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OK, DAZ, seriously, what's going on?

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  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050
    edited December 1969

    Rashad Carter said:

    As someone once said in a Renderosity forum; "With Vue, anyone can be Howie Farkes."

    I've been thinking about this statement, and I have to admit that there is some truth to it. Yet, I also must admit I think Howie's scenes look more realistic than most of what I see from the Vue galleries. The difference with the Vue galleries is that lots of people are making Howie-esque type renders, they just dont look quite as good as Howie does it in Carrara. Carrara already has a better plant generator than Vue, by a long shot. But Carrara cannot generate atmospheres on par with Ozone, which is the procedural atmosphere generator Vue uses for Spectral Skies. Vue has excellent clouds and it has excellent global radiance (radiosity). To my mind, if Carrara had a more mature atmosphere generator and clouds, it could take a chunk out of Vue's niche.But integrating Bryce wont help. Because while Bryce has much better clouds than Carrara, it still has inferior clouds to Vue. And though Bryce has at atmosphere generator, it is very basic and not as accurate as Ozone. So to my mind Carrara gains little nothing except maybe a world class terrain generator...by being merged with Bryce. Carrara doesnt need Bryce at this stage. If anything, they should port the plant generator from Carrara into Bryce, that wopuld give Bryce a boost as the native tree modeler kind of sucks compared to Carrara.

    Carrara is a more well rounded app than Vue, I know. Carrara can model, Vue cannot. Still, Vue holds its own and is in constant development. Carrara is usually in development as well, but for features related only to Daz Studio, not in keeping with the industry at large. Just my opinion.


    Whoever said that, "with Vue andybody can be Howie Farkes," is either delusional or suffers from a terminal case of hyperbole. If the poster were honest, he would have said that anybody with Vue could be a Howie Farkes if he/she understood the tools, were willing to put in the time and effort, and had the artistic skill. The same goes for Carrara. I see Howie's scenes and I am in awe. I've made some terrains that I thought were pretty darn good, but they are noting compared to Howie's. I have Carrara. Why can't I do it? Short answer is that I haven't spent the time and effort.


    It's nice to wish for all the bells and whistles in another program. The grass is also always greener on the other side of the fence. If Howie can make photo-real or near photo real atmospheres, terrains, etc. in Carrara then maybe it's time for those that wish Carrara had this or that feature or enhancement to actually learn how to use the tools it has.

  • Rashad CarterRashad Carter Posts: 1,803
    edited December 1969

    evilproducer said:
    Rashad Carter said:
    evilproducer said:
    Rashad Carter said:
    ...I mean, now that DS has dynamic hair that looks as good or better than that of Carrara, the relevance of Carrara has fallen even more.


    Can you point me to DAZ Studio dynamic hair? I don't mean to be argumentative or quibble Rashad, but a quick search of DAZ's store turned up nothing for D/S. There are also many features that Carrara does that D/S can't. Bryce can also do many things D/S can't do either.


    For what it's worth, I do agree with you that merging all the software into one would be a bad idea, for many of the reasons you listed. Additionally, there's no way they could give out free version if they were to do it. That would really kill their content.

    I may indeed stand corrected. I am not certain that the hair is dynamic, but it is hair at least:
    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/look-at-my-hair

    Word on the street is that the 3D Light engine is capable of magnificent things, so long as the features are enabled in some way. So I'm confident that the hair will only improve over time as users gain more sophistication with the tools. I'm also betting that making this hair dynamic is an ability already embedded in the current 3D Light toolset likely waiting only to be unlocked by someone's clever plug-in released in six months from now. DS has a bright future ahead of it. Obviously.


    I don't mean to quibble, and I agree up to a point with your opinion on DAZ and it's secondary software, but honestly, Carrara is still being developed, however slowly and D/S has a long way to go before it reaches feature parity, if ever. Not to say D/S doesn't have some nice features, but you either have to pay for the pro version or spend bucks on plugins. I don't mind paying for software that has the features I want, and there are D/S users that feel the same way, but D/S was originally designed as a give away, so people would by their figures and content. It still works much the same way. The plugins and the pro version are mainly for people hitting the limits of the free version.


    Regarding the hair, it looks like it could be dynamic, but from reading the manual it also sounds as if once it's set up, you have to do some conversion just to use it in the D/S scene. Plus I didn't see any mention of it being able to be draped, or otherwise having physical forces effect it. It sounds as if it's kind of a quasi-dynamic hair. There are other severe limitations, for instance you can only use it on one figure in your scene at a time.


    I'm not sure where you're coming from with the render engine. The renderer renders the hair in Carrara, but it doesn't create it. The same with D/S. Making the hair dynamic and responsive to movements in an animation, or physical forces like gravity has nothing whatsoever to do with the render engine. Calculating how light reacts and behaves with the hair, that's the render engines job. Carrara calculates the hairs movement and interactions for every frame based on the hair guides, and sends that position to the renderer where it calculates the light information and draws a picture based on that.

    The hair looks better in some examples than in others, I admit. But it is hopeful. Only being able to apply it to one character in a scene seems odd, a strangle limitation. I don't own the product yet so I cannot confirm that this is the case.

    When I say renderer I don't mean it literally as such, more of a reference to the underlying code likely being well prepared to deal with the particular challenges of animating and applying fields of influence to the hair fibers. Likely all of this has been done before in a more enabled version of 3D Light, all the plug-ins need to do now is unlock it for DS. That's exciting to consider.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,643
    edited December 2012

    This system is better, but it looks like it has many of the same features Carrara hair has.
    http://www.garibaldiexpress.com/

    But again, YMMV as some of the beta testers hair looks really bad. Shows skill and talent is still needed.

    Post edited by Kevin Sanderson on
  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050
    edited December 1969

    Rashad Carter said:

    The hair looks better in some examples than in others, I admit. But it is hopeful. Only being able to apply it to one character in a scene seems odd, a strangle limitation. I don't own the product yet so I cannot confirm that this is the case.

    When I say renderer I don't mean it literally as such, more of a reference to the underlying code likely being well prepared to deal with the particular challenges of animating and applying fields of influence to the hair fibers. Likely all of this has been done before in a more enabled version of 3D Light, all the plug-ins need to do now is unlock it for DS. That's exciting to consider.


    The figure limitation was from the PDF manual available from the developer's web site. Future iterations of the product hope to eliminate the restriction.


    Again, 3Dlight is the renderer. It does not calculate physical interactions. Only light interactions. D/S would calculate the movements and physical interactions of the hairs. D/S tells 3Delight the position of the hairs and 3Delight calculates the lights and the shadows. Plugin developers would need to write a plugin for D/S for movement of the hair. If there needed to be a change to the lighting model for the renderer to properly calculate the light interactions, then that would be a 3Delight plugin.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050
    edited December 2012

    Kevin Sanderson said:
    This system is better, but it looks like it has many of the same features Carrara hair has.
    http://www.garibaldiexpress.com/

    But again, YMMV as some of the beta testers hair looks really bad. Shows skill and talent is still needed.


    Kind of like Carrara's hair for the creation of it, but no physical interactions that I can see, so animations may be out. Plus from the manual, to use it in D/S studio, you have to convert it to Renderman Curves or something. You can still change the material settings, but again, I don't see the ability to use physical forces to push it or blow it.


    Still, it looks better than most prop or figure hair, so that's something.

    Post edited by evilproducer on
  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    Kodiak3D said:
    Actually, as much as I hate to, I kinda have to agree with Joe on this one. .

    You hate to agree with me? What is it with you guys? I suppose it's more fun to hate me completely than to admit I might have a point worth considering. Geesh...

    Anyway, I merely expressed surprise at someone saying the number is high. And someone calls that "sneering" at the number?

    Good lord, people, lighten up.

    In any case, I haven't heard anyone provide any backup for the number yet, just a lot of discussion. Does that mean there's no supporting data? And no, that's not sneering. And no, that's not intended to offend anyone.

  • Kodiak3dKodiak3d Posts: 223
    edited December 1969

    JoeMamma2000 said:
    Kodiak3D said:
    Actually, as much as I hate to, I kinda have to agree with Joe on this one. .

    You hate to agree with me? What is it with you guys? I suppose it's more fun to hate me completely than to admit I might have a point worth considering. Geesh...

    Don't hate you or have anything against you at all, Joe. That said, I feel like you can be uneccessarily argumentative at times. Not coming down on you or anything, just explaining why I said what I said.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    Kodiak3D said:
    Don't hate you or have anything against you at all, Joe. That said, I feel like you can be uneccessarily argumentative at times. Not coming down on you or anything, just explaining why I said what I said.

    Umm...okay...but you still haven't explained why you said you hate to agree with me....

    The reason I mention it is that I hear that a lot here. People hate to admit I might be right. I just don't understand it. Seems strange that someone would hate to agree with someone else, or hate to admit they're right.

    But anyway, I suppose it is what it is and people are what they are.....no explanation necessary. I just find it strange

  • Kodiak3dKodiak3d Posts: 223
    edited December 1969

    JoeMamma2000 said:
    Kodiak3D said:
    Don't hate you or have anything against you at all, Joe. That said, I feel like you can be uneccessarily argumentative at times. Not coming down on you or anything, just explaining why I said what I said.

    Umm...okay...but you still haven't explained why you said you hate to agree with me....

    Yes, I did. I hate to agree with you because you can be unnecessarily argumentative. It gets under people's skin. That's why I said it. You get under people's skin. I don't like to agree with people who get under people's skin.

    When someone disagrees with you, you tend to get bent out of shape over it and often can be disrespectful toward others, including 3DAge (one of the most respected people here) who you seem to have a particular beef with for some unknown reason.

    So, if I may, back to the topic at hand, which is Carrara.

    If DAZ did decide to sell Carrara (hypothetically, not saying that's what they're doing), would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Would it manage to keep its compatability with DAZ content?

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,643
    edited December 1969

    Joe, I remember reading an old page talking about when Carrara was sold to some company years ago, one of the guys quoted was talking about the huge e-mail list they were getting (I think it included Ray Dream users). That's probably where some of this stuff starts. But you know and I know that doesn't mean everyone is an active user and the way e-mail addresses have changed for most folks over the years, I would safely assume those e-mail lists are worthless now (they were probably fresher and a better deal back then). You probably can't count registered users either as some folks install and register and then do nothing. I have two friends who have high end CG programs -- one has LW and he only got it thinking he'd need it for his production company -- turns out he didn't -- he uses regular old video and After Effects. The other guy bought 3ds Max when he bought some other Autodesk stuff in some package deal. He's never touched 3ds Max. He used other programs for designing sound studios and he doesn't even do that anymore. Things change and people move on. Something folks should consider.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,643
    edited December 2012

    Kodiak3D said:

    If DAZ did decide to sell Carrara (hypothetically, not saying that's what they're doing), would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Would it manage to keep its compatability with DAZ content?

    I do not think it would be a good thing. As has been discussed at length in other threads, to make Carrara a program that would bring in the money needed to support the developers needed, it would cost a small fortune. Reminds me of an apartment building where I used to live in Detroit. Nice place then, still not bad now in appearance, but it needs $10 Million dollars in plumbing and heating repairs done, They tried to sell it recently and couldn't. I think the City had to step in to get HUD to relax about some stuff. But a similar thing could be said for Carrara -- was a nice software package and still is without some of the newer bells and whistles (though if people would dig, some of the same stuff can be done in it) but it would take millions of dollars for a company to fix it up to gee-whiz snuff. So it would probably die. At least with the DAZ content connection and it being their all-in-one most-pro solution, Carrara has a future at DAZ. The best way to keep it compatible with DAZ content is to keep it part of DAZ.

    Post edited by Kevin Sanderson on
  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,624
    edited December 1969

    Steve K said:
    Dartanbeck said:
    ... the added bonus that one could easily import Poser figures and animate those for use in one's creations.

    Bingo. That is when I gave up on Poser for most projects. I was wishing, at that point. That's where I first discovered Carrara but, alas, had to build the funds. By that time it was graciously taken over by none other than my favorite content folks, Daz3d! :)

    And now you don't even need to import because Poser Libraries are treated as Carrara assets. With beta 8.5 the newest Daz3d libraries are being added as well.

    Pretty much what the average Carrara user wants! Isn't it?

    I think so. I have not used the 8.5 Beta much (at all?), waiting (and waiting, and ...) for the production release.

    But does the DS only content, e.g. Genesis, etc., work the same in Carrara as the Poser content? I.e. links to external runtimes (or whatever DS calls them), direct load from the Carrara browser, etc.?

    And is there any talk of a release date for the final Carrara 8.5?
    There was talk, a while back (shortly after the release of build 172, I think, that this was close to being the release candidate - but they wanted our input first.
    Steve (and that goes for anyone else who might be thinking about it),
    you should really give it a test drive! C8.5 Pro, build 172 is the best Carrara yet, as far as the Windows platform is concerned, I think.

    Just be sure to:
    A - Make sure the installer points to a new folder, like Carrara85b, for example, than your current installation.
    B - Do NOT choose "Yes" if it asks to uninstall Carrara

    After that, I made a new folder in my "My Documents > Daz3d" folder, "Carrara 85b", copied the contents of my Carrara folder and pasted it into that new folder, basically copying over all of my own, Carrara My Library - so-to-speak. This way I can open and save, without changing stuff I don't want to break. Of course, you'll also have to install all of your cool Carrara stuff to the new Carrara, but that's just fun!

    Once you install the VERY LATEST version of Daz Studio, and any Genesis content you may have acquired, Carrara 8.5beta is now ready to open Genesis as it does everything else.

    I've been using nothing but the beta since a couple or three builds ago, I like it that much better - but only play with Genesis on occasion.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,624
    edited December 1969

    Kevin Sanderson said:
    Kodiak3D said:

    If DAZ did decide to sell Carrara (hypothetically, not saying that's what they're doing), would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Would it manage to keep its compatability with DAZ content?

    I do not think it would be a good thing. As has been discussed at length in other threads, to make Carrara a program that would bring in the money needed to support the developers needed, it would cost a small fortune. Reminds me of an apartment building where I used to live in Detroit. Nice place then, still not bad now in appearance, but it needs $10 Million dollars in plumbing and heating repairs done, They tried to sell it recently and couldn't. I think the City had to step in to get HUD to relax about some stuff. But a similar thing could be said for Carrara -- was a nice software package and still is without some of the newer bells and whistles (though if people would dig, some of the same stuff can be done in it) but it would take millions of dollars for a company to fix it up to gee-whiz snuff. So it would probably die. At least with the DAZ content connection and it being their all-in-one most-pro solution, Carrara has a future at DAZ. The best way to keep it compatible with DAZ content is to keep it part of DAZ.Absolutely.
    All good intentions are one thing, but Daz3d truly has those. Carrara users were aching that they needed features fixed and/or added. Daz3d devs came right into the discussion and asked, "Like what, could you please give some examples and please keep the in-between clutter-talk (in that particular thread) to a minimum, so we can see your responses easier?" Holly must have had the most logically thought-out responses, and she did so right near the start of the thread... which makes me very excited to see if they take her heed in v9 or 10!!! Many others piped in and a nice list of great (and some not-so-great) ideas formed - and then the clutter took over! lol

    I also don't think that Daz3d was ever planning to put Bryce out of their plans, either. With the economy forcing everyone to stop spoiling themselves on their hobbies, Daz had to find a way to change their minds... and that they did! It worked very, very well! Don't take that as a message from Daz3d stating that any of them are to be dropped. They really love the software they sell - that's why they bought them (DS excluded, of course - they built that baby from ground up. And I still have a copy of D|S v0.7beta in storage!) ;)

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,624
    edited December 1969

    PhilW, in his "Infinite Skills" Traing videos, has shown, very quickly, yet comprehensively that Carrara's modeler works quite well. And he goes over UV Mapping and rigging, etc., just what the average 3d animator needs from the 3d software. It drives me nuts when people look at what big movie productions are doing and say: "Why doesn't Carrara have that?"
    If all you have is a Pinto, why look at a Corvette mod shop for ideas?
    Carrara has an outstanding list of features to take a hard-working stone mason, and give him the tools to make videos without dealing with making costumes for people and making them run around in front of a camera. Topping that with the ability to add a fully rigged family of Dragons? Now we're talkin'!
    Carrara is beautiful. The presets are nice to give an example of where to start. The people who work on the dev team are really, really cool... and far more intelligent than anyone here gives them credit for. Howie actually looks at what he can do - not what he can't - that's why he's so good. Some people just don't exercise their imagination enough - so it hurts when they use those muscles. The same can be said for those who try to think. Pierre thinks from the time he wakes through the time he wakes. It doesn't end for him. Spooky and Bruce have all proven to everyone how much they really want to give every one of us what we want. They really have - and recently, even! They don't type for a month or two and they're facing a mob, ready to pin them to a cross... what a bummer.

  • Kodiak3dKodiak3d Posts: 223
    edited December 2012

    I have very little modeling experience, but I have used Carrara's modeler to build a few things and I have to say I like it for the most part. It can be frustrating at times, but a little determination gets around that. I find it rather intuitive.

    I do have to say that I like Blender better. Again, not a lot of experience with it, but I seems more cooperative. Many say Blender isn't user-friendly, but 2.5 changed that, in my opinion. There are so many good tutorial vids out there for Blender, it's very easy to learn.

    Post edited by Kodiak3d on
  • foleyprofoleypro Posts: 485
    edited December 1969

    Once it gets a particle system (I think ParticleFX is in late beta, correct?), there' not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio...?

    Correct ParticleFX DS4.5 is in a late beta...Soon...

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,624
    edited December 1969

    Kodiak3D said:
    I have very little modeling experience, but I have used Carrara's modeler to build a few things and I have to say I like it for the most part. It can be frustrating at times, but a little determination gets around that. I find it rather intuitive.

    I do have to say that I like Blender better. Again, not a lot of experience with it, but I seems more cooperative. Many say Blender isn't user-friendly, but 2.5 changed that, in my opinion. There are so many good tutorial vids out there for Blender, it's very easy to learn.
    Blender is free - anyone can add that to their toolbox - same with(currently) Hexagon.

    Once it gets a particle system (I think ParticleFX is in late beta, correct?), there' not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio...?

    Really?
    Please tell me you aren't serious!
    Now I can go to bed laughing my...

    I'm sorry. D|S totally rocks! I really feel this way! But to say that there' not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio...?
    Oh my stomach...
    I'm.. ha ha ha... I'm going to bed now!
    ha ha ha

  • GarstorGarstor Posts: 1,411
    edited December 1969

    Kodiak3D said:
    So, if I may, back to the topic at hand, which is Carrara.

    If DAZ did decide to sell Carrara (hypothetically, not saying that's what they're doing), would that be a good thing or a bad thing? Would it manage to keep its compatability with DAZ content?

    Thread derailing is what we do best! :)

    This is an interesting hypothetical though! I suspect that it would maintain solid compatibility - and maybe even get better. It has been said quite a few times on other threads, once Blender can handle DAZ content, Carrara is dead. I'm not completely sure how I feel about that...but it would be a likely motivator for the hypothetical new Carrara owners to keep it compatible.

  • Kodiak3dKodiak3d Posts: 223
    edited December 1969

    Dartanbeck said:
    Kodiak3D said:
    I have very little modeling experience, but I have used Carrara's modeler to build a few things and I have to say I like it for the most part. It can be frustrating at times, but a little determination gets around that. I find it rather intuitive.

    I do have to say that I like Blender better. Again, not a lot of experience with it, but I seems more cooperative. Many say Blender isn't user-friendly, but 2.5 changed that, in my opinion. There are so many good tutorial vids out there for Blender, it's very easy to learn.
    Blender is free - anyone can add that to their toolbox - same with(currently) Hexagon.

    Once it gets a particle system (I think ParticleFX is in late beta, correct?), there' not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio...?

    Really?
    Please tell me you aren't serious!
    Now I can go to bed laughing my...

    I'm sorry. D|S totally rocks! I really feel this way! But to say that there' not going to be a lot of advantages left that Carrara has over Studio...?
    Oh my stomach...
    I'm.. ha ha ha... I'm going to bed now!
    ha ha ha

    The person who quoted me left of part of it where I said "as far as animation goes." Carrara certainly has much more to offer than D|S as a whole, but Studio is quickly building a set of plugins that make it comparable to Carrara in its role as an animation program. Carrara is certainly still more robust, but D|S is catching up quickly. Carrara still has Modifiers that D|S doesn't, which is a biggie in my opinion, but the dividing line is getting slimmer all the time. D|S's ability to use Luxrender is a BIG deal to me. I like realism in my renders, and Lux is great at it. Yes, Carrara can achieve realistic results as well, but Lux makes it easier.

  • wetcircuitwetcircuit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    LOL! This whole premise rests on the assumption that a software company can't own 2 similar-purpose programs....

    Ladies but mostly Gentlemen, I give you exhibit A: AUTODESK
    http://usa.autodesk.com/products/

    If you NEED further evidence I was about to post a link to exhibit B: ADOBE
    ...but there apparently no single webpage that displays ALL of Adobe's products, because they have SO many...

    In BOTH cases, they have products they developed and products they acquired. As you can plainly see as long as there is a userbase for each product there is no reason to "dump" them. On the contrary, the game appears to be "to own as much of the gameboard as possible". There appear to be no other viable rules to the game. Nothing says your products have to work reliably, or be compatible, or not be redundant...

    Now I give you exhibit C: DAZ
    http://www.daz3d.com/shop/software

    and if you click that link ^ you are probably laughing your ass off or sobbing in tears right now. Yes kids, that's the official link as reached through the big drop down interface on the DAZ website.... Maybe something different comes up for you on your web browser, but what I got is typical DAZ....

    Screen_Shot_2012-12-30_at_10.32_.22_PM_.png
    354 x 243 - 25K
  • Kodiak3dKodiak3d Posts: 223
    edited December 1969

    Holly, I agree with you, except there are two major differences between DAZ and the likes of Autodesk and Adobe: money and people. DAZ just doesn't have the money and number of developers that Autodesk and Adobe have.

  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,643
    edited December 1969

    But Kodiak, there is another thing you should consider. If another company is going to own Carrara and make it spiffy, you will end up paying much more for it so they can have the money to pay those extra people you need. It would go for no less than modo and possibly up near LW. To get the development needed by the people impressed by golly gee whiz features, it could go for $3,500 to $3,700. When the economy is doing well and DAZ is doing well, they can add developers from content sales. And if people here would quit being so damn negative all the time, maybe they could sell some more copies and some more Carrrara content and make it more worth their while to develop Carrara further. User mardook already stated in a thread they were going to buy it and decided not to because of what they were reading. So I would kindly suggest to everyone to knock off the negative crap and get back to creating cool stuff in Carrara.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 2012

    Kevin Sanderson said:
    So I would kindly suggest to everyone to knock off the negative crap and get back to creating cool stuff in Carrara.

    Absolutely. And like I said before, we should all say only nice stuff, so people will buy it. And then, later on, after they've bought it, and they find out the bad stuff, and come into the forum complaining that nobody warned them, just put them on ignore or something.... :)

    Seriously, though, this whole "which app is better" thing is nonsense. Look, if it does what you need, it's great. If it doesn't, then look elsewhere. And if you have to use 2 or 3 apps to get what you need, then do it. There is no perfect app, there is no perfect company.

    And I am very proud to agree with Mr. Kodiak3D when he makes the distinction between DAZ and other companies. (Because even though he and I might disagree on occasion, that's no reason to negate any good points he makes...).

    DAZ is DAZ. DAZ has a completely different situation from other companies. It has investors who provide funds. Limited funds. It has competition, probably a different market than other companies, different resources (people, skills, products, etc.). And as with most companies, goals change. Sometimes overnight. So what worked yesterday might not work tomorrow.

    Buying Hex and Bryce and Carrara and whatever else DAZ bought might have been a good thing when they did it, but it also might be a huge pain in the butt right now. Or maybe not. Nobody knows. Maybe they just didn't want the other guy to have them. Or maybe the conditions at the time were a lot better than they are now. Nobody knows, except DAZ. So don't make believe you know, just accept that you don't and move on.

    What is clear today is this:

    1. DAZ is a real small company that has a lot of software to work on (ESPECIALLY for such a small company)
    2. A lot of the software has duplicate functionality, and it is written very differently and requires guys who can deal with very different and very specialized software...not easy to find
    3. It takes many years to develop that software and add features, and any big features they start on today won't be done for years
    4. DAZ doesn't have unlimited funds
    5. They have to please their investors with a healthy profit or they won't have any more investors.
    6. DAZ's only real 'edge' in the market is its ability to handle characters and premade content. Other than that, the software is, in general, not real impressive (in most hobbyists' view) compared to what's out there. ie, Blender.
    7. It's also pretty clear that DAZ has turned course toward content, not software.

    Now, I'm sure there are others, but that alone tells you that it's not about who loves Carrara, it's about whether Carrara can give them a profit, considering that the cost for development is huge (especially with all the duplicate and disparate functionality), as is the time it takes to realize a return on that investment.

    You guys can argue until you turn purple about which is better, who loves Carrara, whether they should sell it, and on and on, but until you can figure out how Carrara, they way it is TODAY, can give DAZ a good profit, then all that talk is just talk. It takes YEARS and lots of money to develop cool features. YEARS. If they start today it will be YEARS from now before it will be ready for market.

    It all comes down to money. Personally, I don't see how Carrara can bring in any significant revenue when D|S, a very similar application (in most hobbyist's view) is totally free. You can argue about plugins and hair and dynamics and all that, but the vast majority of DAZ's market couldn't care less. They'll take the free software that allows them to play with content over that fancy stuff that costs $250 (or more) any day. Sure, there are exceptions, but the majority of the 3D market is guys who just want to play with cool software, especially if it's free.

    Which, BTW, is why content is such a brilliant and wonderful market to have a semi-monopoly on. People like cheap stuff that gives them instant rewards, and that's exactly what content does. Software, on the other hand, is a huge pain in the butt to manage and develop.

    And, like I've said before, if they did sell it, the company who buys it has the same problems to deal with. But they probably won't have revenue from content to fall back on, so they'd be even stricter on requiring that Carrara provides a good profit on its own.

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • Kevin SandersonKevin Sanderson Posts: 1,643
    edited December 1969

    JoeMamma2000 said:

    And, like I've said before, if they did sell it, the company who buys it has the same problems to deal with. But they probably won't have revenue from content to fall back on, so they'd be even stricter on requiring that Carrara provides a good profit on its own.

    Exactly. That's why whatever company silly enough to buy it would have to charge more. At least with DAZ, their main business is content and if that's doing well, they can throw a little money toward the software, especially if it's selling, because it's now a promotional tool of sorts (look what you can do with our content). And at least there are folks at DAZ somewhat familiar with the code, a new company would have to start all over and Carrara wouldn't be Carrara.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 2012

    Yeah, if some other company were to approach me (if I were Mr. DAZ) and ask me why they should invest money in purchasing the Carrara code from me, and what does it have that people (ie, the average hobbyist, which is DAZ's market) would want, I'd have real tough time.

    Well, it does content. But so does free D|S, and so does Poser.

    Well, it is pretty comprehensive, since it has a lot of built-in environment stuff.

    And it's got some fancy stuff that the average hobbyist probably doesn't care much about. And a nice interface that we all like a lot. Which unfortunately doesn't sell software ("Buy Carrara: You'll Just LOVE the Interface !!!")

    And on the flip side, it's pretty sucky in terms of cool 'buzzword' features (unbiased renderers, fluids, cloth/dynamics, fire and smoke, etc.)

    And they'd have to invest a lot of years to bring it up to speed, and probably by the time they brought it up to today's standards it would already be 5 years (or more) out of date.

    And like I've said over and over, the worst part is that as soon as Blender can work well with content, and maybe gets rid of that 'bad interface' reputation that is still haunting it, Carrara is suddenly, for the most part, out of the picture. Blender has all of those cool buzzword features, and they're implemented really well for the most part.

    So, if you were an investor, would you buy that software?

    Post edited by JoeMamma2000 on
  • 3DAGE3DAGE Posts: 3,311
    edited December 1969

    DAZ is DAZ. DAZ has a completely different situation from other companies. It has investors who provide funds. Limited funds. It has competition, probably a different market than other companies, different resources (people, skills, products, etc.). And as with most companies, goals change. Sometimes overnight. So what worked yesterday might not work tomorrow.

    Investors invest in a company in order to gain a financial "Return" on their initial investment,..
    they don't just give a company money to spend.

    If the company isn't performing as the investor expected, then the investor withdraws their funding...at any time.

    All companies in all markets have competition. ...

    you should think a lot about things before you write them,. especially if you have no idea what you're talking about.

    All companies have different individuals (Staff) but with similar resources (Skill-sets) EG accounts, payroll, etc, and most companies have different product ranges or services from other companies. (that's how we have competition and a diversified marketplace)

    I'm not sure what point you''re making here. other than,.. Daz3D is a business, with investors and staff, selling products in a marketplace.

    Thankfully "Most" companies do not change their goals overnight. and I don't see Daz3D changing their goals,.
    Can you explain what you mean by this ?

    perhaps you can list a few of the companies which you're basing this assumption on,. or is it purely speculative conjecture.


    What is clear today is this:

    1. DAZ is a real small company that has a lot of software to work on (ESPECIALLY for such a small company)
    2. A lot of the software has duplicate functionality, and it is written very differently and requires guys who can deal with very different and very specialized software…not easy to find
    3. It takes many years to develop that software and add features, and any big features they start on today won’t be done for years
    4. DAZ doesn’t have unlimited funds
    5. They have to please their investors with a healthy profit or they won’t have any more investors.
    6. DAZ’s only real ‘edge’ in the market is its ability to handle characters and premade content. Other than that, the software is, in general, not real impressive (in most hobbyists’ view) compared to what’s out there. ie, Blender.
    7. It’s also pretty clear that DAZ has turned course toward content, not software.

    Point one is intended to suggest that a SMALL company is at a natural disadvantage,. this is a wrong assumption based on ignorance of reality and has no basis in fact. ...some small companies are world leaders in their field.

    Point two is another wrongly assumed disadvantage.
    look in any store at any product range, and you will find competitive products with similar features being sold , sometimes by the same manufacturer under a different brand name (Market diversity).

    Point three dismisses the facts that Daz have built Daz Studio (to be independent of any possible "third party software developments) while continuing to develop Hexagon Bryce and Carrara, and in the last year have added genesis technology to the main two figure handling applications DS and Carrara. (both of which are still in development)

    Point four,. who does .?

    Point five,. Investors can withdraw at any time. but that doesn't prevent a company seeking alternative investors or other avenues of funding.

    Point Six,. All the other "professional" 3D software makers have not added support for Poser/Daz Content to their programs, despite being larger and better funded,...( they rely on third party (plugins) to offer limited functionality) (or expect their users to be making their own models from scratch)
    This really is a massive market advantage for Daz3D and it's library of (ready to go) content, which makes it instantly more accessible to the first time buyer, or the Student on a budget.

    Point seven,. unfortunately shows a complete lack on understanding of Daz3D as a business, and it's development history.

    Daz3D started as "Zygote", and made 3D models,. they sold / licensed some of these models to the owners of Poser, as part of the bundled content,. Since that time,. Daz3D has developed into a "Retailer" of content which is now mostly made by other people (published artists)
    Daz Started as Content suppliers, and have remained content suppliers,. but have also acquired some 3D software, in order to add a better foundation to their company by insuring they have their own software which their content library will continue to work in.

    So, before work on Daz Studio beta began, Daz3D where content suppliers, and that was, and remains,.. the "CORE" of their business.
    They were not software developers,. who also sold content..
    They are content retailers who also now develop their own software, and by doing so they avoid being tied to any changes in the development of third party software by another company.

    If you're going to delve into a debate about how a company should be run or how it should market it's products,. at least have some relevant and factual information, some practical experience, or actual knowledge of what you're saying,. otherwise it's as useful and relevant as the rambling nonsense spouted by a village idiot.
    it's also potentially damaging as it can become the source of other speculative rumours.

    The real fact is that NONE of what you're assuming is either "Clear" or based on any reality,.
    instead, you're assuming things,. .....and apparently believing them to be correct, or at least, asking the reader to accept them as correct statements of fact.

  • JoeMamma2000JoeMamma2000 Posts: 2,615
    edited December 1969

    HEY ANDY !!! How are you?

    Wow, and everyone was saying I had some beef with YOU. Sounds like the other way around.

    Andy, I'm not going to respond, because I know it will just turn into a long drawn out battle over, well, whatever.

    I'll just wish you a very Happy New Year !!! :) :cheese: :)

  • ManStanManStan Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    I have to question just how valued owr patronage is. Apparently it isn't valuable enough to be kept informed.

  • 3dOutlaw3dOutlaw Posts: 2,471
    edited December 1969

    Well if it makes anyone feel better...I upgraded (though did not get the serial code yet), because I know what Carrara can do, and I was re-inspired by Howie's new stuff. :) Kevin does make a point about making good stuff will get folks to buy. If people buy, Daz makes a profit, and that perhaps sends a message that they should hire an intern. :)

    I think Carrara Cafe was geared at that goal. Daz should really get the Galleries back working correctly. Seeing what you can do (in video, animation and render), really highlights Carrara's capabilities, which is real good for many hobbyists.

    IMO, it should be something that highlights Carrara's strengths...that other low cost options are lacking (like surface replicator, particles, trees, ability to change something quick in model room, etc) Straight content/posed renders really don't sell it, based on what someone can do in poser or ds (which also have options for octane and lux)

    Anyway...waiting for serial code, and then to jump back in.

    (on a side note, I did not realize Bryce had procedural terrains, that was mentioned...I really like that in Vue, need to re-check that out)

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,624
    edited December 1969

    Serial code is in your account, here at Daz3d!
    Have fun with it!

    Oh... and the SN for 8.5 beta is in the first post of the stickied beta thread, here at the forum.
    Cheers 3d.

This discussion has been closed.