Licensing: Now it's confusing and I feel disenfranchised. Help me understand!
Subtropic Pixel
Posts: 2,388
I'm stuck here, feeling bad, and could really use some help.
The various licenses for 3D, games, interactive, PA this or that, once on a sunday and twice during a blue moon; they're all too confusing and feel very restrictive and expensive. I just saw the notice on Monique 8's "interaction license". What's that? Oh, don't link me to the page; I read it and still didn't get it. Besides, it sounds like there's a cost of $50 just for her. Is it another $50 for another model? None of this stuff seems to be explained very well and it seems so expensive as to not be worth it for anybody who might want to try to monetize this work with 3D printing or any of the other things outside of book covers, comic books, or political cartoons.
Further confusing the matter is all the different PA rules and restrictions.
This is the main reason I haven't done any shopping in the store for the last 18 months. My break started right around the time we got the first round of "3D printer restrictions". And today, there's the whole body of Genesis 8 work out there, with tons of exciting stuff, but everytime I go into the store, all I can think of is how I have zero idea what I'm allowed to do, how much I have to pay, when, how often I have to pay it, and to whom.
I'm feeling like buying something will just leave me open to future nickel-and-diming, so I just leave the store without going through checkout. I've had the same 3 things in my cart for months and I haven't bought ANYTHING, no matter how good it is or how cheap it "seems". Because now there are pitfalls from restrictions and unknown future costs.
Before anybody launches into the talking points about how the 3D assets are some special added intellectual property "thing" that deserves more money, or why I have to pay more or less depending on when/where the rendering is done, I just don't care about all that. What I really need is a clear explanation on how an end-user artist (who is not part of a big commercial art studio) can effectively survive with this pricing model.
I'll pay PAs for their work. But right now, I see no financial benefit to paying ANYTHING for products where I don't have a free and clear license for any and all use going froward. No, instead I have to fuss around with different license fees to different people, not knowing just how much this will all cost, and STILL having lots of limitations, or possibly getting into legal trouble just because this stuff is too complicated to keep track of.
I have to be honest here. That makes me feel disenfranchised and left out in the cold.
Does anybody else feel like I do?
And better yet, can somebody explain to me how I'm wrong? That I'm not really being squeezed for more money, and it really IS worth it (financially speaking) after all? How could somebody really make money with this new fee charging model. With examples and numbers, please. You may need to explain it to me like I'm a 5 year old, because I'm just not seeing it right now, and I have enough degrees to open a thermometer factory.
Finally, is there a "license pricing map" available someplace? I'm thinking something along the lines of a spreadsheet or chart showing what costs what; whether a mortgage or firstborn is needed, and how often payments would be due? A tool such as this might at least help one with the "buy vs. model it myself" cost/benefit decision and maybe avoid the store items that could be prohibitively expensive, long term.
Thanks.
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Comments
Well, Maybe the best way to get all the answers is if you submit a ticket with customer support....
as for the licenses, nothing much has changed since 18 months ago, except that there's no longer a cover-all-items of a vendor license for use of the mesh in games, etc, plus that they are planning on a "sell your 3D print" type of license.
if you already own for example an Indie license, it remains valid.
The licensing types:
Advantage of this broken up license structure is that you can buy the usage that you need, instead of having to pay a much higher price for everyone with all licenses included.
Disadvantage is that you will have to buy separat licenses in addition to the standard one if you want to use the item in all of the above situations.
That said, I am not willing to shell out 150$ Or 200$ for a dress just so that the product covers use in games as welll as commecrial 3D print on top of the 2D printing, whicch is what you are asking For. I rather have the option to chose my licensing Model.
It all depends on your use or uses. if you are doing nothing but renders and animations, nothing has changed including the pricing.
An interactive license is not a squeeze for additional money. An interactive license was never included in any standard 2D product purchases.
I do not work or benefit from Daz in any way other than you do, which I am assuming is buying 2D art (but I did, a while back, pay a few hundred extra dollars and buy a license for all Daz Original art to use in 3D format).
When you buy Daz products, each purchase comes with a standard license to make and print 2d art items. The products can be printed on a normal printer and used for whatever your heart desires or simply uploaded to the web as a "see what I did" or Instagram, or to a storefront "Hey I made this piece of 2d art wanna buy it" or as a header or branding art for dispaly on your website.
I have only been a member for 12 months, but about six months ago I bought a gamers license for Daz Originals. Buying that license promised me I could use Daz Originals in a project where people interacted with it. Interactive art typically is a video game or virtual reality experiences where a player's choices manipulates or changes the user experience and changes or influences how the characters or props perform. A 2D video simply entertains you (or not) and you can click play, pause or stop but not change or influence how characters or props perform or act. In 2D art nothing changes the end result.
So 2D art is . . . sigh . . . dead. If 2D art could talk it might say, look at me, ha ha ha, I am what I am. No matter what you do, I stay the same, lucky me . . . poor you . . . I am what I am.
3D art is alive and if 3D art could talk it might say, yikes! you get to manipulate and interact with me and what if you make a lousy choice that destroys me or changes my outcome, I'm scared shitless because you are in charge and you can change who I am or what I do. Your interaction can change anything and everything.
In our world, photographers share images, some to look at and not touch, some to buy and keep to yourself, hang on your wall and never share, not even for free, and other sell theoir wares for personal use. You get to put the image on cards and send them to friends as long as you give then away for free to friends and foe. But if you want to use the image on a truck to advertise your business, hoping to gain profit, you need a special license.
Daz allows for profit use providing it's limited to 2D usage.
If you want to make a game like angry birds where a user play choices change the end results, Daz offers an additional license per product to allow that interactive usage, via an interactive license.
I suspect the PA's decide what their art is worth. I suspect they decide if or not they want to license it above and beyond the 2d usage and I also suspect they put a price tag on what they feel their art is worth in an interactive format as a 3D license. Some PA's may not want to offer an interactive license at all or may decide to stop offering them at a future date to new users, just as the gaming license I bought is no longer offered by Daz.
My understanding is Daz is offering an opportunity to buy an additional 3D license at a flat fee to use one product in one 3D project at a per product cost.
I suspect the only way you will get an excel spreadsheet is if you hunt down what you need, and make one yourself. Then you could conclude what price (be it a new born or a second mortgage) it would take to obtain the products you require for your master plan of a 3D dream. If you don't plan to create a game or interactive 3D experience you would be wasting your time creating a spreadsheet.
My understanding is, under this new 3D license offering, if you pay extra dollars for 3D usage, it is limited to the product offered and limited to use in one project. It is simply an offer for additional usage terms above and beyond 3D 2D usage on a per product - per project basis.
Murky waters do clear if we let them settle.
Edited 3D to 2D
It gets more confusing with Merchant Resources that have an interactive license. From what I understand, you can use a merchant resource in a game without any extra license if the item is changed or baked in so that it can't be extracted though I check with the PA first and in some case you cannot use a merchant resource in a game. Some merchant resources are explicitly made for games and had no extra license prior to the new interactive licenses. I always thought the distinction of merchant resources to be very strange. It leads to a situation where in one product where I inquired to DAZ and the PA if it were usable in a game. The answer on this particual product was no. Yet, I was allowed to create a new character with that merchant resource, sell it, and then I could use the character. I inquired about this loophole and got silence. Why can I not just bypass the selling part and just have a unique character in a game?
Because as a MR is is licensed for a specific use, i.e. the creation of a commercial character, but I do see your point so Daz should probably amend the use of a product using an MR to no use in a game to close that loophole. The sad fact is, there are a few ways to extract mesh and textures from any game and many video apps made with 3D resources, so it gets harder and harder to protect your IP these days.
@ArtAngel,
the EULA says, "Accordingly, User may access, use, copy, and modify the Content to create one or more derived or additional three-dimensional works" so that means you can use it in as many projects as you like for that license fee you pay. They have just one interactive license condition for all content sold in DAZ store, instead of each PA making their own.
Okay, so we have different interpretations. This is part of my problem. It's becoming complex, making "honest mistakes" not only possible, but more likely.
So there's Standard, Interactive, and 3D licenses? I can handle three. If it's only three, that is. Which it doesn't seem to be the case, especially if my interpretation is true and the 3D license is different between DAZ Originals and PA works, and some are for all projects while others are for only one single project.
I guess I'm still confused.
Interactive license = Commercial and Indie game licenses. Basically DAZ tried to balance the needs of the many with the needs of the few, as it were. With the addition of the GamePrint plug-in for 3D printing, they needed a change to the EULA to allow for people to have 3D replicas made of a specific figure, so that's what the 3D print part covers.
If you create 2D art like renders, prints, illustrations. Pay the lowest fee. If you make games pay the interactive fee. If you want to make 3D models pay that fee. If you pay the 2D fee, and decide later to create games or 3D figurines/figures -pay the extra fee.
To clairify - NO there are NOT 3 types of licenses sold to DAZ store customers. There are 2.
- The basic (standard) license is for two dimensional rendering of images or aimations. You can do (almost) what ever you want with that render. The "almost" refers to a obscure potential use in 2D rendering that is not permitted: You can't cheat the store and render the product components for re-distribution. Like layng out the UV & textures in 2D texture map in original resolution and share it so the product could concievebly be recreated. Personal Use 3d printing falls into this category of license because you are NOT DISTRIBUTING or SELLING the product taking away market share from the developer.
- The Interactive License is used for sharing, distributing or publishing product representations what is called 3D games (think Virtual Scene or Game like ) - but its not so easy to define as "3D Game License" because that is not broad enough DAZ adapted the Indy/Commercial Game License concept into the broader INTERACTIVE LICENSE to include simulations, scenes, virtual story books and other types of realtime rendered 3d published works.
Artists who offer exclusive and/or 3D publishing rights dereciate thier product R&D investment at a greater rate. Products for artists can be sold at DAZ for 2.99 because Artists do not have to have the full cost of development recovered in the offering, This is why its an important aspect for them to consider terms for product use and exclusivity when they enter marketplaces.
Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_video_game & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computer_graphics and ;
Thank you all for your input, but we haven't addressed some key items:
I think we all know that it's hard to make money in art these days; and I'm sure our PAs would be the first to agree. I'm just trying to figure out if all these licensing costs are going to reduce or prevent financial success for the end-user. Right now it doesn't look promising to me, but I'm willing to re-evaluate if somebody else can make a good case.
Interactive licenses with different costs makes perfect sense, since items for Genesis or Genesis 2 should not cost the same to license as some for Genesis 3 or Genesis 8. Nor should texture addons cost the same to license as the model they are for.
I get you, but this makes it more difficult to track and comply.
License prices are tiered based on list price, according to my unofficial observation in looking at various priced items in the store.
under $16 = $10
$16 – $20 = $35
over $20 = $50
Well, I'm no lawyer, so my comparision is based on my layman undertanding of things (mods: I hope this is allowed).
For this example, I will use base prices without any sales-discounts.
This is a 2014 male from Turbosquid, Product ID 817663: https://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/realistic-male-body---max/817663
His polygone count comes close to what you have in Genesis, he comes with underwear, texture double the size of what you have in Genesis. He also has no gens, like Genesis.
The license type is the standard "Royalty free after Purchase" (see details here: https://blog.turbosquid.com/royalty-free-license/?p=7952), which allows you to do the following:
The price for that package is $599.
Let's check the contender.
DAZ 3D Standard license allows you unlimited use in
DAZ 3D Interactive License allows you unlimted use in
DAZ 3D Commercial Print license for 3D figures is in the NOT out yet, so I do not know anything about the price, but it will allow you
For comparision let's take Genesis 7. You'll need it with Michael 7 for a compartible skin, maybe the HD-pack.
Adding up the costs:
With the licenses currently existing for sale right now, you'd pay $354.85 for a package that already allows you the same, if note more (in regard to personal use 3D prints) as the professional Turbosquid store license. If you'd add in a hypothetical price of the 3D licences, you'd come out at $754.85, but you would have 20 actual sellable 3D prints for that price....
Bravo, Bee. Thank you for taking the time. I do understand that there are blanks that would need to be filled in, but this gives me a good starting point for understanding it and making a decision on whether or not to continue with DAZ. Yeah, it really is that much of an existential question, of sorts. If it's too expensive, then outside (or self-modelled) alternatives might actually be required, just to stay in business.
When all of the license costs are finally known, then at some point this can be spreadsheeted or built into an app.
Now my next topic would be that this licensing issue is becoming complicated enough that the end-users (me, for example) could really benefit from a tool to manage their purchases and track their license "inventory usage" via some form of accounting. This is even more critical, since (as it appears will happen), the different models and characters will all have their own licenses; each with its own unique cost, terms, and "available inventory" of uses.
Also, as to the 3D licenses, I would want to know if there could be a way to account for molds and castings. For example, I'd 3D print one, trim, sand, fill, and file it so that it could be the "gold copy"; from which I would make a mold. And from that mold, might make castings of the items to be put up for sale. Would molds and castings be licensed differently than they would if directly 3D printing each copy?
I suppose I'm sort of looking for a way to budget things in the same way that small businesses would budget for things like flour, sugar, cardboard boxes, packing tape, and shipping.
However it develops, we end users will need to be able to accurately figure out how much all the various license costs will be on a per unit basis, because this is part of the cost of manufacturing a product.
Thanks again!
To manage Your purchases and track your license, this would already be in you Accound -Libraries and -Licenses.
As for the mold casting, that would still be covered under the later-to-be 3D Print License as it would still be a dirivitive of the original model. So, a cast print would still be limited under your purchased commercial license.
Let me say as a professional artist, we are not here to nickle and dime everyone, we're just trying to pay the bills and have a little left over to order a pizza once in awhile. It's very dis-heartening to see your work in a major motion picture and thinking, "wow, I made a whopping $4.98" and absolutely no credit to further the insult. Or, fighting a game producer for infringements and in the end, losing thousands of dollars in legal fees.
Unfortunately, I've seen one too many great artist here leave the business just because of this. It's my passion to do this but some days I sorta feel conscripted and I 'must' do it. Pizza money is nice :D
...you're disappointed when your customers make it big?
Ah, but not getting credit and getting paid peanuts as an employee relative to what the business is making on the product(s) one designs, assembles, tests and so on is standard for most every employee, not just 3D modelers. Even those that are imagined to make big money, such as famous actors, screenwriters, book authors and so on, complain about how little money they make compared to what the business(es) that bankrolled the work make on the popular entertainment property such as Spiderman or Star Trek movies and so on. They typical get very poor pay until and if they become very well known and popular. Also figure what do the 3D modelers that work for Pixar and Disney and the big studios make? And then what do those make doing the same work for an unknown animation studio? And then what is made for profit by some lone indie or hobbyist? And how many CG films have you seen within the past 3 months that wasn't by Disney or Pixar or a big studio?
I'm afraid I have to disagree. MR is not for the creation of a commercial character at all. It's for the use in a new product. There are some MR's that can't be used for characters like ground textures. Some state they are specifically for use in games. These used to be MR only without the possibility of getting a game license, but were made specifically for games. Closing that loophole would not work. I think they should open it up instead. MR's should be usable in games without a separate license. Or at least there should be an option for the PA to allow in-game usage without a separate license. Why? Because some items have no use as a standalone product. So by adding a license, it's basically a double purchase for a single use and I have to imagine this would drive down sales. Also, this loophole can't be closed. No matter what DAZ says, you can still sell a new product using that MR and then you can use it in a game since you own the product. That's the loophole. Just saying you can't use it in a game makes no sense when any PA can create products using MR and put an interactive license on it.
Can you comment on other processes to make a 3d representation other than 3d printing ... Does the licensing permit 3D printing ONLY and does not permit other forms of 3d reproduction?
If I interpret literally that a 3D Print is the result of a 3D printer, then it would seem that other methods of 3d reproduction cannot be licensed?
I get that the mold casting would be considerered a derivitive, but there needs to be a master to produce a mold from, so is 3D printing the only option for producing the master?
Which from what I have seen doesn't apply in the real world for DAZ items. Ripping the mesh and textures from a game doesn't give one the item. Trying to somewhat fix the ripped possible half broken mesh with textures, no working shaders, no compatibility and no rigging is a lot work and not attractive when the complete and fully working+rigged item is available for anyone to buy from the store. From what I see ripping assets and putting in the work required to get them somewhat working again is only done for items who can't be bought in the first place. Just go to one of the sites who offer a lot of ripped models from games and try to find a single DAZ model that was ripped from a game there. You won't.
I think if you really want to make the most profit, you'd eventually have to create everything yourself, given that only then you have full control over design and use.
For example, I am doing a web comic. I am using models from the store for characters, clothes, hair and sets. Of course, I made all sorts of changes kitbashing characters and morphing, etc, but it really wasn't until a Webinar (a thousand thanks to Digital Arts for providing them!) that I realized that I needed to come up with more "own" stuff inregards to symbols, etc. Before that, I just used what was on the clothing, but I went and created my own patterns after that.
Of course, a key question is time, and talent/skill. I'm not very good at these things, i.e. modelling. I have just a very limited time frame every day where I can follow my hobbies, and between writing the novel for the web comic, and doing the renders, and preparing characters, sets, etc., at the moment there's very little of that to put into creating my own stuff. And let's be honest, it would be years before I'd get anywhere near the quality that the majority of the items in the store have, not to mention the "little helpers" like light sets, poses, scripts, etc.
So, for me, I'm happy with the Standard license at the moment. I've even ordered a Christmas present for myself in shape of 3D figurines from Gameprint, which is all covered under the standard licence. Maybe I'll print them on a mug, or make t-shirts or mouse pads if there's ever the need for merchandize.
I'm glad that DAZ 3D now finally made the step from "no 3D printing allowed at all" from 3 years ago, to "personal use only" in between, and now the announcement of the commercial 3D print license.
I don't know... if DAZ3D was smart in this, they'd make extra licenses for the DAZOriginal Genesis (1,2,3.,8...) Base figures, that cover a larger number of uses.
Because, if you have three figures based on, for example, Genesis 3, (like Michael 7, Lucien 7, Darien 7) you'd need to have to re-buy the 3D Print license for Genesis 3 times, for each of your figures, on top of the M7/D7/L7 license price for the print. This is where the 3D print license is trickier than the Interactive license, which is pretty straight forward in "buy me once, use me forever".
But that's just me thinking out loud.
In the end, it all really depends on what you want to do with the content, what kind of projects you have in mind. That's something only you know.
The license says "The creation of three-dimensional physical representations (3D-print, molded copy, CNC-routed copy, and the like)" so no, it isn't just 3D printing per se.
To try to answer this point:
Previously you had to buy an expensive license per vendor. So for making a game, if you wanted to use a set from Stonemason, that was a $500 license for all his stuff, then there was a monster from RawArt, another $500 for aall his stuff and finally the genesis for your main character, another $500
So for the 3 items you wanted to use, you would have to pay $1500. And you would only be able to make the 1 game.
Whith the pricing as it is now, the cost to use those 3 item would be $150, but you can only use those 3 items. But you can use those 3 items in as many games as you want.
*edit*
In both cases, this does not include buying the actual figures/models you want to use
Perhaps, but how much is the business, normally, paying out on behalf of the employees over and above what the employees get paid? That's something that most people don't think of, and when you're running your own small business (that what DzFire and other PAs are) all of that overhead that most folks ignore is something they have to deal with.
Thank you all for adding to the conversation. It is very much appreciated.
DZFIRE: In my opinion, the PAs should make more money, not less. But I must admit that I don't know who makes what, or even how much work they do, how hard their jobs are, or how long they've worked to become good at their skillsets.
I definitely recognize that there are artists at every stage of the pipeline here. For example, the DAZ devs; the ones who write the code for the applications, these folks are artists in their own right. The marketing, website, and store teams are awesome. Then there are the in-house artists, who may play around in many different roles. And the PAs, from all around the world, even! And finally, but not least, the customers who literally pay for everything.
My questions are not intended to point a finger of shame at any of these good people. Not at all. I am just thinking of possibly doing 3D products for sale, and I'm just trying to figure out if that would work as a model, given the prices that DAZ (and others) charge for things. I'm just trying to decide if all this would be doable, given my own fixed costs such as keeping, maintaining, and upgrading a modern computer, 3D printer (which I haven't purchased yet), models, textures, accessories, software, and consumables such as filament, ink, and yes, license fees.
If the model allows me to make some money and even get a pizza or two for me from time to time, then I might make a go of it! I don't want to take your pizza away from you, but the fact is that while my day job funds everything I do here now, I may have to make some hard decisions, such as outsourcing some things or insourcing others. For example, maybe obtaining the figures and licenses from DAZ and PAs is doable, but I might have to insource some texturing via my SLR camera or insource the accessories by making those with Blender or (hopefully) the new Hexagon.
This is a math problem. Many of life's decisions turn out to be math problems. Like how much salt to add to a bread recipe, or deciding which pack of paper towels to buy.
I'd be curious to learn what things showed up in movies and the artist only made $4.98 for it. I would not be surprised, however. I feel that Hollywood is very corrupt and I can't bear to watch much in the way of television or movies anymore.
FSMC Designs and AlienRenders:
I am still not certain what a Merchant Resource (MR) allows and doesn't allow. And I even asked a question some years ago.
BeeMKay:
One small clarification. I never said anything about making "the most" profit. That would come later. I agree with your point about making things myself (I call that "insourcing"). I'm not thinking in an "all or nothing" way, however. I'm just thinking about how best to leverage the things I'm good at (or efficient at), and paying for the rest.
We do this in our everyday lives already. For example, I know how to work on cars; I just hate it. So I pay somebody else for that service, even though I could do that cheaper in most cases. Some of my neighbors have a lawn service, but I love working on my own landscape, so I do that myself.
I too am glad DAZ is addressing this and like you, I think it's a good thing that DAZ isn't stuck in the "no 3D printing allowed at all" way of thinking from a few years ago. But then, if they didn't come forward with options, there could have been a competitor in the wings.
Richard Hasseltine:
Thank you, I did see that clause in the license text. I had just forgotten about it.
Daywalker Designs:
Yep, precisely what is going through my mind now; figuring out fixed costs and the cost of consumables. As long as I have my day job, I don't have to worry about the cost of healthcare, insurance, and my retirement contributions. Doing this full time would raise my cost exponentially, so I'm not sure I could ever do that.
Thank you all; great conversation.