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I've noticed in some of the tech forums that there are a lot of people who know that "heat is bad" for their computer components, and too much heat can damage them. So they automatically assume that "if heat is bad, then cooler must be better". But I think a lot of them are missing the fact that engineers design stuff to run continuously without damage for a certain length of time. And even if it gets too hot because you're operating outside the range they designed it for (eg, overclocking, blocked vents, too much load, etc.), there's usually some protective devices (throttling, voltage/current limiters, etc.) that keep stuff from being damaged. That's why they have warranties and guarantees, because the engineers are pretty confident their designs will handle it.
Just think of your refrigerator at home. It runs on and off, continuously, 24/7, for many years. Do you need to add water cooling so it lasts longer? Nope, because it's designed to do that. Same with computer components. Now of course there are the cheap pieces of junk that don't guarantee anything, and you get what you pay for. But generally, if you buy a quality device from a known and highly rated vendor, and operate within the range they designed it for it will operate fine for years. And of course, you might get a lemon with a bad component, but in my experience that's pretty (very) rare.
Personally, if it lasts 3-5 years I'm happy, because especially with computers I assume I'll replace it in that time anyway. So if the power supply is designed for a 10 year life span, and I'm pushing it a bit and it only lasts for 8 years, I'm happy. But the same as with CPU's and other components, a lot of people aren't aware of exactly what the component is designed for, nor are they familiar with exactly what their computer requires. And in the many decades I've owned many computers, I can only think of one time that I thought the power supply had failed. But it turned out to be the hard drive.
So yeah, I think it's prudent to figure exactly what power your system will need (using an online calculator, and maybe spend a few bucks on a power meter to get ACTUAL numbers), and then allow a little margin by going up to the next wattage size (they usually come in 50 watt increments) to allow for future needs. But honestly I think the belief that somehow if you operate your stuff at way below the rated values it will somehow make you equipment last much longer is a bit of a myth. And even if it did, you'll probably replace your system long before then. I find it kind of funny in the online forums that many guys will spend boatloads of money on components and monster power supplies, but won't spend $20 on a simple power meter to find out the actual numbers.
I can't say what my messured usage for the GPU's I am using for poweris, I never tested it . But the only reason I have over kill on my UPS which APC 2500 watts continuous feed. Is that I live in a very rural area if we loose the power when i'm in the middle of rendering an animated scene. a lot of time and work could be lost. the APC 2500 watts gives me alittle over hour to keep renderings with our set up to see if the power gets restored by then without having to shut down.. with the 1200 watt APC UPS we had it only gave us 10 minutes which was barely enough time to save the work and shut down before the back up battery died. running few gpu's and 2 monitors and everything else eats up power pretty quick so we experienced that larger UPS power supply the only way to go and a must have if your doing long renders with risk of tons of work to be lost if you had a power failure.
Yeah, when it comes to UNINTERRUPTIBLE power supplies like the APC units, that's a whole different story. The goal there is to have enough battery in the UPS to keep your unit going until you can either start up the emergency generator or the utility comes back. So in that case bigger probably is better. But the size of the computer power supply is somewhat irrelevant to that. You just size the power supply so it can serve the needs of the computer components.
Of course, installing, say, a 1200 watt power supply doesn't mean your computer will use 1200 watts....it depends on the power usage of all the computer components added together. So if it only needs 650 watts, you can install a 2,500 watt power supply but you'll only use 650 watts from the outlet.
yes you are right. I run a 1000 watt PS my even though my pc is only using about 650 watts of it .. but its big enough that if I had to expand or upgrade componets that it would be one less thing to worry about. I tell you the UPS has saved my butt more than a few times. anyone doing 3d really should have a UPS it will really save you from turning the air blue when the power flickers...lol
alot of good info..thanks .... this box I have, Dell Inspiron 3847, doesn't have much room . I read somewhere the power supply is one of those compact ones and there isn't enough room for a decent one. Also, I need to research the connectors ... there is some wonky stuff going on there as well. It maxes out at 16gig ram, which is a bummer in itself . i think I could swing a 1070 8 gig video card and a 500-600 watt power supply, which should be more than sufficient, considering I have a 230W unit in there now. well..nvidia states 500 watt minimum, so a 600 would be good.
I now see that my MB does not support PCIe 3.0 ... it is 2.0 . the ram is damn slow.
As I do more research, overall this system is really not worth upgrading.
Are you sure the RAM speed will make much of a difference in real life?
One advantage of my render machine being a laptop... I just have to worry about how long the battery will last when power goes out.
not sure, but its 1600 Mhz .. which is real slow compared to todays ram ..but what is that in reality? zing instead of super zing ... nano seconds or less probably ...
but the pcie slot is the real killer for the video cards today..1070 requies pcie 3.0 which my MB does not have. even the 1050Ti requires 3.0.
pretty much a done deal as far as upgrading. its a no go.
Yeah, I'd tend to agree. And like I say, if it's a Dell you can be guaranteed you'll run into some custom stuff that makes upgrading just that much more difficult. But if it was me I tend to skimp on the CPU with a new system, and push as much $$ as I could into a GPU. Unless you need a powerful CPU for something.
yeah I don't have my laptop plugged into my UPS either for that reason. just my render server machine .Its really a great gaming system and I just have to upgrade the companet not the system . this is my what my set up looks like minus the mess on the desk..lol
Not too bad; my desk looks loads worse, which is why I'm currently using the kitchen table while I revamp my setup.
There's already some very good information in this thread, but I thought I'd toss my hat into the mix as both someone that's been building PCs for 25+ years, and someone that spent almost a decade in the computer repair business. Please note that these are my personal reasonings, I'm not trying to say anyone that does it differently is wrong. That's one of the beauties of building your own PC, YOU get to make the decisions in what goes into your rig. With a prebuilt, you have very little say in that.
1) Using a prebuilt retail machine (HP, Dell, Compaq, etc) as the primary base of a new build: Don't bother using more than a few smaller parts. These types of machines are always built using the cheapest possible parts, using almost exclusively proprietary parts that are designed not to be compatible with off-the-shelf primary components (cases, motherboards, Power supplies, etc). Some components can be easily reused, like CPUS, Memory, and Hard drives. But the cases, motherboards, and power supplies are never worth bothering to keep, they are designed to only be used in that particular configuration. The main issues with trying to re-use motherboards is they will not have the connections you will want for the new system. Off the shelf motherboards will have many more USB headers, Sata connectors (you wouldn't believe how many prebuilt machines I've seen that won't even have one extra Sata connector for adding another HDD), extra PCIE slots, fast PCIE slots, extra RAM slots, etc. You can sometimes get by with using a motherboard from a prebuilt temporarily while you save up for a better one, but you're better off doing motherboard/cpu/case all at the same time.
2) Power supplies: You absolutely want a bigger pwr supply than the bare minimum your machine requires. But you also do NOT need to go massively overboard on one either. If your system only needs 450w, a 650w power supply should be fine. You don't want your machine to keep the supply at 100% all the time, but there's no reason to have one that only runs at 20% under full load either. But, of all of the components in your rig, the power supply is the one that is absolutely the most important NOT to skimp on in regards to quality. Sure, you can get a 650w power supply for $20 right now. But 6 months down the line when that power supply blows one day out of warranty and takes out your motherboard, GPU, and RAM, that $20 suddenly becomes a hell of a lot more expensive.
3) Motherboard/CPU: These are the areas that are the most important for a build, but give you the most flexibility in what to choose. I'm not going to go into the Intel/AMD debate as that's mostly personal preference at this point, and I haven't kept up with the most recent developments in the field, and personally I don't think there is enough difference in the two brands anymore to make a huge difference to the average user. Instead I'm going to go into what I think should be considered when making a decision.
a) CPU - Consider your intended use of the machine (Rendering, gaming, video editing, number crunching, etc) as well as how long you want this rig to last without having to upgrade it. The better your processor, the more you can do at the same time, as well as the longer your machine will be able to handle new programs before becoming obsolete. I have an i7-4790k in my machine right now, which is almost 4 years old. And to this day the only thing I can throw at it that it even notices is a massive render scene that is too big for my 1070 and dumps down to CPU processing. And I don't think there is a CPU on the market today that could handle that without a noticeable hit. And even then, my computer is still useable, just slow. And even with it being an almost 4 year old processor, I expect to still get 3 or 4 years out of it before I need to upgrade it. As of right now, there are 5 full physical socket generations that have come after mine, I expect there to be at least that many more that I'll be able to skip before I upgrade again. The down side is that when I do upgrade, I'll have to do CPU/Motherboard/Memory all at the same time because of how far the technology will have changed. If had had gone with an i3 or i5 I would have had to upgrade at least once, possibly twice by now to keep my machine able to handle everything I throw at it on a daily basis. For most normal users, an i5 is the most they need to worry about, but it is still possible to overload one if you toss enough at it. I personally wouldn't recomend anyone use an i3 for anything but a basic web browsing machine though.
b) Motherboard - This is an area where you can spend days just going over different models trying to find what you want. The main thing you want to look at though is what connections it has: Does it have enough USB headers to handle all of your devices, does it have the right kind of USB headers, does it have enough x16 PCIE slots for your video cards, do all of the slots run at x16, or does the second one dump down to x4 as soon as slot1 is filled, does it have dual-channel memory(still the golden standard), Tri-channel memory (not very common anymore thankfully), or even quad-channel memory (only really relevent with the newest high end/high core count processors), does it have enough SATA ports for you (Most have 8 these days, which should be sufficient for pretty much anyone), is it by a reliable manufacturer, are the components well made, is it pretty, etc. Motherboard is actually the component I expect to make me have to replace my system first, because of how fast technology changes. Here, like with the CPU, if you want your machine to be a beast as long as possible you're going to wind up spending a bit more to get a more full featured board, but if you're looking for a shorter lifespan you can go cheaper. But be wary of all the gaming buzzwords they like to throw into their marketing, most of them mean absolutely nothing for non-extremem hardcore gamers.
4) Memory: In regards to the basic RAM vs Extreme Oberon Neon Nuclear Overkillah! Uber Gaming RAM debate: There absolutely, undeniably is a difference between them. You can usually even see it if you hook them up to a full fledged testing environment designed to check every tinly frequency and millivolt on the machine. In real world uses, the difference between them is so insignifcant that the average user will never notice the difference. An extreme gamer, or somene running a render farm with 280gb of RAM are about the only ones that will notice a difference worth bothering with. If the price is close, definitely go for the better stick, but don't break the bank trying to get the top end stuff that's flashier. But, you also don't want to skimp out and not get enough RAM. I can't stress enough how important it is to have enough RAM when you are rendering. It will effect how well Studio performs during posing and loading scenes. And if your scene is too big for your GPU and dumps down to CPU, you'll need as much RAM as possible to handle the load. I would say 16gb is the absolute minimum, but you really should be looking at 32gb (I have 32gb, and have come close to filling it up before. Granted, that was before Scene Optimizer came out, which is a FANTASTIC utility).
5) Case: This is where you can have fun and go with what looks pretty to you. I have seen some really cool rigs with all sorts of RGB lighting, color coordinated cables and components, etc. Once you make sure the case meets your needs (Size, ease of working in, connections, slots, etc) then the sky is the limit. Mine is just a big (BIG honking beast) black tower with no lights visible at all, but that's mostly because when I built it the computer was in my bedroom and I didn't need all those extra lights keeping me from sleeping.
Dragotx, thanks, good stuff. I think I agree with just about everything you said. And regarding motherboards, one other issue I had with my upgrade of a Dell box was that there was only one fan header on the MB, and my new case needs 3 fans. What a pain, after the fact, to now have to order a splitter and a molex connecter to connect the other 2 fans. Geez. Like you say, Dell is only interested in optimizing that particular design, and couldn't care less about users being able to upgrade in the future.
But at the end of the day, even with the annoyances, I think if your upgrade is like mine, for a backup computer, a motherboard that's a few years old still might do the trick, along with an older CPU. I was considering keeping the i7 CPU and changing motherboards (for the reasons you mentioned), but practically it just isn't worth it.
Dell is one of the worst about their proprietary hardware. Although they are NOTHING compared to Sony computers. I still have nightmares about some of those. From an engineering perspective, they are works of art. But for actually using/repairing/upgrading one, they are disaters.
And yeah, for a backup/secondary machine you don't have to be as picky about it, since most likely it's not one you're going to be doing much with. The problem I've wound up with doing that though is one of my secondary machines became a primary when I started getting into Studio, so I had to dump more upgrades into it to get it as close to my real primary as I could. I'm starting to consider bringing another one up as well to help with my backlog of renders (i've got 30 sitting waiting for a chance to run right now, not counting the ones that I'm still working on getting ready). But that'll involve buying another big GPU unfortunately.
PCI-e is backwards compatible.
My rendering computer is running PCI-e 2.0 with a GTX 1080 ti with no issues
The only effect this has on render times, is that it will take a little longer to initially transfer the render job over to the card. Oncs the render starts the GPU runs as a self contined unit. (For gaming this machines still maxes out all the settings at 4K resolution dispite the PCI-e 2.0)
Your machine will fit any GPU up to 9 inches long (or 228mm)
Looking at the Service manual for your machine that looks like a standard size Power Supply, and the motherboard has all the standard plugs.
I would just measure it's length (or see if there is anything preventing you from puting a longer one in if the size turns out to be smaller than standard)
DAMN... i need those sticks :-D Made me laugh :-)
i will did deeper into that. Thanks. i hate to spend 400-500 on a card only to have it not able to pound out full performance.
dragotx ..thanks much for the information. I have the same CPU ..its not a bad one for sure. where I get killed is the onboard graphics ..
yes on the ram..I was looking at 32gig ... that system I listed way at the beginning seems to fit the bill, and is really not a bad price ... could upgrade CPU a bit, also the HD size.
Double-check the power supply carefully before upgrading just the video card, if you go that route. I had a Dell T7400 with a 1,000 watt psu that advertised 90 amps at 12 volts (most of the new video cards want a 25-amp auxilary power connection). I found out that the psu in the T7400 had five separate 18 amp outputs. That's when I spec'd out my current system and had a local outfit assemble it for me.
Heh, finally, someone else gets my sense of humor :D
Before you buy planning on upgrading the CPU later, check the prices on CPUs that use that socket. Last time I checked on them prices had gone way up on them because the chipset is discontinued now. The i7-4790k is an 1150 socket, and only CPUs made for that socket will fit on your motherboard.