Modeling for Genesis

DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
edited December 1969 in Carrara Discussion

As part of the Carrara toolkit, especially when Genesis is involved, here is the Daz3d Daz Studio Instructions for making clothing for Genesis.
In regards such as these, I personally intend on using Daz Studio as a part of my Carrara toolkit to get things done for my true endeavors within Carrara. Please note that if you own Hexagon and Daz Studio 4+, You may omit a lot of that process by using the Hex D|S bridge.

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Comments

  • tbwoqtbwoq Posts: 238
    edited December 1969

    Thanks for info.

    When Carrara 8.5 is released;...Import/Load Genesis to Carrara. Pose and morph the figure as needed. Then model clothes around the figure using the Assemble room modeling mode. You can easily switch back to regular mode to adjust poses or morphs, test any softbody physics etc., then switch back and continue modeling. One of the most powerful features in Carrara(imho). :coolsmile:

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited December 1969

    Well for D/S use, clothing created for Genesis is modeled on the "unmorphed" figure. If one models on a morphed figure, then makes the clothing item, the clothing doubles on the morph and doesn't look very good.

    Haven't installed my new Carrara yet ... was reading that it does uvmapping? Is there a tutorial link for that process?

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited December 1969

    Well for D/S use, clothing created for Genesis is modeled on the "unmorphed" figure. If one models on a morphed figure, then makes the clothing item, the clothing doubles on the morph and doesn't look very good.

    Haven't installed my new Carrara yet ... was reading that it does uvmapping? Is there a tutorial link for that process?

    But if you're modeling clothing for a specific shape, like a kid, vicky 5, etc., you can do that and have D|S subtract that shape from the clothing.
  • Jay_NOLAJay_NOLA Posts: 1,145
    edited April 2013

    These might help. Though one just shows off the UV mapping. The old forums had a good tutorial on UV mapping.

    http://www.sharecg.com/v/42004/related/3/PDF-Tutorial/UV-mapping-for-Carrara

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQQEh3vyVj0

    http://www.awbenson.com/tutorials/Carrara_UV/UV-Overview.htm

    The Carrara Cafe also has a video that shows you how to design an outfit for V4.

    Post edited by Jay_NOLA on
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited December 1969

    Well for D/S use, clothing created for Genesis is modeled on the "unmorphed" figure. If one models on a morphed figure, then makes the clothing item, the clothing doubles on the morph and doesn't look very good.

    Haven't installed my new Carrara yet ... was reading that it does uvmapping? Is there a tutorial link for that process?

    But if you're modeling clothing for a specific shape, like a kid, vicky 5, etc., you can do that and have D|S subtract that shape from the clothing.

    Have you actually done this?

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited December 1969

    Jay_NOLA said:
    These might help. ough one just shows off the UV mapping. The old forums had a good tutorial on UV mapping.

    http://www.sharecg.com/v/42004/related/3/PDF-Tutorial/UV-mapping-for-Carrara

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQQEh3vyVj0

    http://www.awbenson.com/tutorials/Carrara_UV/UV-Overview.htm

    The Carrara Cafe also has a video that shows you how to design an outfit for V4.

    Oh great :-) Thank you.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited December 1969

    Have you actually done this?

    Not yet... was the info in one of those links Jay put up? I found that out by reading and watching and learning about Genesis and Daz Studio. I am forever trying to figure out how to get super-long, curly hair onto Genesis - but so far, it's a lost cause. I asked the Daz3d Hair Artists to no avail, several times. Perhaps you just cannot do it for Genesis? I don't know. But when I auto-fit my V4 hair to her... it's stretched weird... but almost useable. But then if any... and I mean any facial morphs are used... it affects the hair, making it entirely unusable. Even blinking her eyes makes the hair go nuts.
    So one day, when I get the time (when is that?), I want to pursue this endeavor on my own... so I've done some research. That was then. I still haven't found time, nor has anyone made my hair. So I am rebelling in my own way by not using Genesis for anything but Monsters and Creatures. Eventually I might not even do that, and just drop Genesis entirely... who knows?
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited April 2013

    Have you actually done this?

    Not yet... was the info in one of those links Jay put up? I found that out by reading and watching and learning about Genesis and Daz Studio. I am forever trying to figure out how to get super-long, curly hair onto Genesis - but so far, it's a lost cause. I asked the Daz3d Hair Artists to no avail, several times. Perhaps you just cannot do it for Genesis? I don't know. But when I auto-fit my V4 hair to her... it's stretched weird... but almost useable. But then if any... and I mean any facial morphs are used... it affects the hair, making it entirely unusable. Even blinking her eyes makes the hair go nuts.
    So one day, when I get the time (when is that?), I want to pursue this endeavor on my own... so I've done some research. That was then. I still haven't found time, nor has anyone made my hair. So I am rebelling in my own way by not using Genesis for anything but Monsters and Creatures. Eventually I might not even do that, and just drop Genesis entirely... who knows?

    Not super long, but this is curly hair for Genesis.
    http://www.daz3d.com/paul-hair-for-genesis-and-m4 on sale atm

    There were some more and also for women, but I think the shop is being rearranged, know our Account pages were!
    edit to add: Found some. And yes they're improving the store pages too. Search function is actually making sense today.

    http://www.daz3d.com/evan-hair

    http://www.daz3d.com/beautiful-black-hairstyles

    http://www.daz3d.com/love-me-hair-for-genesis

    http://www.daz3d.com/despoina-hair


    I don't think we autofit hair to Genesis. Load the hair, rearrange it and 'parent it'. Or make her "Deltan" lol ..

    Today's accomplishments were getting my clothing tutorial released and installing Carrara.

    Okay ... I don't know what that render .exe thing was for, but it had to be deinstalled.
    Carrara reinstalled.
    Enter the key about 5 times.

    NOW it's working. :-)

    Of course, well ... would you believe that there's a huge dinosaur in this picture? Was all highlighted over on the side panel.

    scene002.png
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    Post edited by patience55 on
  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050
    edited December 1969


    Today's accomplishments were getting my clothing tutorial released and installing Carrara.

    Okay ... I don't know what that render .exe thing was for, but it had to be deinstalled.
    Carrara reinstalled.
    Enter the key about 5 times.

    NOW it's working. :-)

    Of course, well ... would you believe that there's a huge dinosaur in this picture? Was all highlighted over on the side panel.


    The Render.exe thing is probably a Render Node, and it wouldn't be installed on your main machine. If you had other computers, you could install the node on those and then you could share the render load with other computers on your network.


    There's a couple possibilities for the dinosaur not being visible. The most obvious is that the camera isn't looking at it, but the more probably issue is that you started with a large scale scene. If I'm rendering figures, I use the medium scale scene. You can still load in massive landscapes and they will work just fine.


    Read this post I made (and subsequent posts by others) which explain how scene magnitude in Carrara works:
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/19931/P15/#295478

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited December 1969


    Today's accomplishments were getting my clothing tutorial released and installing Carrara.

    Okay ... I don't know what that render .exe thing was for, but it had to be deinstalled.
    Carrara reinstalled.
    Enter the key about 5 times.

    NOW it's working. :-)

    Of course, well ... would you believe that there's a huge dinosaur in this picture? Was all highlighted over on the side panel.


    The Render.exe thing is probably a Render Node, and it wouldn't be installed on your main machine. If you had other computers, you could install the node on those and then you could share the render load with other computers on your network.


    There's a couple possibilities for the dinosaur not being visible. The most obvious is that the camera isn't looking at it, but the more probably issue is that you started with a large scale scene. If I'm rendering figures, I use the medium scale scene. You can still load in massive landscapes and they will work just fine.


    Read this post I made (and subsequent posts by others) which explain how scene magnitude in Carrara works:
    http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/19931/P15/#295478

    Will do, thanks.

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050
    edited December 1969

    I forgot to add that if you think the camera isn't pointed at your model or figure and you can't seem to find it (happens a lot in a cluttered scene), you can select the name of the figure or model in the Instances list and press 0 (zero), and whatever camera you're viewing the scene through will center on the figure or model.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited December 1969

    Not super long, but this is curly hair for Genesis.
    http://www.daz3d.com/paul-hair-for-genesis-and-m4 on sale atm

    There were some more and also for women, but I think the shop is being rearranged, know our Account pages were!
    edit to add: Found some. And yes they're improving the store pages too. Search function is actually making sense today.

    http://www.daz3d.com/evan-hair

    http://www.daz3d.com/beautiful-black-hairstyles

    http://www.daz3d.com/love-me-hair-for-genesis

    http://www.daz3d.com/despoina-hair

    I don't think we autofit hair to Genesis. Load the hair, rearrange it and 'parent it'. Or make her "Deltan" lol ..

    With the hair I need, it has to conform. I've looked through all of those. "Love Me Hair" is made by the same artist (Goldtassel Rocks!) that made the hair I'm currently using (Angelina Hair for V4). But I'm using three separate figure of it, each getting progressively longer and fuller.
    SciFiStr_RosieNH.jpg
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  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited December 1969

    That's my Beautiful, Wonderful, Wife, Rosietreats!

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited December 1969

    I forgot to add that if you think the camera isn't pointed at your model or figure and you can't seem to find it (happens a lot in a cluttered scene), you can select the name of the figure or model in the Instances list and press 0 (zero), and whatever camera you're viewing the scene through will center on the figure or model.

    Oh that's good to know! Was looking around for a little + sign or something to target the object. "hit 0"!

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited December 1969

    That's my Beautiful, Wonderful, Wife, Rosietreats!

    And indeed she is. ;-)

    There are one or two hairs that come to mind but atm I don't recall exactly where they are.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited December 1969

    That's my Beautiful, Wonderful, Wife, Rosietreats!

    And indeed she is. ;-)

    There are one or two hairs that come to mind but atm I don't recall exactly where they are. If they're at Daz3d, I've seen them. And if they seem like a possible candidate, I bought them :) Probably.
    Aven Hair for Genesis would be perfect if only it was super curly :(

    Anyways... I'm really happy with her being a V4 model. Genesis teeth are too big for her anyways. Victoria 4's just right, I think. But I sure thank you for trying. Have you tried your Hexagon Star ship in Carrara yet?
    Have you had any fun with Genesis in Carrara yet?

  • Jay_NOLAJay_NOLA Posts: 1,145
    edited December 1969

    Instillation has popped up a few times a times:

    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/entries/23183082-How-to-Install-Carrara-8

    Also, if you install DP3D Paint Brushes Sampler for Carrara you need to change the name of a folder after you install it so it will work correctly.

    Change the folder DP3DPaintBrushesSampler

    located in your Program folder at

    ...\Carrara8\Data\Strokes\DP3DPaintBrushesSampler

    to DP3DPaintBrushes

    so the renamed folder will look location wise like this now.

    ...\Carrara8\Data\Strokes\DP3DPaintBrushes

    You’ll do the a similar fix if you install them in 8.5

    I need to dig out the big Word file I made from coping and pasting stuff from the old forums, help files, which is a full instillation guide and tell what all the installer filers are and if you need to fix anything, etc. and jus post that info into a post.

    You can set up render notes if you use cloud computing to set up a network to render on if you don't want to buy a bunch of new computers and just pay for the time your using the ones in your cloud network.

    Also, if you can get a book called The Carrara 5 Pro Handbook by Mike de la Flor. Everything in it still Applies to Carrara still applies to Carrara and he goes in to using Carrara with Hexagon in it.

    Well for D/S use, clothing created for Genesis is modeled on the "unmorphed" figure. If one models on a morphed figure, then makes the clothing item, the clothing doubles on the morph and doesn't look very good.

    Haven't installed my new Carrara yet ... was reading that it does uvmapping? Is there a tutorial link for that process?

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited December 1969

    I know that in Advanced Carrara Techniques, Phil Wilkes goes through an enormous amount of detail on the subject. His whole premise in that series to to teach you how to make your own content instead of buying it. That's how I learned.

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited December 1969

    Jay_NOLA said:
    Instillation has popped up a few times a times:

    https://helpdaz.zendesk.com/entries/23183082-How-to-Install-Carrara-8

    Also, if you install DP3D Paint Brushes Sampler for Carrara you need to change the name of a folder after you install it so it will work correctly.

    Change the folder DP3DPaintBrushesSampler

    located in your Program folder at

    ...\Carrara8\Data\Strokes\DP3DPaintBrushesSampler

    to DP3DPaintBrushes

    so the renamed folder will look location wise like this now.

    ...\Carrara8\Data\Strokes\DP3DPaintBrushes

    You’ll do the a similar fix if you install them in 8.5

    I need to dig out the big Word file I made from coping and pasting stuff from the old forums, help files, which is a full instillation guide and tell what all the installer filers are and if you need to fix anything, etc. and jus post that info into a post.

    You can set up render notes if you use cloud computing to set up a network to render on if you don't want to buy a bunch of new computers and just pay for the time your using the ones in your cloud network.

    Also, if you can get a book called The Carrara 5 Pro Handbook by Mike de la Flor. Everything in it still Applies to Carrara still applies to Carrara and he goes in to using Carrara with Hexagon in it.

    Well for D/S use, clothing created for Genesis is modeled on the "unmorphed" figure. If one models on a morphed figure, then makes the clothing item, the clothing doubles on the morph and doesn't look very good.

    Haven't installed my new Carrara yet ... was reading that it does uvmapping? Is there a tutorial link for that process?

    Thanks for the corrections-to-be-made info ... will make those changes. Looking forward to seeing how all these new items will work together.

    No I won't be using the Render node .exe ... same computer "does it all". That's why it's offline!

    Tomorrow I hope to finish installing a few new purchases and then get to back into Carrara for a few hours and see what happens.

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited December 1969

    That's my Beautiful, Wonderful, Wife, Rosietreats!

    And indeed she is. ;-)

    There are one or two hairs that come to mind but atm I don't recall exactly where they are.

    If they're at Daz3d, I've seen them. And if they seem like a possible candidate, I bought them :) Probably.
    Aven Hair for Genesis would be perfect if only it was super curly :(

    Anyways... I'm really happy with her being a V4 model. Genesis teeth are too big for her anyways. Victoria 4's just right, I think. But I sure thank you for trying. Have you tried your Hexagon Star ship in Carrara yet?
    Have you had any fun with Genesis in Carrara yet?

    um, no. They weren't here actually.

    Not yet, I have to finish texturing it properly. Found a texture for ship metal that I want to try on it. It's not exactly like the one everybody else is using. And I'm resisting the urge to paint it purple. It might have a hint of purple.

    Genesis is staying in D/S. Sometimes I dial up a figure and export out an .obj and import that into Bryce for a scene.
    I'm hoping to use Carrara for other projects. I do like the quick scenes.

    I'll undoubtedly have some more questions next week! And hopefully a few renders. Thank you all for the help.

  • Jay_NOLAJay_NOLA Posts: 1,145
    edited December 1969

    Forgot to mention some things were moved and might look a little different in C8 so make a note of this stuff depending on what tutorial you are doing.

    You don't have a UV Map Tab like it shows in those tutorials. You have to do this in the Vertex Modeler instead:

    At the right top in Edit Mode select UV Editing Mode. You'll see under Model, Display, Operations, and Unfold Tabs the same things that are in other tabs in those tutorials.. Everything is in those tabs you'll find, so don't panic if you can't find something that you see in the tutorial right away, just search those tabs for it.

    Also, you may need to change your Display Mode to Textured so it looks like right. In the leaf tutorial after you get to the part about ajusting the scale. You can in the Operations Tab click Fit UV and it will do this automatically.

    Have to look at the other tutorials, to see if anything else needs to be added.

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited December 1969


    um, no. They weren't here actually.

    Not yet, I have to finish texturing it properly. Found a texture for ship metal that I want to try on it. It's not exactly like the one everybody else is using. And I'm resisting the urge to paint it purple. It might have a hint of purple.

    Genesis is staying in D/S. Sometimes I dial up a figure and export out an .obj and import that into Bryce for a scene.
    I'm hoping to use Carrara for other projects. I do like the quick scenes.

    I'll undoubtedly have some more questions next week! And hopefully a few renders. Thank you all for the help.

    Hmmm... I probably never saw them then. I have combed this store from the V1's to the M5's and I've been doing so for a few years. In the older Daz Store, I could set it to show oldest first. I went through every single page! lol I must say... I like what I've come up with.

    FYI... You don't even need texture maps in Carrara. Sorry. You probably already knew that... Purple is a great color. I like the purple you had on it before. Or now? Sorry. Overslept. I better go have some cofffee...

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited April 2013

    Thanks for the updates.

    It's going to be a few days yet before I can try the tutorials. I have noticed that Carrara seems to use a lot of shaders ...

    Think my first Dodo question is going to be; Can't one load more than one anything in the program? Seems everything I click on starts a completely new file! Was rather hoping to have them in the same picture.

    I did find the sampler folder and renamed it.

    Animation ... okay ... in D/S one bakes it to the timeline, renders out either a series of images or an .avi.
    In Carrara one does ?

    edit: learning how to spell :-S

    Post edited by patience55 on
  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited April 2013

    Absolutely! Simply drag items from the browser either into the scene window itself, or, I always drag them to the Instances tab onto the word "Scene" in the tab on the right of your working window. This plunks them at zero (0x, 0y, 0z) coordinates in the scene - unless they were saved to plop somewhere else.

    Now, the biggest shader issue you'll have is the plastic look. For an entirely quick and non-complicated fix, follow this (just to get a quick start).
    First, once you get your things into Carrara, go Edit > Remove Masters > Consolidate Duplicate shaders.
    This will make it so that you have less shaders to work with - because all shaders that are exactly the same will become one - and remove all the extra copies.
    For now... just trust me on this.

    Now go into the shaders that have a plastic look when you render them... often this will be skin, but also some clothing too... and sometimes other things.
    The quick fix is to set the highlight color to black. That's it. There's plenty more power that you have in tweaking shaders to look any way you want your materials to resemble. This is one of my favorite aspects of Carrara... the shaders are quite powerful... and there are plenty of ways to make them look good, while you're still learning how they work!

    So, to turn a color block to black is the easiest thing. There's a little triangle thingy on the lower right corner of the color block. just click it and your color will go to 0... which is black.

    I'm ending this reply with just that. A simple fix. When you want to know more... let me know what you need.

    Post edited by Dartanbeck on
  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited April 2013

    Edit > Remove Masters > Consolidate Duplicate shaders
    This is a scene savor as it drastically reduces your running memory as you work. I highlighted it because it's important. In that same command, there's also:
    Edit > Remove Masters > Remove Unused Objects
    and
    Edit > Remove Masters > Remove Unused Shaders
    Without using these, anything you delete remains within the memory of your system and will bog down your OpenGL

    So... quick recap:

    Drag content from the browser into the Instances Tray (The area under the word: "Scene" on the right of the working window)

    Edit > Remove Masters > Consolidate Duplicate Shaders

    To access all of the shaders used on a single figure:
    Open the Hierarchy (little arrow that expands to reveal all of the body parts - if it's a human/creature/being)
    Select the word "Model" directly under the figure's name
    Click on the paint brush icon at the far upper right corner of the screen.
    This will take you into the texture room.

    All of the shaders used for this figure will be in a list on the right side of the screen. One shader will always be open, called "Default". Just ignore that one. I always just close it, but it opens again whenever you exit and reenter the texture room. One more tip, if you double click the top of an individual shader window, it will expand to fill the work area, rather than being a little box. I go back and forth. Sometimes I prefer them full screen like that, because none of the slider numbers are hidden from the box being small. Then I never have to take the time to resize the little box when I want to lower the brightness value of a texture map. Other times, I like to have several shaders open and laid out within the work area. So it's nice that it's so easy to switch it.

    If you performed: Edit > Remove Masters > Consolidate Duplicate Shaders, you will now notice that the same shader occupies several "Shader Domains" (also called material zones) of the figure. Daz3d people have three major skin Shaders and several others. The three major one's that cover the figure from head to toe are: Torso, Face, and Limbs.
    Before moving on, I will often rename those three major shaders, otherwise all of the domains that use "Torso" will likely say "Nipple". LOL
    Go through those main three (you'll know them by the domain name.) and turn their Highlight channels to black. If there is a slider there instead of a color, set it to zero. This is the same as black.

    There is much more you can do to get your figures to look really, REALLY good! Please remember the "Head" = "Torso", not Face! Example: There's a shader domain on V4 called Head, and another called Face. The map for the Head domain is on the same map as the one used on the hip, which is the main Torso map. If you select a new map because it either adds or removes hair to the top of the head, that will be a combination of two, new shaders. One for the head, and one for the Face. I'm probably going too far.

    Lips, eye socket, finger and toenails,etc., will use variants of the main shaders. Lips use the Face domain. If your preforming of Edit > Remove Masters > Consolidate Duplicate Shaders made it so that the lips are using the same shader as the face, you may change it simple enough either by editing the values of the Highlights, color, and shininess, etc, or by selecting, and double clicking on a make up option MAT pose for poser.


    Take this home with you:
    One of the great resources that helped me get my V4 based hero looking the best she's ever looked, is Indigone's V4 Skin Shader Kit and Lights. Beyond that, however, her accompanying tutorial has really taught me a ton about shaders. This kit contains shaders for all of V4's various parts in separate shader files. The tutorial explains which goes where, but their descriptive names say it all. This set may be for V4, but it works for Genesis, M4, V3... any 3d figure, really. It makes use of Sub-Surface Scattering, Highlights and shininess, and just really walks you through the whole process. The lights set that comes with it was developed by her over a long period of optimizing shadows - and really makes your figure look good! If this sort of thing interests you, she also has an eyes shader package available: Endless Eye Kit for V4 Like the Skin Shader and lights kit, This set may be for V4, but it works for Genesis, M4, V3... any 3d figure, really.. Highly recommended.

    Post edited by Dartanbeck on
  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited April 2013

    Although it's still incomplete, I often spend hours waiting for renders to finish, writing helpful advice in the Carrara Information Manual to help my fellow Carraraists any way I can for any topic that might come up. Obviously, nobody is a Master of All things Carrara, and I certainly never pretend to be that... I just want to help in any way that I can. So the Carrara Information Manual has a lot of links to forum conversations that have helped others since this new forum went live.

    For the topic discussed above, my Working with Content article can be useful. Forum Help Links is just that - an index of topics that have already been discussed by our fellow community members. Some have been solved, others are ongoing... all of them may be revived for further discussion, simply by replying to one - which will launch it back to the top of conversation within the forums. I try to index the topics so that they are easier to find - and it's certainly easier to find stuff in there that to go flipping through the forum pages... it gets pretty deep! lol

    Cripeman’s Carrara Video Tutorials Index was my original passion for starting the whole thing. He's so dedicated to showing us, on his computer, what it looks like to perform many functions in Carrara. His tips are really good things to know, and he is highly entertaining as he teaches. I really enjoy his philosophy that Everything you need in you CG piece can be done in Carrara. I believe that too.

    Well I certainly don't want to annoy you by posting the entire table of contents into your thread. Just wanted to let you know that there's a wealth of help waiting for you in that stickied thread - as it leads everywhere I discover to learn more about anything Carrara. It even has a link to the elusive beta manual for Carrara 8. Not for Carrara beta, it's the beta of the manual! lol

    Post edited by Dartanbeck on
  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited April 2013

    Awesome, have copied page to read leisurely ... shaders and manuals :-) Kool.

    DoDo will learn to spell ... DoDo will learn to drag and drop ;-) Thanks.

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    Post edited by patience55 on
  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited December 1969

    Nice render!
    Oh... and you're most certainly welcome. Hope I was of some help :coolhmm:

  • patience55patience55 Posts: 7,006
    edited December 1969

    ... tippy toe in ... that's not a render, think it's from an image of a museum specimen.

    I took a look at the Dodos for sale here ... and gee, somebody's marketing images they've made using the toon Dodo!

  • DartanbeckDartanbeck Posts: 21,326
    edited December 1969

    Where are they? Rosie and I can handle this!

    StayBack.jpg
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