Zbrush Topology has changed (But I didn't do anything)

Richard Haseltine

This discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere useful, and is of limited relevance - Male-M3dia isn't acting a representative of Daz, and I'm pretty doubtful that the ability or otherwise of non-PAs to benefit from creating their own HD morphs was part of Daz' thinking about how to distribute and license the plug-in.

Daywalker Designs

IsaacNewton said:

Not false; read comments on problems with software trying to make maps from mesh sculpts. Yes, software can make a painting (map) based on your sculpt. Is it as good as a proficient human painter (map maker)? No, not yet! Maybe in a few years.

Normal maps and bump maps are rarely hand painted because they are directly related to the surface of the mesh. The only one that usually is is the surface texture map, but it doesn't have to be.

IsaacNewton

Male-M3dia said:

IsaacNewton said:

Male-Mdia. I beg to differ! I think my comparison is correct and your "different brand" analogy is incorrect. I will show you why.

The difference between sculpting in low definition and high definition is a difference of resolution not style. This is not a case of "McSharp's proprietary fine sculpting tools" being better quality than "TrueCut proprietary fine sculpting tools." It's the difference between using fine sculpting tools and a spade. Your other analogy of making fried chicken at home is also incorrect. The difference between low poly sculpting and high poly sculpting is not a difference in recipe it's a difference in work flow and consequent resolution. You can make fried chicken without KFC's secret recipe but you can't make fried chicken if all you have is a candle to cook with. To make fried chicken you need a frying device (which brand is not so important). To make high definition sculpts (using the sculpting method) you need a high definition mesh.

You also suggest " If someone doesn't want to sell then they are better off using the normal maps as that's more efficient."

There is no "better off" here; that suggests a choice! Someone who doesn't want to sell (a non-PA) doesn't have a choice of which method to make HD morphs in Genesis3. There is only one method available to a non-PA (efficient or not) and that is maps.

The difference between sculpting morphs in a mesh and making morphs by making maps is exactly the same as the difference between a sculpter and a painter. To say one method of making art is better, or more efficient is irrelevant if you only prefer one method over the other or only have the skill set necessary for one of those methods.

By all means say (some) HD morphs can be made equally well by sculpting HD meshes or by painting HD maps, but again that is cold comfort to the sculpter who can't paint!

Nor is it particularly comforting to be told.... experts in painting maps have been making HD morphs for years by painting maps. Jolly good for them, I say! But I'm a sculpter not a painter, just give me access to a HD mesh!

I don't think you understood how any of this works. Again, the HD tool requires a low poly mesh workflow. You can't get around that. So you're asking for a HD mesh, but you can't get around the low resolution requirement. That's not how this works. The HD tool isn't a workaround from you learning how to sculpt on a low poly mesh. So basically you're asking for something you simply don't know how to use. Learn to sculpt in low poly first, then make your details with the subdivided mesh based on that, then generate your maps. That's how you get towards the tool because you simply don't sculpt on a high poly morph and import it because that's not how the tool works. I've repeated myself several time in this post because this point needs to be driven home.  It seems like you are arguing for something not because it's necessary, it's simply because you don't have it and you think it will solve something that it actually doesn't. Again, you need to learn how to use the low poly workflow first. And based on this, I still stand by my brand comment because you haven't disproved that.

Also the "better off" comment is a true statement. You aren't just working on a subdivided mesh and importing it.. there are other steps involved in order for it to work (which i mentioned in that other thread that I linked). By that time you would have been done with the the sculpt and generated the maps before the HD morph would be read to be used, hence the commerical application.

In my opinion you are totally wrong in almost every aspect of what you have said in this post. It is quite clear that we will never agree on this subject, so maybe we should leave it there and let people make their own minds up.

Male-M3dia

IsaacNewton said:

Male-M3dia said:

IsaacNewton said:

Male-Mdia. I beg to differ! I think my comparison is correct and your "different brand" analogy is incorrect. I will show you why.

The difference between sculpting in low definition and high definition is a difference of resolution not style. This is not a case of "McSharp's proprietary fine sculpting tools" being better quality than "TrueCut proprietary fine sculpting tools." It's the difference between using fine sculpting tools and a spade. Your other analogy of making fried chicken at home is also incorrect. The difference between low poly sculpting and high poly sculpting is not a difference in recipe it's a difference in work flow and consequent resolution. You can make fried chicken without KFC's secret recipe but you can't make fried chicken if all you have is a candle to cook with. To make fried chicken you need a frying device (which brand is not so important). To make high definition sculpts (using the sculpting method) you need a high definition mesh.

You also suggest " If someone doesn't want to sell then they are better off using the normal maps as that's more efficient."

There is no "better off" here; that suggests a choice! Someone who doesn't want to sell (a non-PA) doesn't have a choice of which method to make HD morphs in Genesis3. There is only one method available to a non-PA (efficient or not) and that is maps.

The difference between sculpting morphs in a mesh and making morphs by making maps is exactly the same as the difference between a sculpter and a painter. To say one method of making art is better, or more efficient is irrelevant if you only prefer one method over the other or only have the skill set necessary for one of those methods.

By all means say (some) HD morphs can be made equally well by sculpting HD meshes or by painting HD maps, but again that is cold comfort to the sculpter who can't paint!

Nor is it particularly comforting to be told.... experts in painting maps have been making HD morphs for years by painting maps. Jolly good for them, I say! But I'm a sculpter not a painter, just give me access to a HD mesh!

I don't think you understood how any of this works. Again, the HD tool requires a low poly mesh workflow. You can't get around that. So you're asking for a HD mesh, but you can't get around the low resolution requirement. That's not how this works. The HD tool isn't a workaround from you learning how to sculpt on a low poly mesh. So basically you're asking for something you simply don't know how to use. Learn to sculpt in low poly first, then make your details with the subdivided mesh based on that, then generate your maps. That's how you get towards the tool because you simply don't sculpt on a high poly morph and import it because that's not how the tool works. I've repeated myself several time in this post because this point needs to be driven home.  It seems like you are arguing for something not because it's necessary, it's simply because you don't have it and you think it will solve something that it actually doesn't. Again, you need to learn how to use the low poly workflow first. And based on this, I still stand by my brand comment because you haven't disproved that.

Also the "better off" comment is a true statement. You aren't just working on a subdivided mesh and importing it.. there are other steps involved in order for it to work (which i mentioned in that other thread that I linked). By that time you would have been done with the the sculpt and generated the maps before the HD morph would be read to be used, hence the commerical application.

In my opinion you are totally wrong in almost every aspect of what you have said in this post. It is quite clear that we will never agree on this subject, so maybe we should leave it there and let people make their own minds up.

Yes, we can disagree on this. People can make up their minds on how I know it works because versus how you think it works. I gave a suggestion on what they need to learn first before requesting a tool which requires them to perform the same steps.

deleted user

Well what if I've already learned how to morph on base poly? You assume we dont know how...

Richard Haseltine

This thread seems to be going in circles, and as noted above is not really addressing a relevant issue since Male-M3dia is not in a position to decide or explain the Daz policy on the HD morph loader. It is therefore being locked.