Hats and hair, why so complicated?

defectedsaint

So I have a question. This isn't a , how do I get x to y, type of thing. I know there are resources out there that a person can use in order to attempt to get hats and hair to work nicely together, with varying degrees of success. What I want to know is, why are they even needed? I don't understand how DAZ does what it does, if I did I probably wouldn't need to ask this question. But it seems to me that hair and hat issues have been ongoing for years, why is that? Is it so hard, on the software/development side of things to get hats and hair to work together natively? I mean why do hats not just simply overide the hair models where they clip? I guess the simple answer would be because there are no such things as layers, I don't think, in DAZ. Even still, I really don't understand what the challenge would be. Is it that hard to program DAZ to render the hat over the hair? Even if the hair shows up as clipping, I know developers know that hair isn't supposed to clip through a hat, why not just save everybody a lot of trouble and work that out? Is it really that complicated of a process? I mean it might be, I genuinely don't know, which is why I'm asking. I've tried the hair+hat helper, and it works, for some hairs, but should it even be necessary? Normally on the rare instances I ask a question, within minutes of me asking I'll have figured out how to fix/do what I want done. This isn't something I can figure out though because I don't know how the software does what it does. Is it really that hard to program what I'm thinking into DAZ? If so, why?

kaotkbliss

I've also thought the same thing when it comes to dynamics and pokethrough. Why is it that everything calculates by vertices instead of facets? Dynamics has the problem where if there isn't enough vertices, it has trouble calculating where an item should collide. If it worked on faces instead, it would be easy. At least in my mind. this issue would also relate to yours because then a simple smoothing modifier would push the hair below the hat as the geometry collided.

FSMCDesigns

go get a modeling program and learn to model, then you will be amazed at how all the mesh works together as it does already.

The Diigitals

couldn't you use a dynamic cloth program on the hair, then import the hat, set it to collide, it should push the hair down and greate a realistic look? I mean just a theory...

SixDs

The current version of DAZ Studio does not include a physics engine that is capable of emulating realworld dynamics, as is often pointed out when such questions arise. There are tools within the program that can be used to help, such as collision and deformers, but, as FSMCDesigns has said, they are no substitute for an external modelling program or an application that is capable of dynamics.

"Is it really that hard to program what I'm thinking into DAZ? If so, why?"

 Yes, it is hard. And complicated. Which is why most of us don't just write our own programs. Bear in mind that DAZ Studio is not intended to be a Swiss army knife of 3D like Blender, in the first place.

SixDs

"couldn't you use a dynamic cloth program on the hair, then import the hat, set it to collide, it should push the hair down and greate a realistic look?"

No. Dynamic cloth basically drapes one object over another. Draping the hair over the hat wouldn't necessarily simply force the hair into the hat, but also drape it over the sides.  So, the solution is to take both your hat and hair into an external program and fit the hair to the hat and bring it back into DAZ Studio as a morph.

defectedsaint

Hmm, I see. So it would be legitimately hard to do. Physics aside, it wouldn't be possible for the program to do it based on hierarchy order? I know I'm probably trying to over simplify things, but would that not be possible? Thanks for the responses :)

Cris Palomino

Or use something like https://www.daz3d.com/sy-hat-and-hair-helper-genesis-8

WendyLuvsCatz

lasso select using geometry editor, hide polygons

then if you wish,

 delete hidden save as a new support asset under another name, suchandsuch hair for such and such hat

defectedsaint

Cris Palomino said:

Or use something like https://www.daz3d.com/sy-hat-and-hair-helper-genesis-8

I tried the gen 3 version of that. It definitely helps, but not all hair/hat combos play nicely even with that. The way I've decided to go about doing things is set the scene up hopw I want it to look, hide the hat and render the scene. Once that render is done, unhide the hat but hide everything else and render the scene. Superimpose the image of the hat on the main render and add a drop shadow in photoshop. It works.

Cris Palomino

defectedsaint said:

Cris Palomino said:

Or use something like https://www.daz3d.com/sy-hat-and-hair-helper-genesis-8

I tried the gen 3 version of that. It definitely helps, but not all hair/hat combos play nicely even with that. The way I've decided to go about doing things is set the scene up hopw I want it to look, hide the hat and render the scene. Once that render is done, unhide the hat but hide everything else and render the scene. Superimpose the image of the hat on the main render and add a drop shadow in photoshop. It works.

Yep, two renders is how i've always done it.  Sometimes i do more, depending on my needs.  Model with hair, model without hair and with prop hat, hair only. Plus things like Liquify in Photoshop help.

Richard Haseltine

Rendering the hat in front of the hair would not give the right result - only the bits of the hat that are in front of the hair should be modelled that way, and you would get hair projecting from the brim of the hat if it could be done which is patently wrong. It isn't really a process that can be automated, and from what I've seen even dynamic solutions are far from perfect.

wolf359

Why not release some hybrid hair/ hats 
with fringe hair already attached to the rims/brims etc. ??

Not so much a "hat" but this for this mask ,
I simply built the punkish Hair into the mask itself
"Aeory Soul" has released similar Hybrid head gear in the past.

 

 

Drip

wolf359 said:

Why not release some hybrid hair/ hats 
with fringe hair already attached to the rims/brims etc. ??

Not so much a "hat" but this for this mask ,
I simply built the punkish Hair into the mask itself
"Aeory Soul" has released similar Hybrid head gear in the past.

 

 

 

SaveThat's how the better hats are usually done. But, since they can't please everybody, and can't include 5,000 hairstyles with each hat, it's generally marketed the other way round: as a hairstyle with an optional hat included. So, if you're looking for hats with hair, then don't go shopping for hats with hair, but instead shop for hair with hats, and hope to find a hairstyle vaguely like the one you usually use (don't worry, most gets covered by the hat, and people expect the visible part to turn out slightly different because of the hat).

https://www.daz3d.com/serenade-hair is a good example. If your character is supposed to have a bobline, and the hat is more or less what you're looking for, then it actually doesn't matter that the bob is slightly different from the regular one you use in your other renders. Hair gets deformed when you put on a hat, you brush some locks out of your face when you put on a hat, and in the end, people won't even notice if it turns out an inch or two longer.

Very few hats are generic enough to blend well with different hairstyles. And even then, they generally require very short or very straight hairstyles, without any curls, tails or stray locks. Don't ever resize a hat to fit. It looks terrible.