TOS and EULA changes: for those not reading the other forums

Frank__

Hi all,

(please mods, don't delete or merge into another forum; lots of people here don't read the other forums. I promise to be as fair to all sides as possible :) )

a) if you try to download a purchased product, any purchased product from your history you will be presented a new EULA, which has some part reading:

*********
If User does not agree to the terms of this EULA, please do not select the “Accept” button below or continue User’s purchase, download, or use of any Content. In the case User does not accept this EULA, User must delete any and all previously obtained Content from User’s computer systems and from any backup devices that User may have used.
*********

The second sentence is maybe "legaly problematic", at least anywhere out of North Korea ...

But DAZ is looking into it. So simply don't do "Accept" and wait until some other lawyers working for DAZ got this worked out (emphasize "some other"). No reason to get upset at the moment.

b) Due to a new announcement of TOS, commercial advertising of stuff not sold at DAZ is no longer allowed. And it's not clear at the moment, if some of us no-commercials are allowed to announce new products for Carrara (plugins).

I started with this "New Carrara product"-topics after the last change of TOS, which prohibited DAZ vendors to announce their new product in the DAZ store in this forum and I had never a problem doing this with a mod, but this time it's about vendors selling their stuff in their own store - which would affect almost every plugin-vendor for Carrara, especially fenric.

I have mixed feelings on this, but I can understand DAZ's marketing reasoning (emphasize: "DAZ's marketing")

"Dustrider" mentioned this plugin-problem in a thread in the Commons repeatedly but obviously (by the latest answer of DAZ_BHowell) the powers-who-were have some problems to understand. So I ask for some ideas on how new plugins can be advertised to the same crowd frequenting this forum at the moment (I don't like Carrara cafe's forum for the sole reason I need to set up another account and another password).

Maybe Carrara cafe could be the place where to post new plugin-developments if it was featured on the starting side and updated timely. What do you think?

(Please, no FUD on this; I'm already dooming to the side of Stan and Joe and after the great announcements of some DIM/CMS, which is useless for anyone with a organized runtime and the capability to open a file by clicking "File", and now the EULA and the TOS and no more freebies and ... I tried it, Richard, Chohole, don't hit me :) )

thoromyr

If you don't appreciate the DIM then you haven't blown nearly as much money as I have here...

I'm no fan of Carrara Cafe simply because its design is ... the nicest thing I can think of is "heavy and sloppy".

Consequently, I'm in favor of things being done here at Daz. Though I do *try* to read the Commons at times, unless you give up your life to the forum you'll miss most anything that gets posted there. There was a discussion (on the old site) about Carrara products sold here at Daz being mentioned in the Carrara forum -- because most Carrara users don't live in the Commons and never see the announcements.

Now, for something not sold at Daz... that's a bit different, but unless it is actually *competing* with a product sold here any mention of it is only a bonus for Daz because it helps to promote their product (Carrara, without which any plugin would be rather pointless). If the non-Daz plugin were sold at, say, Rendo, there would be some negative by exposing people to the world of content not vended through Daz's storefront, but for a personal store (Inagoni, Digital Carver's Guild, Fenric) that doesn't enter into it.

I would think that a reasonable approach would be for Daz's marketing to control exposure of third party sites (such as those aforementioned) but provide a practical way for users of Carrara to discover them and the products sold there. Perhaps a page linked from the Carrara product with a listing of these sites? A user wiki page that has a user written summary of them? Something, but it should be readily discoverable by owners (and potential owners) of Carrara.

I can see how Carrara Cafe would, in principal, be a good fit for this and that site (I believe) has Daz's approval. But I've already mentioned my objection to that...

wetcircuit

The good news is that the store now remembers what you've already bought, and tells you before you buy it again... Ehh, yeah.... I didn't say it offset the bad news....

I try to keep a list of current plugin links on my website (on the sidebar).... I'll continue to do that...

Are we even allowed to say if a plugin got updated?

araneldon

I suppose it might be okay in the midst of some other discussion, and as long as you don't say anything positive about the product... maybe?

Chohole

Some points raised by the OP are indeed still under discussion.

This post in particular in the Ciommons discussion I copy over here

DAZ_ann0314 said:

DAZ_ann0314 said:

OK I have some answers for you:

From Steve Spencer:

There have been several questions raised about the new EULA. Specifically:

- The 7 day Warranty:
DAZ EULA's have always included a 7 day Warranty. The Warranty is different than our return policy. Our policy has not changed in this respect.

- User vs. Household licenses of software:
DAZ EULA's have always granted a license to a single user. This is not a change. We have actually expanded the licensing by allowing multiple computers and physical locations for the user.

- Language requiring the removal of previous content if the EULA is not accepted:
We will be revising this EULA to remove these statements.

I think that catches most of the main questions though if there are others not answered here or if you need more clarification, please let me know :)

Re-posting to be sure this isn't missed :)

IN the discussion thread in the Commons most questions are actually being answered by people who are very much in the Know, poeple who don't normally post in the forums.

AS regards Commercial products, the old TOS allowed DAZ 3D PA's to post Commercials in either the Commercial Forum and the Commons, or in the Commercial Forum and the Program specific Forum. Non DAZ 3D vendors however were only allowed to post in the Commercial products forum.

Now no Off site Vendors are allowed to post Commercial adverts.

There are some things that are still under discussion, and we will keep you posted as the discussion develops.

thoromyr

chohole said:

Now no Off site Vendors are allowed to post Commercial adverts.

While I have a measure of disagreement, I do understand this. How does this apply to a user, not an off-site vendor, posting?

For example, my recent posting history has some rather nice things to say about both Digital Carvers Guild and Fenric plugins. One might even consider them advertisements. For example, a set of shaders I've been working on would not be possible without the DCG plugin (from Shaders2, IIRC) that allows using calculated illumination. For example, you can use the calculated illumination to drive a color gradient or mixer (I've attached an example). Really powerful stuff. Is this sort of posting allowed?

There are some things that are still under discussion, and we will keep you posted as the discussion develops.

Much appreciated.

Chohole

I can't give a definitive answer at this point. As I said I will keep you posted. As a Brycer I am well aware that there are some insular sub communities within the general DAZ 3D community whole, and this is one of them.

wetcircuit

Thanks Chohole.

3DAGE

Hi Frank :)

after the great announcements of some DIM/CMS, which is useless for anyone with a organized runtime and the capability to open a file by clicking “File”,

this is wrong,..

Dim allows you to download and install content into any folder you want,.

what DIM cannot do,. is read your runtime folder/s,(possibly multiple runtime's, and possibly customised) ...figure out what content you've already installed, and where you've installed it to,. (again, possibly customised by users moving or renaming folders after the installer has installed the product)
and somehow "Manage" that already installed content for you.

that's why it makes sense to install the product you download using DIM, into a separate folder structure

Nobody is saying that you NEED to delete any of your existing setup,. but if you rebuild it using DIM to download, install and manage those products,.. then you can delete the old folder structure without really changing anything other than the ease of installing / uninstalling, or moving products from one runtime/content folder to another.

But,.. if you want to take advantage of DIM to download, install, uninstall and manage your content,. then it's "Advisable" not to install those items into your existing setup,.
Mainly so that you don't have conflicts between products being installed with DIM, when the existing product has already been installed with an installer/uninstaller,. to avoid older product installers removing files which have been installed using DIM or Vice versa.

With metadata in products, and Smart content,. all being handled by the content management service,.. it's now possible to load an item of clothing,. and to automatically see the materials for that item,..displayed in the browser,.. ready to apply them with a double click.

So,.. the "OLD" way of navigating to runtime folders, then to the materials, then find the folder for that product's materials,..
is beginning to look like a waste of time. when you compare it to how smart content can be made to work for you.

last point,. DIM downloads the products as "Zip" files,. and if you're used to dealing with extracting files from a zip archive, then there's no reason that you can;'t install those zips by hand,.. the only problem will be that you won't have a product installer / uninstaller. and that DIM, (since it didn't install the file), won't be able to manage or uninstall that file.

I've been using PC's and fixing them since the early 80's and as an old DOS head, I'm used to managing files and folders,.
but I'm really not interested in customising multiple runtime / content folders, or using databases and spreadsheets to help me manage my content. I also don't understand why many people think that they need to have all of their purchased content installed on their drive, all the time,. mostly taking up space and not being used. that's actually the opposite of "good file management".

Dim gives you open access to all of your products,. and you can easily download and install your products when you need them.
So, you could have all your main figures, and some "most used" clothing, hair, props etc,,
and if you want to use something which isn't installed,. you can jump into DIM, select a product, and either download and install it to whatever runtime folder you want, or install it from your archive of Zips if you've already downloaded it.
then when you're finished using that product,. you can jump into DIM and uninstall it again,. and it's a pretty painless process, when compared to product installer / uninstallers

spending hours managing folders and files,.. is really not why I like 3D.

Dim makes my life a little easier.

Hope it helps :)

Frank__

3DAGE said:

Hi Frank :)

after the great announcements of some DIM/CMS, which is useless for anyone with a organized runtime and the capability to open a file by clicking “File”,

this is wrong,..

[...]

Dim makes my life a little easier.

Hope it helps :)

I know what DIM does and I really like the switch to zip-files, but I meant by "organized runtime" every other structure, which follows not the original way the installers put the items in. My runtimes are completely structured in a way to find my stuff fast and easy and all stuff (poses, materials, characters, props etc.) reside in (for me) logical paths under the "libraries\Character"-directory (because Studio and Carrara aren't dependent of the old Poser structure what makes these/my structures possible).

So if I need to change the mat for e.g. the Morphing fantasy dress I go to "Character/Clothing/F4/Dress/Evening/Morphing Fantasy/Mat" (or MAT Alicia or MAT BlockRose etc.). And to find a camera (not that I need a camera :) ) for Stonemasons "Urban Sprawl 2" I would go to "Character/Architecture/Urban/Stonemason/Urban Sprawl 2/Camera"

I'd put a lot of time into moving files from the original place after the installation to my prefered place. I do so every time I install new content.

(I used at first the content database in Studio but soon realized that this wouldn't help me with Carrara and so went the physical route of moving files. And using the Windows equivalent of the DOS-Norton Commander I'm quite speedy in doing this ... )

Now to fully get the advantages of the DIM I had to download and install everything again (which takes not so much time), but then to move everything into my prefered place again. Doing this for I-don't-know 2600+ items makes my life surely not easier ... :)

Nevertheless: your description of the advantages of the DIM/CMS is quite helpful for those who want to go the DIM/CMS route and don't have a highly optimized runtime-structure at hand.

And now I have derailed my own thread ... tststs

Chohole

OK Update on the EULA, as promised. If you check now you will find that the clause that was giving you doubts is no longer in the EULA

3DAGE

Hi Frank :)

Yes, i understand that you've customised the folder arrangement, after the products have been installed,. but, to be honest, this is not the best idea, since if you want to update those products, or uninstall them, then the product installer/un-installer will not work,. and you'll need to remove those files / folders manually,.
If that saves you time,. I'm not seeing where.

Also,. the main reason that you're taking the time to customise your installed products is,.. the way that content "used to work"
where you loaded a product from it's own folder,. then navigated to the materials folder for that product, and loaded the materials etc...

That's what's changing.

With product Meta-data, and the CMS, plus smarter content,... that doesn't need to happen. (although there's still some work to be done in updating older content)

for example: If I select the Freak5, then the smart content browser in carrara, shows me all the Hair, Clothes, Poses, etc,.. which will work on that figure.
If I load and select an item of clothing,. then the smart content changes to show me the materials which work with that clothing item.

no more searching through folders.
although you can still do things that way if you want to.

one other point,.
Although it may not be obvious to most user why Clothes were in the poser (Figures) section of the library,. or Materials were in the (Poses) section,...
the fact remains that all the products were built to use that poser file structure, and they had to keep to those "rules",.. So,. moving files, or renaming folders, after you install them,. can often break the file connections between the product and it's files, which will either produces errors when loading a product, or,.. a broken product.

I still say that if you want to customise your install, then there's no reason why you can't create a folder for all your Stonemason props,. or any other folders you want,. and use DIM to install products there, and update them, or uninstall them.

but if you want to do everything manually, that's your choice too.

:)

Frank__

3DAGE said:

Hi Frank :)

but if you want to do everything manually, that's your choice too.

:)

Hi Andy, :)

I don't uninstall stuff; HD-space is cheap. And updates are installed to their structure and after that moved to mine, overwriting the older files. Also no problems with broken links in Studio/Carrara as long as I move between the defined Poser-folders Character, Camera, Lights, Poses, Props, Hands.

I don't know if I wanted to do everything manually but I had to start with a more intuitive structure long before a CMS was on the horizon or I would have been completely lost :) And my manual sorting has the advantage of working with products (from other marketplaces) which lack meta-data.

For someone with an already confused/cluttered runtime or someone starting with only a few things, which already have meta-data, I absolutely support you reasoning. :)

Frank__

chohole said:

OK Update on the EULA, as promised. If you check now you will find that the clause that was giving you doubts is no longer in the EULA

That was fast and is appreciated. :)

Now only the commercial announcement-problem. I think DAZ could easily allow those stuff supporting their own software (not content) in the respective sub-forums. It isn't like the Carrara-forum is overrun by commercial announcements ...

Chohole

They already have the option, if they are DAZ pas, to have the 2nd thread in the Carrara, or whatever forum.

Frank__

chohole said:

They already have the option, if they are DAZ pas, to have the 2nd thread in the Carrara, or whatever forum.

The problem is that the plugin-developers aren't (or aren't all) DAZ PAs.

And if a new developer wants to start a new plugin, a new WIP-thread is impossible, because the to-be-developed plugin could be commercial and not sold in the future at DAZ (for what reason ever). This plugin would not take anything away from DAZ, but support their software - nevertheless under the new TOS any advertising/announcement wouldn't be allowed.

Chohole

Yeah, that is one thing that has yet to be explored. We will not forget to keep asking.

wetcircuit

chohole said:

Yeah, that is one thing that has yet to be explored. We will not forget to keep asking.

Thank you again, Chohole!

Chohole

you're welcome. We Insular people should stick together. :coolsmirk: