What do you look for in a toon/art shader? What are your inspirations?
TheNathanParable
Posts: 1,044
A question targeted towards those who prefer doing stylised renders rather than realistic renders. What kind of things do you look for in a stylised shader? Doesn't matter if it's toon or painterly or sketchy or whathaveyou. Are there any particular art styles that you would like to recreate? Post some pictures if you can.
To start off, something which might be obvious to those who have seen Visual Style, I really like trying to recreate the look of Japanese visual novel artwork (like the example below). I've always really enjoyed the soft colours and the nice details put into such artwork, so it's a style that i've always strived for both when using Poser and Daz Studio.
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58 views and no replies? Come on people, surely there must be something out there that inspires you! :P
I'd like a shader that gives a more drawn look, I like lots of options in shaders, I like to be able to alter things to my own taste.
That's a nice image! I want to do non-photo-realism (NPR), but have yet to find a comfortable starting point. I've got the Visual Style shaders on my wishlist, just need to recharge my PayPal first. I've been looking at what is possible with Blender as well, but obviously the easiest way to use all the DAZ content I've got is learning stylized NPR in DS.
I've been learning gradually what it takes to make photorealistic scenes. However, it's almost like running with the Red Queen. "It takes all the running you can do, to keep in the same place." I'm beginning to realize that it is an impossible goal to achieve perfect photorealism. However, to find a visual style that doesn't look like cheap CG is a challenge.
I look for something similar to Borderlands or Jack Kirby/Jim Lee art. Sadly haven't found anything that allows this to be done properly through a shader.
However it is they did Borderlands...so much envy. It looks like a comic book playing the game, which is more than any other 3D game has properly managed thus far.
Well, Borderlands does it mostly through textures. They use shaders to produce the basic cel-shading effect, as well as basic outlines for the scenery, but all of the intricate detailing is done through the textures, by which I mean they actually draw a lot of the outlines on the textures themselves. It's a really simple method that makes a huge difference.
I'm in a similar boat as Agent_Unawares, but I might go further back to artists like Wally Wood, Alex Raymond, and Al Williamson. Their work would influence people like John Buscema, Dave Cockrum and Jim Steranko. It's a lot cleaner than the sketchy work Frank Miller has done lately and has a more classic look.
I can get a pretty decent approximation using pwToon, but I don't think that's what you're asking. I might be wrong, but I suspect you're asking because investigating options for another possible shader set. :) Nothing wrong with that!
The difficulty I see with a non-photo real (NPR) set is that it's not as widespread a rendering style. It might be because of the extra hoops one has to go through in order to get a decent NPR look: first set up the character, then make sure all the right textures are applied, then apply the shader and hope it works correctly (because pwToon and a couple of others don't handle texture tiling so it kind of kills using any plaid textures, or even the great textures that come with the Supersuit sets), then light it.
Then (and this is the part that sometimes kills it for me), post the image that you're so proud of somewhere and not get any response to it, positive or negative. Is it because of the subject matter? Is it because it's rendered in an NPR manner? I once had a chat here with writer/artist Chuck Austen about this and he said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that the work he got the most positive responses from was his photoreal work. I'm sorry, I might just be venting a bit, but working in an NPR style can be very frustrating sometimes. :down::down:
Heck, in the latest version of DS, I can't even get DAZ's Default Toon Shaders to work correctly. Apparently it's been a problem for a while. You can see how DAZ barely even noticed if this has been a bug for a bit. :P
But if you're asking, here's what I'm looking for:
1) A Toon shader that is easy to use. Too many unexplained options can kill a shader dead from being used more than once. The Mirei shader comes quickly to mind.
2) A Toon shader that allows for texture tiling.
3) A Toon shader that allows for different styles and looks, from black and white classic line work to a cartoon style comparable to that Borderlands image above or from Champions Online.
4) A Toon shader that doesn't take forever to render.
5) Presets, presets, presets. pwToon offered presets for Pin-Up styles, but only for a small subset of what's out there. What does one do to create a Pin-up look for someone who's not a blonde California girl wearing a white shirt and blue shorts?
6) Something that I don't have to use the Shader Editor to customize. I have a college degree in Computer Science, but the Shader Editor confuses me. I just want to make pretty pictures, not program a new shader.
That's a start, I guess. Here, I'll hand the soapbox to someone else for a bit...
...
In general I am leaning more towards darker/sci-fi/super natural settings when it comes to anime/toon/manga. E.g. the "Ghost in the shell" movie is still one of my favorites and I enjoy how it is presented - also liked the S.A.C TV series, though the movie is still my favorite. For TV series also "Witch Hunter Robin" for example, where I especially like the color set used. Apart from that "Sin City" I adore and love - so noir style is certainly something I am looking into - and there are actually those "noir presets" in the Visual Style Shaders. This doesn't mean that I ignore everything else, it depends a bit on the mood I guess. In ".hack//SIGN" I liked the distinct difference between "real world" and "in game" display in the series.
Those styles in general are those that I am using or trying to achieve. I'd say the greatest portion for me really are shaders resembling cel shading at the moment.
Ghost in the Shell
Witch Hunter Robin
Sin City
.hack//SIGN
The cel-shading effect and halfway decent-looking outlines are what I want, though. "Toon Outline" and variations on edge blend don't really cut it thus far. Granted, I'd be even happier with ones that look like the comic-style inking I posted.
You might want to take a look at the Free Geometry Shell Outline shader I released in the Freepository. It's a free and improved version of the bonus shader included with Manga Style, and because it uses the Geometry Shell it can be used in conjunction with any other shader out there.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/21273/
My lips are sealed. ;)
I tend to go for a cell style look that I can use for single images and for short animated clips. Most shaders I noticed don't work that well if your doing animation.
My major inspiration tend to be in no particular order as follows:
Duplicating the look in the RPG Maker Portraits that come with XP, VX, VX Ace, and in the Samurai VX Materials. Other style seen in RPG Maker products I'm not interested in trying to duplicate.
The biggest problems I run into is that getting the hair and face to look right doesn't always work. Some figures and hair styles I've noticed don't come out that good. When doing too renders.
I mostly use Carrara for my Toon rendering as i have several plugins to help with that and shaders. DAZ Studio is next and I've gotten good results.
I don't like using DS since the Toon rendering doesn't work correctly. When the change occurred to 4.5 the toon rendering got messed up, and I have seen that will render correctly with my olde DS 3 or would on the on DS 4, but don't with DS 4.5. I had reported the problem on Mantis and mentioned the problem on the forums when 4.5 first was released.
I hate post-work and try and get everything to look good with just one render, even if it means I spend more time working in the 3D program to do this.
What I look for in a shader is:
1.) Easy of use. I want something I'm not going to have to spend a lot of time on tweaking to get it look right.
2.) Presets and example scenes. I do like how PWToon has numerous preset and other presets you can download. For example scenes I like when they use common things you would have in your runtime or free objects, To clarify by what I mean by common Aiko 3, Mecha Girl for A 3, V4 base, and other items you would have in your runtime if you were doing 3D. What I don't mean by common is a hairstyle or outfit that a person most likely won't have in their runtime. Amarseda Hairfor example is more likely to be in a person's runtime than Tuesday Hair.
3.) A clear manual and tutorial on using the Shader. One thing I like about the Visual Style Shaders and Manga Style ones is that PDF guides exist.
4.) Presets for lights and cameras. For toon rendering I use a very different light setting than I would for other types of renders. Having presets for lighting and camera position to help one learn how to best use lighting when working with the shaders is very helpful.
This example, with solid outlines on everything, not just light dependent.
I'm with Zev0 with having good outlines that are not dependent on light.
Also as a side note, I'd like to see either a prop set or a texture expansion for Hero FX Extreme to add speed lines to a scene.
I'd like too see a sketch shader for DAZ 4. I REALLY miss pwSketch.
When you guys say "outlines that are not dependent on lighting", are you referring to Manga Style? Because the lighting dependant outlines in Manga Style are optional, there are presets included that remove the light dependency.
Yes. Can you post an example of what yours look like?
I don't have a render with me handy, although the promo renders for Manga Style should be enough: http://www.daz3d.com/manga-style-shaders
The outline method Manga Style uses is the same "edge_blend" method used by pretty much every other Daz Studio/Poser toon shaders, by which I mean the lines appear uneven as if they'd been inked by hand.
The edge_blend (a.k.a fresnel) method is not light dependant, but geometry dependant. Basically, it takes the angles of the polygons (compared to the camera) and uses them to determine where the edges of the mesh is. This information can then be used to generate a basic outline. However, the method isn't that accurate, causing the line to vary in width depending on how curved a surface is. Surfaces with straight corners (such as a cube, a sword, or a staircase) do not work well with this method.
What Manga Style did was add an extra option that allowed you to make these (uneven) outlines thinner or thicker depending on the lighting in the scene, to mimic the common inking method of using thicker lines to emphasise shading.
Currently, the only way to get accurate even width outlines like the ones you're looking for is to use pwToon, which uses a much more complex method of generating outlines using a combination of depth and normal passes and per-pixel edge detection (at the expense of increased render times). I know the general gist of how it works, but not enough to replicate it myself unfortunately.
That said, I have been able to achieve some good results using the Geometry Shell along with a custom shader (which I have released for free here: http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/21273/ ). It uses a very simple method that has been used in many cel-shaded videogames such as Jet Set Radio. Because it uses the Geometry Shell, it can be combined with any shader you wish (whether it be Visual Style, or UberSurface). Below is a render I made using the Geometry Shell outline.
The Geometry Shell method's actually been around a while: I first heard of the method recommended for "tooning" Ainim8or meshes, since there is no fresnel/edge-blending option available.
I look at the older 4-color comics and mid-century movie posters for a visual style: that and the Deco/Art Nouveau public service and propaganda posters of the inter-war years and WWII. Browse Vintagraph for a couple of hours: you'll see what I mean. Or the back issues of the Black Mask pulp that made Daschiell Hammett famous.
I know. Like I said before, the method was also used in a lot of old videogames to generate decent outlines without shaders (which would've proven too complex at the time). Heck, it's still used quite often today, such as in Poker Night at the Inventory 2 to give Brock Sampson (of Venture Bros fame) black outlines.
just wanted to say that if you plan on using this method..... the geometry shell + toon shader....
Do NOT do it the way I did...
Massive seen with a TON Of props.... i thought "dang its taking forever to change each one to a shell and then add shader... i'll be CLEVER and export scene as obj, import, and make a geometry shell! then turn obj invisible and apply shader to scene obj!"
Let's just say.... I'm neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeever going to do that again. T_T I think my computer is STILL holding a grudge and I filled up like 80gb of virtual memory or something...
HEHE.
Here's a style that I like very much:
This one is the original rendered in Poser Pro 2012
the other two are the result of postwork using gimp and photo editor
love that bottom one! how'd you do it?
Go: gimp / filters / Render / Explosion lines
explosion lines will open a window with configurations of lines: lines amounts, height angle, tips etc, etc..
you just need to play with the configurations until you reach your ideal job.
what version of gimp? Mine doesn't have that!!
but i also just love the color and shading of the figure at the bottom...
Gimp 2.8
and cor and shading is in "photo editor" using the filter "Denoise" filter and lighting
There are times when I apply the filter denoise 4 or 5 times, just by clicking and clicking button denoise
The person who suggested shadows that are not dependent on lighting is on the right track. The only way that we're ever going to get better cel-shading in 3D is when we're able to manually set the coverage of shadows on each surface and not have it be based on where real 3D lighting falls.
Would this be possible? : create a shader with a secondary diffuse color that can be applied over the base layer (like what the Ubersurface2 already does), but with 1) a falloff control that shrinks the area affected by the diffuse (so you can adjust the size of the region that gets recolored) and 2) XY (or UV) transition controls that allow the recolored area to be moved around the surface (kind of like how we can use the U and V dials to move textures around on the UVs or repeat tiling patterns). That would enable us to apply a shaded area to a leg for example, then use the controls to change the size of the shaded area and move it around the surface so that it only shades as much of the leg as we want it to, regardless of lighting.
Just a thought. :)
SnowS
I think that goes beyond what is possible with conventional shaders, especially within Daz Studio. To use such a system in Daz Studio would also be very difficult, as you would have no direct feedback as to how the shadows look, you'd have to re-render the area every time you make a small change just to see how it looks. To be perfectly honest, once you get to the point where you are literally drawing in shadows regardless of the lighting, you might as well just paint them directly onto the diffuse texture (which would probably be possible once Casual finishes his painting plugin). Also, i'm kind of having difficulty imagining how this would be used.
Also, to clarify, they were talking about outlines that weren't dependant on lighting, not shadows. ^^" Although the only shader pack that provides light dependant outlines is Manga Style, and even then it is an optional feature.
You know more about building shaders than I do, so point taken. :) I'm actually not sure what the point outlines not being dependent on light is though, the only thing that would be nice to have regarding outlines would be to be able to choose exactly where they have more weight (thickness), and I don't imagine that's possible in 3D.
Shadows are really the issue though, no matter how it's done. They're the reason why 3D art doesn't look 2D (and not having as many cartoony hair styles as realistic ones doesn't help either). ;)
Painting plugin???
I like SuperHero or funny comics better than Anime esp. don't like certain Anime video (not sure what type it is that really bother my eyes with the flashing etc.). I have read that comic book stores are going out of business and we may have a future where comics are all online via ipads etc.... that may really change the shading of comics from the classic styles geared to print medium.
Well, I do remember Casual expressing an interest in doing a painting plugin once he finished his sculpting plugin (mcjWarp).
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/21044/
And here worked contours in AKVIS Sketch: