Slightly OT: A computer question
NV Oracle
Posts: 139
I actually wasn't sure where to post this. (If it belongs somewhere else, if a mod would move it, I'd greatly appreciate it.)
Up to now, I've been using using a Pentium 4 computer, with 2GB (I think), and 512MB of Graphics RAM. Studio, Hex, and Bryce have all worked on it with no problems. (Well, there is a problem, but not with the three programs. The problem is with a driver upgrade/a piece of hardware in my computer) My question is this, I think. I'm going to be getting a laptop with 3GB of RAM (I'm not sure about the amount of Graphics RAM, or the Graphics card in it. I have the question in to the store where I want to purchase (by email), but I haven't had an answer back yet.) and with Windows 7 (Home Premium) on it. Will I have to rely only on the XP emulator, or will the three programs run, or am I just barking up the wrong tree?
Any help you could give me, or if any of you know of any issues that have risen, I'd really like to hear about them, so that I can be forwarned. LOL.
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They will all run in Windows 7, I'm running all three on Windows 7 myself.
It would be wise with any change to assume you might encounter some minor hurdles with the change (although nothing comes immediately to mind), but there shouldn't be any showstoppers.
What processor are you getting in the new laptop?
get at least a Quad with 6 to 8 G and a graphic card with 1g for sure .
sound from what you said that the one you are looking at is Qual .
I don't have a lot of money to throw at this, so I can't buy the lastest and greatest, or the most up to date. If I'm understanding the information correctly, it's an Intel core 2 with 3GB (at 2.53GHz) between them, but it's the Graphics card that I know nothing about. I've emailed the store for that question, and something else, but they haven't gotten back to me, yet.
ok - just be sure it has a card with 1G .of its own .
It would be helpful if you could find out the exact graphic chip it has. You imply it's an inexpensive model and you say it's an Intel CPU laptop, and only has 3GB of RAM, so it's likely to have an Intel graphics chip (but could have an nVidia or AMD chipset). There have been some issues with some Intel graphics chips but many have worked OK. Intel Dual Core 2 CPU is OK but specifics would help us give a better estimate of performance.
Laptop manufacturer: HP, Dell, Lenovo, Toshiba, Acer, Asus, ...?
Exact CPU type number? is it a 64-bit or 32-bit processor?
64-bit Win7 or 32-bit Win7?
Processor speed: 2.0GHz, 2.5GHz, 3GHz, ... ?
Exact Graphics chip manufacturer & number? Intel, nVidia, or AMD?
Can you point a link to the catalog entry of the computer?
Regardless, if the graphics chip is OK, then this machine will probably run somewhat better than your older Pentium machine but it isn't going to be the fastest horse in the race but you will probably be happy for a while.
4GB RAM would make a big difference over 3GB if you're running 64-bit Win7 on a 64-bit CPU. 3GB is OK but is the recommended minimum. Trying to run Win7 and a heavily graphic program in 3GB is like the circus fat lady trying to change clothes in an airplane restroom. It can be done but it ain't pretty.
A 32-bit operating system like Win7_32-bit can only use 2GB of RAM (3GB if you set special options). Since the machine is being sold with only 3GB it might only be a 32-bit Win7 running on a 32-bit (or possibly a 64-bit) CPU. But probably doesn't have a separate graphics card, just the integrated graphics chip.
Here's a bunch of "ifs":
If it has a 64-bit CPU but only a 32-bit Win7 you would be able to upgrade someday to a 64-bit Win7 for about $100.
If it has the ability to support 4GB of RAM you can probably upgrade from 3GB to 4GB someday for about $25. If it's a 64-bit CPU.
Upgrading the graphics chip later is probably NOT an option. Separate graphics cards in a laptop usually only come in the top-of-the-line models.
Edited to add:
And I agree with the post below this one: Getting an underpowered machine is very disheartening.
I have a dual core Pentium Dual-Core 64-bitCPU laptop with, 4GB RAM, nVidia chip, running at 2.1GHz and yeah, it works to run DAZ apps but I don't use it for that because it does run into barriers too quickly. (i.e. more than two characters or 1 character and a complicated architecture/landscape it it starts to crawl.) But is is better than trying to run on a 2GB Pentium4 single core, 32-bit Vista machine at 3GHz.
Strongly recommend 64-bit quad-core CPU, running at 3GHz, with 8GB RAM, and an nVidia chip or card, under 64-bit Windows7 (or 8). However, if not possible then:
64-bit Intel Core-i3 (or Core-i5) CPU running at at least 2.5GHz, with 4 (or 6)GB RAM, and an nVidia or AMD chip under 64-bit Windows 7 (or 8).
Note: Intel Core-i3 is a dual core chip, whereas Intel Core-i5 is usually a quad-core chip but some models are dual-core.
You need to be very careful. I certainly understand not having a lot of money, but it'll cost you more time and money if you buy a computer that's still underpowered for what you want to do. You'd be better off waiting while you save up to get something better.
The built-in graphics card can often be an issue for 3Delight. Best make sure it has an NVidia or AMD card.
It's often easier to compare if you know how much you can spend on a computer. And 3GB seems a little underwhelming, as most computers comes with 4-6-8GB's depending on configuration. Mostly the newest models comes with a bare minimum of 4GB's and Win8 (you can make it work like Win7 by adjusting some settings). But you can get even cheaper models if you buy used, though I recommend getting a new one as you don't know what mal-ware has been installed by the previous owner.
Some things to consider:
i5 intel processor
4 GB's ram
500-750 GB's HDD
1 GB's Nvidia-card
Why these and not other stuff? It's because the less hassle with crashes and mismatches hardware/software. Some programs runs better on Nvidia. I've heard about AMD, and I once had ATI, but suffice to say if you stay with some of the bigger brands in graphics-cards, the less hassle it'll be with your software. It's typically because any software-company uses Nvidia-cards in their tests.
The best thing, however, is to wait a bit until you can get enough funds to buy a computer that you'll have for the next 5-6 years. Buying a cheapo with 3 GB's will restrict how much you can import into a scene in your software of choice (no matter which brand).
This is very interesting and helpful information. Thanks to all, although those answers were not directed at me.
What about screen resolution? I have been eyeing some of the cheaper Intel Core i5 laptops lately (still do not have enough money to buy though) but then one day my friend came in and noted they are all crappy, because they have screen resolution 1366 x 768. I was so focused on CPU and RAM all the time that I totally forgot to consider this parameter as well. I have never had a laptop before, so I had no idea what to expect. But when I looked into this, I soon found out that the majority of laptops sold has this screen resolution and that all laptops with better resolution are either too expensive, or do not have enough RAM and/or CPU power. What would you guys recommend? Which screen resolution do you have?
Absolutely! I keep forgetting that inexpensive laptops often cut a lot of their cost in the screen resolution. 768 pixels high is just too small for DAZ Studio (or any sophisticated graphics program).
900 pixels high is the absolute smallest that you should even consider. Unfortunately a laptop with full 1080 pixels high tends to bring the price up out of the "inexpensive" range. There are even higher resolution screens on laptops but they are definitely not inexpensive.
However, if the laptop has a video output port it may be able to support an external monitor ($150) with higher resolution (1920x1080 pixels) but if the chip is too cheap it may not. :-( Finding and interpreting the detailed specifications for the computer in question is highly recommended. If a laptop has an HDMI video output port you can be pretty sure it will support a high resolution external monitor. But if it only has a VGA video output port it may not.
My current rules of thumb for a half-decent graphics capable machine?:
1) If a laptop is less than $600, buyer beware!
2) If a desktop is less than $500 buyer beware!
Not saying it's not possible to get an acceptible less expensive one but you've got to do your homework.
Go to www.NewEgg.com and sign up to get their daily bargains e-mailed to you. Then watch and wait. You might catch a great deal on a refurbished laptop or even a new one. But you've got to examine the detailed specifications! And don't panic if you see a deal and it's not the right time to get it. Another one will come along.
RAM is incredibly cheap nowadays and having enough of it can aid your creativity by leaps and bounds. Even a powerful processor can slow to a crawl when you run out of memory and start into the swap space on the hard drive. Six gigabytes should be your bare minimum, especially if your computer has integrated graphics. Also, there is simply no reason to settle for a 32 bit operating system any more. If you're even halfway serious about CG, you need a 64 bit OS.
Thank you for your advice, LeatherGryphon. The NewEgg.com is sadly no option for me, as they don´t ship internationally, but it is great for people from the US.
I just went from a 4 Gig, 32-bit Pentium Dual Core 6600 with a 20" monitor to a 12 Gig, 64-bit i7 Quad Core with a 23" monitor, and although the old system was a workhorse that did its best, rendering on the new system is like night and day, as is the larger monitor running at 1920 x 1080. If you can't afford a significant upgrade in power right now, unless you have no choice, it's best to wait until you can afford it. I don't usually buy the very newest or the very best, but I always try to buy enough power that I know should last me at least the next four years or so.
I appreciate all of the information that you folks came up with, but my problem is money, or at least a lack of it. Initially when I started doing my taxes this year, I thought I was going to get a substantial amout of money, but, instead I got a fair bit less than I thought I was going to, so I can't even think about the latest and greatest.
As I said before, the current computer is a Pentium 4, that's going on 8 years old, folks!! That should show you how often I do this. I am not rolling in dough. Due to the economy, and how hard it hit my state, I'm just barely making enough money, between my job, and unemployment, to cover my monthly bills. There is no extra, for saving for anything, or even for the once in while DAZ purchases. When I am able to buy something, it either has to be something I want very badly, or I have to know that I'm going to use it for more than one render. I can't even buy something just because it's on sale, that's how bad things are.
Now, to answer someone's question. The new computer, the laptop, is 32 bit. The store still has not answered my question about the graphics card, so I still don't know the answer to that.
Does it really have to be a laptop?
For the same amount of money you'll usually get more in a desktop.
How about www.TigerDirect.com ?
I think we all completely understand your money problems. We just don't want you spending money on a computer that is either a very minor upgrade in performance, or could even be more problematic for you.
Is this an on-line store? If so, not posting detailed specifications is a red flag to me. It could mean they don't care, or don't want you to know, or computers are not their primary stock in trade.
Is this a standard off-the-shelf laptop from a well known company? If so, what manufacturer, what model? It might be possible to Google that specific model and find a store that lists the detailed specifications. That's why I like NewEgg.com (and don't like Amazon.com) for electronics.
Since it is only a 32-bit machine, with a dual core CPU it will probably perform a little better than your existing machine but it's a dead-end machine. The little bit of performance improvement you get now will quickly become disappointing. Adding more memory isn't going to help because it's already got as much as it can use. And will probably be wasting a third of it most of the time.
Knowing more details of the machine would help us. But if you can wait and watch you should keep your eyes out for at least a 64-bit dual-core CPU; 64-bit Win7(or 8); 4GB RAM; and either a medium sized screen (900 pixels high) or a laptop with an HDMI video output so that you can someday attach a decent external monitor. And believe me 4GB RAM makes a BIG difference over 3GB.
Large internal disk storage isn't critical. You can always add more or bigger external hard drives when necessary. 500GB would be nice but even 350GB would get you started.
"The problem is with a driver upgrade/a piece of hardware in my computer"
Wait a sec. rather than buy a new computer, lets try to fix your old one. This may not cost anything, especially if it is a driver issue; and if it is a faulty graphic card, one of us might have a spare laying around collecting dust?
"The problem is with a driver upgrade/a piece of hardware in my computer"
Wait a sec. rather than buy a new computer, lets try to fix your old one. This may not cost anything, especially if it is a driver issue; and if it is a faulty graphic card, one of us might have a spare laying around collecting dust?
Yeah, I completely missed that. What exactly is your issue? How did you get to this point?
The thing that concerns me the most is that this new system is only going to have 3GB of memory. Being a laptop and an inexpensive one at that, that almost guarentees the video card will be integrated which means the video memory will be taken from that 3GB's and of course the OS is going to eat into that as well as any programs you might run in the background. Even without programs running in the background that means you'll have less then 3GB's maybe even less then 2GB's to work with. I'm not sure about the other programs you mentioned but Bryce works pretty much entirely in memory and so you'll likely find you can't do as much as you used to be able to do unless your old system had only 3GB of memory or less. I would strongly encourage you to get a system with at least 4GB's of memory minimum preferably more then 4GB's if you can. Especially if it's a laptop as they tend to be less flexible about what memory you can add and being so small they are difficult to upgrade by yourself, so you could be looking at a costly memory upgrade down the road if you find the 3GB's impacts your use of the programs you listed.
I think we all completely understand your money problems. We just don't want you spending money on a computer that is either a very minor upgrade in performance, or could even be more problematic for you.
I appreciate that, TheWheelMan.
@LeatherGryphon, yes, the store is online. It's Tampa Laptops. (www.tampa-laptops.com) Initially I saw them on Amazon.com, but after researching them, and seeing what their prices were, I was thinking about ordering my laptop from them.
@Type O Negative, the driver, and the Graphics card is so old that the company that makes it doesn't even have drivers on their website for this particular graphics card anymore, that's how badly out of date it is, and it would be more expensive to either attempt to fix this one, or even buy a new desktop computer than it would to buy a used laptop. I have researched this every possible way that I know of. Besides, my brother and I share our computer, and through a friend of his at his volunteer job, he's getting a brand new laptop from this friend, so instead of getting a desktop that I can't even afford, I was going with a laptop that I can.
@LeatherGryphon, we got to this point because, approximately a year, maybe a year and a half ago, my brother attempted to get a driver off the manufacterer's website (the Graphics card in the old computer is a NVidia graphics card). A couple of weeks or so later we started noticing that whenever we would do anything video related, either watching videos offline, or if I was working in Studio, or if we were watching video online, the computer suddenly will blink, and go back to the beginning of the boot sequence. (Once the boot sequence is complete, nothing, except for internet usage, and word processing usage is at the point where we were when the computer hiccupped. The WP that I have has an automatic save feature, and Google Chrome (my internet access) automatically saves where I was if we don't get out correctly)
Initially my brother thought perhaps the difficulty we were having could also have been brought on because, at the time, we were using a WiFi adapter to surf the internet, but now we have DSL, and we're still having the problem, so I don't think it was that.
@LordHardDriven, thank you for the well thought out response. I currently do not have the money to get a 4GB system. I also do not have the money to buy any other software, unless I find it FREE, and I will not unless the money falls out of the clear blue sky. The only time I have anything extra is when tax season rolls around. The old system only has 2GB and only 512MB of video, so I'm thinking that I won't have any problems (or at least I'm hoping not.). I don't plan to add any other programs to this system that I don't already have.
I want to thank all of you that responded to my questions. You've given me a fair bit to think about, and I greatly appreciate it, but at this stage in the conversation, I think I'm going to close this thread, as we're just going around in circles, rehashing the same points.
If a moderator would please close this thread, I'd appreciate it. Thank you.
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Oh... I didn't realize you were talking about a used laptop. I thought it was a newer machine. This changes the game.
Is it the Dell Latitude E6400 laptop at www.tampa-laptops.com for $239?
If so, it was originally an expensive machine. However, it now has an attractive price but it's 4 years old. Probably a business fleet recycle with an OS upgrade to Win7 from the original Vista. It probably has the Intel GMA 4500HD graphic chip, with 256MB RAM space rather than the higher priced optional Nvidia Quadro NVS 160M.
I'm not against refurbished machines less than a few months old, but recycled laptops four years old are a big risk. Has the hard drive been replaced? If not that's a major risk. Also, how long before the cooling fan stops working? Computers only have two moving parts. The media drives and the fans, and those things are rarely rated for more than 3 years. Do all the keys work properly? A four year old battery is pretty much usless. The review I read said that the hard drive was only 160GB, which is pretty damn small for a graphics machine. Getting a used laptop is like getting a used car. Does the water pump need replacing? Are the radiator hoses rotting? Has the transmission been checked?
Hmmm... let's see. New battery $100, new hard drive $80, new operating system $100 that's $280 that should have been put into it to make it a proper machine. But even if the company can get those parts for 25% less he's still not making much profit. I suspect that only the OS has been upgraded and you have the original, nearly worn out, too small, hard drive and a dead battery.
I'd steer clear of that machine, and keep saving for one that really fits the bill.
But it's your decision and I'll say no more. Bye.
Don't buy something that is almost obsolete just because it better then what you have now. I did that for many years and probably wasted more money than I saved. Be patient, save your money, do some hardware research and watch for sales. The big box stores often have real good buys around August and September for back to school sales.