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Bump vs Normal Map

wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
edited February 2013 in Daz Studio Discussion

Okay, playing with one of Nobiax's texture sets (shareCG)

He has a normal map, they're all in TGA format, easily convertable to PNG, and they work... so I applied the Normal Map to the Normal channel on the DAZ Default shader... WOW! I mean WOW!

http://www.sharecg.com/v/66394/related/6/Texture/Free-tilling-textures-pack-38

Try it, I used Set 189 for this test... what am I looking at? It looks fantastic! Like it's more of a Displacement map than a bump map!

189test.jpg
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Post edited by wancow on

Comments

  • SpottedKittySpottedKitty Posts: 7,232
    edited December 1969

    Normals are supposed to be like Displacement, but with more flexibility. More difficult to get right, though.

    Thanks for the pointer, there's some very nice stuff here I could use. Not done much with tiling textures yet, but it isn't all that complicated.

  • adamr001adamr001 Posts: 1,322
    edited December 1969

    Yup, normal maps rock. They're "3D bump" maps so they tell the render engine not just to raise or lower a point but also to move it left and right or backwards and forwards. Totally, totally rock.

  • pwiecekpwiecek Posts: 1,575
    edited December 1969

    Not to detract from them, but remember that normal maps are not displacement. They won't change the actual shape of the mesh.

  • SpottedKittySpottedKitty Posts: 7,232
    edited December 1969

    So... erm... how do I get these normal maps to work? Downloaded a few of the sets, I've plugged the diffuse into the Diffuse parameter, specular into the Specular Colour, as usual, and the normal into the single Normals parameter.

    And the plane I've applied the maps to renders flat. Tried moving the lights around, adjusting the plane angle for a narrower viewing angle, etc. Great-looking textures, but it still renders as a flat plane. Is there something else I should be doing?

    ISTR I had this same problem with normal maps in a Poser prop I bought from Renderosity a little while back. Is there something different between Poser and D|S in the way normals are handled?

  • mjc1016mjc1016 Posts: 15,001
    edited December 1969

    SpottedKitty said:
    ISTR I had this same problem with normal maps in a Poser prop I bought from Renderosity a little while back. Is there something different between Poser and D|S in the way normals are handled?

    Yes...up until fairly recently Poser didn't do normals, at all. Right now, I'm not entirely sure what the differences are, but there are some.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    SpottedKitty said:
    So... erm... how do I get these normal maps to work? Downloaded a few of the sets, I've plugged the diffuse into the Diffuse parameter, specular into the Specular Colour, as usual, and the normal into the single Normals parameter.

    And the plane I've applied the maps to renders flat. Tried moving the lights around, adjusting the plane angle for a narrower viewing angle, etc. Great-looking textures, but it still renders as a flat plane. Is there something else I should be doing?

    ISTR I had this same problem with normal maps in a Poser prop I bought from Renderosity a little while back. Is there something different between Poser and D|S in the way normals are handled?

    I'm using them in DAZ Studio. I have no clue how they're handled in Firefly. All I know is they seem to work very well in 3Delight.

  • 2getit2getit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    SpottedKitty said:
    So... erm... how do I get these normal maps to work? Downloaded a few of the sets, I've plugged the diffuse into the Diffuse parameter, specular into the Specular Colour, as usual, and the normal into the single Normals parameter.

    And the plane I've applied the maps to renders flat. Tried moving the lights around, adjusting the plane angle for a narrower viewing angle, etc. Great-looking textures, but it still renders as a flat plane. Is there something else I should be doing?
    ?

    It's rendering flat because normal maps don't change the mesh of the object you are using, it's just a flexible bump map with more detail... Displacement maps move the mesh around

  • SpottedKittySpottedKitty Posts: 7,232
    edited December 1969

    But if I'm rendering, shouldn't I be able to see the effects of adding the normal map? Is there something else I need to do?

  • prixatprixat Posts: 1,588
    edited December 1969

    you shouldn't need to do anything else. You don't even have to convert them, Targa works fine in studio.

    here i've got a single distant light and just the normal map (no diffuse or specular) tiled onto a primitive sphere.

    normal1.png
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  • 2getit2getit Posts: 0
    edited December 1969

    SpottedKitty said:
    But if I'm rendering, shouldn't I be able to see the effects of adding the normal map? Is there something else I need to do?

    No matter what you do, you still will end up with a flat plane, normal maps and bump maps give an illusion of detail, whereas Displacement maps actually move the mesh around the object...Normal maps are great if your looking directly at them or sorta at an angle, but when you get right up on it you will be able to tell that it is only flat....

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,504
    edited December 1969

    I think the best way to describe it is to say that it affects how the surface is lit rather than how it's modeled. A flat plane will always be a flat plane, but you can get a great illusion of depth from it by using a normal map. Far more so than you'd get with any bump map.

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    That was how I understood it in the first place. However, it is also my understanding that Bump Maps and Normal Maps can be complementary if they are not repetitive. For instance, that normal map we have applied, if I also add a noise map on the bump channel... and wow... I'm loving Normal Maps!

    bumpnormal.jpg
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    bumpnormal1.jpg
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  • frank0314frank0314 Posts: 13,910
    edited December 1969

    I just recently started using normal maps and can't believe i got by with not using them. They are absolutely great and give you in depth detail. nvidia make a nice plug-in for photoshop for creating normal maps. https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-texture-tools-adobe-photoshop

  • wancowwancow Posts: 2,708
    edited December 1969

    I wonder if it'll plug into gimp...

  • marblemarble Posts: 7,482
    edited December 1969

    Frank0314 said:
    I just recently started using normal maps and can't believe i got by with not using them. They are absolutely great and give you in depth detail. nvidia make a nice plug-in for photoshop for creating normal maps. https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-texture-tools-adobe-photoshop

    There is a free photoshop action/script for creating normal maps here:

    http://quixel.se/nDo1/#home

    and a tutorial here:

    http://www.philipk.net/tutorials/ndo/ndo.html

    I'm just trying to figure out how to use it. So far the maps look inverted to me - maybe I need to invert the original grayscale.

  • Herald of FireHerald of Fire Posts: 3,504
    edited December 1969

    Frank0314 said:
    I just recently started using normal maps and can't believe i got by with not using them. They are absolutely great and give you in depth detail. nvidia make a nice plug-in for photoshop for creating normal maps. https://developer.nvidia.com/nvidia-texture-tools-adobe-photoshop

    You do need a little extra work to get the best out of it, but it works pretty well for the most part. Layering multiple normal maps with different filters can give a really powerful effect on the final result, especially when working with more subtle things like skin textures.
  • Hiro ProtagonistHiro Protagonist Posts: 699
    edited December 1969

    wancow said:
    I wonder if it'll plug into gimp...

    GIMP has a "clone" of the NVIDIA plug-in.
  • wscottartwscottart Posts: 442
    edited December 1969

    I know this is an old thread, but I never read in the thread how to apply these normal maps in Poser. After a little looking around I found out that you plug these into the gradient bump channel.

    I never paid much attention to normals, really had no ideal what they were until a few days ago, and now i'm seeing them used in some really fantastic reality renders.

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