Understanding Poser bump settings to better convert to Studio
cwichura
Posts: 1,042
I am working on setting up an old environment prop that was built for Poser in Studio, which includes no Studio material presets. I don't own Poser, so I can't load this into Poser to examine the settings in Poser. When this prop's .pp2 files are loaded, the only thing loaded are the diffuse textures. The 'legacy compatibility' section of the material definition in the .pp2 doesn't reference the bump maps. However, the shader tree nodes do list the bump map info.
I've gone through and manually loaded the bump and spec maps into the appropriate slots. But now I need to manually configure the min/max bump values. I'm hoping someone can give me insight into what the three parameters of the bump value in a Poser shader tree node mean in Poser so I have a starting point on converting them to Studio.
The value entry for the Bump node of the jukebox in this prop is ".1 0 10", for example. I'm guessing the three values map to "strength min max", but with some decimal places shifted around. If so, I'm assuming the strength of .1 would translate to 100% in Studio, given I've seen other Poser stuff with .0xx values in this field. But what about the min and max values, assuming that's what they really are? What units are these in?
Thanks
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Comments
the dial settings in Poser are pretty much the same as in DAZ Studio.
What you have to be careful of is how Firefly treats the Grayscale of the bump vs how 3Delight treats it.
I *think* (but do not quote me) that black is neutral in Firefly and Gray 128 is neutral in 3Delight. I know this is true of Displacement Mapping.
Again, I don't have Poser, so can't see the dial settings. I am looking at the raw .pp2 file using a text editor.
you should be able to apply them and look at them in DS.
DAZ only sees the settings in the 'legacy' section, which these .pp2 files don't specify. The bump settings are only present in the shader tree version of the material settings, which Studio doesn't parse. Hence why I'm hoping someone is familiar with how Poser parses shader tree info so I can convert them myself.
If I'm right, and Poser Firefly treats Bump map grayscale differently than 3Delight, it won't matter...
This may seem stupid, but it could be that you would be better off asking this in the poser forum.
Sure about that? I was doing a fix-up job on a Poser-format scenery prop a couple of weeks ago, and the Poser settings imported into D|S gave barely visible surface features a tiny fraction of a millimeter high instead of several millimeters as seen in the supplied sample pics.
The min/max values aren't the only problem, there is also the Bump Strength dial — in many, if not most, cases this will be set ridiculously low and is the main cause of the "tiny fraction" I mentioned above. I usually dial this up to 100% with min/max at defaults, do a test render, and fiddle with the min/max if it doesn't look right.
I have to agree with that. When I use a bump map in poser I dial it to a tiny percentage. I know Neil has to alter it a lot when he does the DS settings for my textures.
And displacement in Poser, Black is flat and white is raised, with shades of grey in between. To do 2 way displacement, ie below the level area you have to insert a negative math node in poser, whereas in DS mid grey is level, with darker shades going below and lighter shades raising up.
ok when loading the bump map you need to open it in an image editor and look at the file to see what it looks like first befoer you even play with settings
is the bump map a desaturated texture map then it works quite well in DS
does it look all grey will not work that well without some extream settings
for setting for the first type would set the strength to 100% at try setting the neg and pos to something like -0.045 & 0.045 and test without the texture map applied so that you can just see the bump. you can then adjust up and down as needed.
this is what I do when I convert to DS settings
if its the second type which is a poser type bump map you will still set the strength at 100% but set the neg and pos to much higher I would start around - 2.5 and 2.5 and see what that looks like.
IIRC Poser uses the RGB value in the texture + the strength to determine how far out to "move" the mesh in both Bump & Displacement, DS doesn't, it uses the pos & neg to determine how far in and out to "move" the mesh based on the RGB value of the texture, and the strength to control the overall effect, so trying to copy the settings from one to the other is fool hardy to say the least.
Especially as most bump & displacement maps are utter garbage to begin with, grayscaling the diffuse map does not make it a bump map, as there if far to much of the wrong info in the texture for it to be of any real use.
As far as it goes, bump and displacement MAPS are treated the same. Displacement maps actually affect the geometry, bump maps do not. If you want the movement to cast shadows, affect the profile and look like it is actually 'part' of the object...use displacement. If you want it to look like it has 'texture' but don't need/care about shadows, use bump mapping. Normal maps are another option...
In DS (3Delight) a color value on a displacement or a bump map of 0,0,0, a min value of -0.1 and a strength of 100% will be 1 mm BELOW the surface. A value of 128. 128, 128, min -0.1, max of 0.1 and 100% will be the surface/no movement. 256, 256, 256, max 0.1 and 100% will be 1 mm ABOVE the surface.
In Poser (Firefly) a color of 0,0,0 will be the surface (no movement), while 256, 256, 256 will be the most it can move, combined with how ever it determines the distance (I don't have a real good grasp of exactly HOW Poser determines the distance) to move....basically the color is the 'strength'.
And before someone pops up with 'you can make DS behave like Poser' etc,..the problem with that is...IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO ACT THAT WAY!!! 3Delight allows displacement/bump movement in BOTH directions from the surface, UP or DOWN.
Thanks for that MJC! I wasn't sure.
In Poser a displacement value of 1 means a displacement of 1 inch. 1 corresponds to the white color in the displacement map if it is directly connected to the displacement input. The displacement value is multiplied with the color. In DS the situation is slightly more complicated, because displacement is the business of the shader, and that could be changed. However, for the DAZ Studio Default shader a displacement of value of 1 corresponds to 1 cm (which just happens to be DS's unit). To determine the displacement value, it is multiplied by the displacement strength and transformed so that the range from 0 to 1 fits into the min-max-range (min and max are not to be taken literally, they are no hard limits). So to convert from the Poser value, which is found in some prop file, it should be sufficient to change the min value of the shader to 0, the max value to 2.54 (for one inch), and the strength to the displacement strength value of the prop (multiplied by 100, because it is in percent).
You wont get an argument out of me on that one MJC, I've been saying that for ages, sadly around here it just feels like your talking to your self when you do, the main color in a map has to be medium gray (RGB 128) anything else and 3Delight starts making those displacement bound warnings, especially if your working in the shader mixer.
Thanks all for the comments and suggestions. Sounds like there really isn't any straight-forward conversion that can be applied. The bump maps with this product look like they were purpose made -- not just a grayscale or desaturated version of the diffuse texture (e.g., for the posters, it is made to look like they are old and curling/pulling away from the wall in places where the adhesive has lost is stick). I guess what I will do is run the bumpmaps through ShaderMap 2 to create normal maps out of them, where it should be easier to adjust their strength rather than doing hundreds of little test renders in Studio.
Well, having spent a couple hours running all the bump maps through ShaderMap 2 (loading them as height maps into that) and experimenting with different intensities, the various spot renders I've been doing to check things in Studio look a LOT better than when I had the bump maps loaded directly.
It's a shame content creators haven't moved more towards shipping normal maps instead of bumpmaps. They are so much easier to use. Does Poser handle normal maps properly?