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...I remember reading similar threads when I first began this concerning the Mil3 vs Gen4 figures (which at the time was represented only by Vicky).
Spent most of the five years I've been in this developing my Leela and Tracey characters for my story using Vicky/Steph 4 and various morph sets by Thorne/Sarsa and Jamminwolf (Rendo) as there were no basic Gen4 teen models. Pushed things pretty much to the extreme, at one point successfully creating an eight year old version of my little piano playing resistance fighter just using V4 and Thorne's Tommi. Yes it is a tremendous feeling of accomplishment, but having to go through this time and time again for multiple scenes tends to make the process more difficult than it needs to be. Added to that were clothing fits, which were a real pain in the bum even using the Morph Follower in 3Advanced or third party tools like XD and WW.
What attracts me to Genesis is that I can blend other almost any other shape (including toon characters which never could be accomplished before) and morph set with it. Through GenX with the "legacy" body shapes, I have access to most of my Aiko3/Gen4 clothing content and character morph library.
On the side of Genesis (for me at least) Thorne/Sarsa's Young Teens were just what the doctor ordered for my Leela and Tracey. They actually look like teenagers, not just slender, slightly smaller versions of the adult figures as the Mil3 Teens did. I didn't see it "invalidating" all the work I did with the Gen4 versions, rather, it gave me valuable experience and insight into what I needed to do to make these new figure meshes come alive as my own characters. I'm still tweaking small details but the girls now look so much more like the visions I had of them in the sketches I did so long ago.
So even though I now work with Genesis, the Gen4 figures and content still have a lot of miles to go.
My only misgiving is that they never did a David3 to Genesis shape as I have a lot of D3 clothing (preferred David over Michael).
Genesis won't appeal to everyone based upon the kind of art they do. But the ability to blend every morph you have for Genesis to make new characters is hardly trivial, particularly if you're into creating unique human characters or sci fi-fantasy characters.
...my goal in this respect is to create my Sabrinno race for illustration of the SF story I came up with decades ago. With Genesis, the creature morphs GenX, and the Garibaldi Hair system I feel I now have the basic tools needed.
interesting thoughts, and i agree DSON in poser is tedious and time consuming compared to the results i can get with genesis in DS. For me, clothing support, ease of use and time saving workflow are key to me. Personally i could care less what app other users use for rendering or animation, but when i read that poser users want what I already have with using DS and they refuse to give it a try, i feel i have to say something in the hope they might realize there is an option they are missing..
I was one of those Poser only users (ver 5-2012) that wouldn't use DS, mainly because of the UI which made no sense to me coming from poser, yet I stepped up to learn it due to wanting to use reality and Luxrender. I believe that if more poser users took the time to actually give the UI a chance they would use it more and probably prefer it due to some of the features that are not in poser which make life much easier.
I have all the WM figures that the poser only users rave about and prefer, and i have V4 with all the 3rd party fixes but so far nothing works better than genesis IN DS4.5 for my workflow. Anything else feels like moving backwards
Reality 3 for Poser comes out very soon and while I am excited to see and use the new features in Reality, the thought of working in Poser2012 again and missing some of the features in DS4.5 leaves me lukewarm at best.
...for me Poser Pro 2012's one big advantage is and will continue to be user created dynamics which is why it is still in my workflow. Yes DSON is a pain, but still worth the time as I will be using it for assisting in the design of my own Dynamic clothing for Genesis which I can drape, pose, then export into other apps (like Carrara or Bryce) for creating finished scenes.
119$ I paid for Pro 2012 vs 15,000$ for Optitex's Runway Designer? Yah, I think Pro 2012 wins.
http://www.daz3d.com/david-3-for-genesis
I find I still use Gen 4 a great deal. That's mainly because I have plenty of bits and pieces for those figures and have converted many Gen 2 and Gen3 bits upwards. Character sets for Gen 4 are still appearing - I recently bought Stolz which has an M4 version. Older skins work with Gen5 using Gen 4 mapping so are still useful.
One of my current projects is making small libraries of lower res figures with Decimator to drop into the background of Vue scenes and I'm using Gen4 for those because of the huge variety of bits and pieces I've collected.
http://www.daz3d.com/david-3-for-genesis
Yup, love the shape and the clothing conversion template is really good too. Hiro3 and David3's templates even convert shoes over near flawlessly to Genesis. I have quite a few conversions... mostly Adzan's clothing sets he did for both figures.
Actually it would - the problem is that two maps on the G3 layout need to end up on one map on the G4/Genesis layout and there's no way to do that.What about using Texture converter to convert the Gen3 maps to Gen4. I thought that was one way to get a workaround?
Hi Kyoto Kid,
Just thought you might like to know that there is a D3 shape. I just checked on Genesis and he can be found in parameters under male and there was a clone to go with him. I have happily transfered things like the Bard tunic using it.
Doh Ninjaed by Mike...
Yes, you can do it with Texture Converter, which creates a new set of maps. You can't do it by changing UVsets and using the same maps, the way you can switch the other Genesis UVsets.
I have to disagree heavily here. There are tons of items in my runtime which were never specifically designed for some of the shapes I have. Because of the weight mapping, the majority will fit perfectly even under more extreme morphs. Trying to do the same in the Gen4 series was incredibly difficult and borderline frustrating. Those Genesis ones which are a bit misfit can either be smoothed or otherwise quickly remedied. The same task with Gen4 was a far more laborious and time consuming process with exception to a few paid-for tools such as CrossDresser.
While I won't disagree that the Gen4 were (and still are) outstanding figures, Genesis still has a massive upper hand in terms of flexibility.
I didn't know you could actually transfer items without paid-for-tools like Cross-Dresser, so I was kinda presupposing those were used.
And it's not like you can't use smoothing on Genesis clothes only, it helps with fitting any kind of clothing to any kind of figure, as far as I can tell.
Still, we don't seem to disagree too much, as I said, Gen4 is usually a bit more tiresome to work with. Genesis is usually easier, yes. But no, I doesn't end the problem of fitting clothes once and for all.
I don't think gen 4 is on it's way out. There are still plenty of buyers for gen 4 content.
That said, I prefer gen 5 content and have been trying to wean myself from buying gen 4 stuff. I am primarily a daz user and am somewhat tired of adjusting my gen 4 poes- for example.
http://www.daz3d.com/david-3-for-genesis
...thank you very much. Looked for him earlier but didn't see him.
I find Genesis is more than a bit tiresome to work with in Poser. I spent far too much money in October on Genesis only to discover the results using Genesis / DSON Importer for Poser / Transfer Active Morphs are hit and miss. Unfortunately, it's more often a miss. But that may be due to me being so picky about my work.
I was, of course, talking about DS only. Working with Genesis in Poser is automatically a pain, I assume, simply for having to use an exporter.
For my own part, I'm just as glad that Gen4 is going to be staying around a while longer. I've put pretty much my entire effort into learning how to dress Gen4 figures, particularly V4, correctly, and the distinct majority of my clothing runtime is for V4. It irks me when something is released that's Genesis-only, and that may well be why I don't shop as much here as at other places like Renderosity where Gen4 still accounts for the vast majority of the inventory.
I was, of course, talking about DS only. Working with Genesis in Poser is automatically a pain, I assume, simply for having to use an exporter.
Getting Genesis into Poser via the DSON is fairly painless. There a bit of a lag as compared to loading other content but nothing major. Same goes for loading clothing and hair and conforming it. Where the problem lies is in the Transfer Active Morphs script. The lengthy time lags (20 minutes to transfer the active morphs to a pair boots), library lockups, and just plain failure to transfer the morphs are what forced me give up. I don't have time for it.
You just keep doing what you do. Ever since I saw the first thing I saw of yours it took my breath away with it's style. I think I said this before, you could post an unsigned image anywhere on the net and it would be instantly recognizeable as yours.
Okay, Gen 4 has it's fan base, and that's great. It is still a viable figure for a good number of people, but I just want to chime in on why, to me, it is obsolete.
It has everything to do with SubDivision Surfaces.
SDS at this level is a quantum leap forward that I had been waiting for since 1999. (What I'm hoping and praying for now is OpenSubDiv http://graphics.pixar.com/opensubdiv/ )
Now, I do understand some of the complaints about Genesis with TriAx, but TriAx was implemented in order to get the Genesis figure to be infinately adaptable the way no figure before or since has ever been. Having clothis FIT instantly with morphs and scaling applied, even though you just made those morphs, creates a situation where the hours put into a project are significantly reduced. I would NEVER have been able to do this image with Gen4: http://wancow.deviantart.com/art/Belle-for-Lauren-360883188
My ability to make that dress hinged on SubDiv working when I fit it to the figure in D|S and the fact that I could model it to fit and still adjust the figure's body shape, which I did repeatedly throughout the project. You just cannot do that with Generation 4.
So yes, people are still making great work with Generation 4... I'm glad that during my hiatus from 3D I missed Generation 4 entirely and skipped right to Genesis...
..woah, the source code is opensource?
...and I hear you on just how powerful Genesis is. I've watched your thread since it started and was totally amazed.
Just what I've done with my Leela and Tracey teen characters floors me. What took me months, no years or morphing, combining, scaling, and tweaking, I accomplished in a several evenings with Genesis and GenX. Yes, I base them off Thorne's Young Teens, but through GenX was able to add in the extra character morphs that give them their distinctive appearance. Was just working on my namesake last night and her likeness compared with the original drawings I did years ago is scary. She was created just with Genesis, using Young Teens, Aiko5 and a bit of the male Fitness, Body Builder, and Bulk morphs (nothing from GenX as I don't have that set up in the new rig yet) . She looks like a "real" well toned gymnast which is exactly what I was aiming for (who needs SF5?).
The other bonus as mentioned above and in my previous post is clothing fits. I was able to fit her with the Immortal Ronin set (M4) without any issue save for the rope belt (which behaved a bit odd as it isn't covered by any of the autofit transfer categories) and Geta (certain Gen4 footwear that is more rigid is still a bit of a pain when posing).
Having basically been downsized from a good job, I found one with two thirds the pay that had the potential to get back up to what I was making before. Unfortunately I went from an 80 hour work week to a 90 to 100 hour work week. I probably could have kept it up (I did work 60 to 80 hours a week for over 10 years), but the new job began and ended with a 90 minute drive. After 68 hours in four days, I fell asleep at the wheel and broke my hip, my knee, my ankle and all the toes in my right foot.
That was December 2011, and I haven't worked since. Work Comp stopped paying me February 1st and I have another month to wait for a settlement, so needless to say, money is tight.
These are the reasons I cannot upgrade my computer, and thus why I am stuck using DazStudio 2.3. So the idea of Gen 4 being discontinued is laughable to me, as most of 40+GB of content I have is geared toward my Gen 3 figures. I've made a studied habit of ignoring all things Genesis so as not to get depressed.
On the upside, I think I do pretty darned good with Gen 3 figures, and have won several art contests with David 3 images in the past year..
There is only one problem with this and that's that you have very dense meshes and if you create clothing for Generation 4, when you fit them to Genesis it can be hit or miss depending on the modelling. Generation 4 modellers gan afford to be sloppy, and many of them are VERY sloppy modellers. I'm sorry to say this, but I've run into it quite a bit when I've tried to fit clothing for Gen4 onto Genesis. Two examples I can think of, one is the Clarisa hair, which is very nice, but has unwelded vertices that cause problems if smothing or subdiv is applied, and the other is a pair of cuttof jeanz, which simply will not work on Genesis without fixing them in a modeling program. Not worth my time, but maybe someone else can do this.
So if you're going to model for Gen4, and you want your stuff to fit to Genesis as well, I STRONGLY suggest you model your outfit or hair on Genesis V4 or Genesis M4 shape, then convert to V4. Go that extra mile and make everyone happy. You would even do well to leave the Genesis version low poly and let DS subdivide it.
...along with Akio3, David has been my other fave of the Gen3 figures.
While I have the Aiko3/Hiro3 Body shapes (as well as now David's) for Genesis, there are some things that still work so well only with the original figures (like the original Aikobot Maria, Aiko19, Mentha Pieprata [makes for a nice 60s hippie girl], XInXin, and many of Thorne/Sarsa's fey characters [like Sylfie]).
So they still have a lot of life left in them for me and they work perfectly fine in 4.5.
There is only one problem with this and that's that you have very dense meshes and if you create clothing for Generation 4, when you fit them to Genesis it can be hit or miss depending on the modelling. Generation 4 modellers gan afford to be sloppy, and many of them are VERY sloppy modellers. I'm sorry to say this, but I've run into it quite a bit when I've tried to fit clothing for Gen4 onto Genesis. Two examples I can think of, one is the Clarisa hair, which is very nice, but has unwelded vertices that cause problems if smothing or subdiv is applied, and the other is a pair of cuttof jeanz, which simply will not work on Genesis without fixing them in a modeling program. Not worth my time, but maybe someone else can do this.
So if you're going to model for Gen4, and you want your stuff to fit to Genesis as well, I STRONGLY suggest you model your outfit or hair on Genesis V4 or Genesis M4 shape, then convert to V4. Go that extra mile and make everyone happy. You would even do well to leave the Genesis version low poly and let DS subdivide it.
Vendors will look at their sales and decide based on what sells and what does not. If they make Gen 4 items and they sell, they'll continue to make them. As far as the two products you mentioned, what do their product pages state?
Taking a V4 product and fitting it to Genesis in DS is no different from my taking a V3 item and converting it in WW to V4. The conversion may work and it may not. I cannot blame the vendor if I do a conversion and it doesn't work.
Why would it matter if you model using V4 and the V4 shape? Modelling on one shape and converting to another may not be as simple as it sounds. Extra steps mean extra time which translates into higher prices. Higher prices will not make everyone happy.
Vendors will look at their sales and decide based on what sells and what does not. If they make Gen 4 items and they sell, they'll continue to make them. As far as the two products you mentioned, what do their product pages state?
Taking a V4 product and fitting it to Genesis in DS is no different from my taking a V3 item and converting it in WW to V4. The conversion may work and it may not. I cannot blame the vendor if I do a conversion and it doesn't work.
Why would it matter if you model using V4 and the V4 shape? Modelling on one shape and converting to another may not be as simple as it sounds. Extra steps mean extra time which translates into higher prices. Higher prices will not make everyone happy.
Genesis items at DAZ sell better than M4 and V4 items anywhere. That's my experience to date (and believe me, I have a big catalog of Gen 4 items elsewhere). Given the money, the fact that making clothing for Genesis is 200% easier, and the fact that I like Genesis much more for its versatility and other features, I will not willingly go back to making Gen 4 items. The market may push me back to that if Genesis suddenly stops doing as well as it currently is, but at the moment my strong impression is that new users are gravitating to Genesis more than Gen 4.
True, those who have always been using V4 and M4 may continue to do so, especially since some of them are committed Poser users and can't afford to upgrade to P9/PP2012. Some of my very good friends are in this category. And I have no problem with people who like making outfits with Gen 4 continuing to do so - less competition for me in the Genesis arena. ;)
...I have noticed that adding the shapes to Genesis via GenX does significantly increase the polycount of he base Genesis figure. Not as bad as the old Figure Mixer in 3Advanced (which did not optimise the fusion but instead actually counted as the poly "weight" of both models loaded at the same time). The best way to handle this is to have several Genesis - GenX fusions (like A3, V4, M4 etc) saved for specific characters and morph sets rather than try to stuff all the legacy shapes into a single Genesis figure (for some reason, a scene from of Akria comes to mind).
While there are still some issues with fitting older generation clothing (most notably footwear as the default foot poses are different between Genesis and Gen4, and long skirts/skirts with handles [though Sickle Yield has come up with a very helpful tool in this department}), I find Gen3/4 to Genesis fits (including cross gender) tend to be a lot less hit and miss. I have XD4 with a number of figure licences as well as fully updated support files and while a very valuable tool, I found I often had to spend a lot of time tweaking things afterwards as well as still resort to manual fitting in some cases. Yes no transfer/conversion utility will ever be 100% accurate, and I agree in that respect, you cannot blame the PA for something that doesn't quite work when going from one DS platform to another (e.g. Gen4 - Genesis). I even found in a few cases (such as Setsuko's School Girl for A4) where clothing content could be exclusively created for a character morph "expansion" (which A4 technically is) and not work properly with the "parent" model (V4 in this case).
When clothing content doesn't work properly for the specific figure/model it is designed for, then yes, that is a different issue.
Not blaming vendors is valid up to a point...but you have to ask yourself why some items autofit better than others when they are sometimes very similar style clothing.
I recently read a tutorial from Blondie where she discusses how to design a mesh to work with Genesis. There are some differences. So any vendor who just makes clothing for Gen4 and converts to Genesis is likely to run into problems unless they have designed their mesh to take the factors she mentions into account. I can tell you which vendors are likely to get my money and which aren't...; )
Using the variables she describes she makes products that fit a variety of shapes with no or minimal distortion.
Some of these variables she mentions are what I would call good modelling practice anyway and you can see them in items that autofit well. That's the reason why some items transfer better from Gen4 than others.
Personally I do not use any of the older human figures. Genesis is my figure of choice for a lot of reasons.
I understand that for many people they still prefer Gen4 or even Gen3 that is their choice just like using Genesis is mine.
Whichever figure people use I'm sure that people tend to buy from those vendors who provide a quality product.
...doesn't she also have a utility to assist with this?
This may very well be true as far as your product sales go, but I seriously doubt it's the same with other vendors, especially outside of Daz. I don't doubt that vendors make more $ here with Genesis products than they do with Gen 4 products because a lot of people that can't/won't use Genesis don't shop here as much as they used to since the changes, but there's no way Genesis products sell better than Gen 4 products as a whole at the other stores. There's still far too many Poser and DS users not using Genesis at this point.
I won't be done with Gen 4 or Gen 3 figures anytime soon. Even with the importer a lot of Genesis stuff does not work right in Poser.