact.. further, I would beg to differ. DAZ3d is not a CG nanny trying to protect it's clients from using challenging software, that would be most condescending and I am sure that they don't think like that! Consider rather the possibility that keeping HD for PA's is a business decision which provides them with a market advantage. Sales of HD items have to go through DAZ3d because HD is only available to PAs.
As a PA that uses the HD tools, I am providing information, considering the majority of my products over the last few years use the HD tools and know a lot of the pitfalls from that use. Your post shows that you are not aware of that fact and as you don't have access to the tools, your viewpoint would only be speculation. As I said, this process is complicated and this is information you should know to give you a better understanding of the process without the speculation.
As I mentioned, the process to do this correctly is complicated. Just like some people will make a freebie morph that ends up overriding the base genesis, messing up the steps to making the HD can make clothing not fit for your whole library. This process isn't streamlined for end users and incorpates several DAZ technologies, that's why it is not out in the wild where it would become a support nightmare.
IsaacNewton, unfortunately, if you want access to the HD tools, you have to become a PA. That's the rules. :)
The creation of normal maps takes about 10 mintues in Zbrush on average if you're using the multi map exporter for a character. The deseaming process also takes a bit of time and of course the sculpting process itself takes quite a bit of time depending on your level of skill and amount of detail you're putting into your character.
If you have any questions about how to create normal maps in zbrush, feel free to ask. There is also a ton of information available for free on youtube and such.
Good luck in your endeavors
You csn choose to see it that way, but who is paying the technical support staff at DAZ to figure out the reasons why things that worked fine in in house testing don't work on a buyer's computer? And depending on how often it happened when Genesis was first released (and it still does happen today, for what it's worth), this decision may actually have been proposed to save the company money over time.
I read trough this thread because it was linked to from another thread.
To me it seems that customers who want to create images in a time efficient way and people who are creating licensed content have different needs and interests.
It would be great if a solution could be found so both sides can do their job or hobby with the proper tools.
The bottom line is that users are asking for tools to edit the licensed content they purchased.
Option A)
-> edit the licensed content in a dedicated 3rd party tool like Zbrush and import them to DAZ Studio
Option B)
-> edit the licensed content directly inside DAZ Studio with tools optimized to work along well with other DAZ3D technologies.
- - -
There is a group of customers who purchases licensed 3d content with the purpoose of editing it to make it look unique.
For many purposes it is not possible to use a "stock" model just as shown off in promo images.
->
IF the process of adding details to licensed content takes longer because of unnecessary complicated workarounds than actually creating a 3d model from scratch
THEN it becomes pointless to spend money on licensed 3d content.
->
IF DAZ 3D is interested in gaining more users who actually want to edit the licensed 3d content
THEN it is recommended that DAZ Studio finally gets updated with tools so those users can work in a time efficient way.
- - -
I think what's being portrayed as "unnecessarily complicated workarounds" is actually the most time efficient means, if I'm understanding what the folks that have access to the tool some non-vendors keep asking for correctly.