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Thanks!
Btw, I probably explained it wrong. When I say "she does as ordered", I meant her training. He is actually annoyed at her for that, while she is annoyed at him for dropping out after his grandfather died and doing whatever he wants. And that's is usually the spark of the bickering and the jabs they throw at each other.
And yep, I already have a script for some pages done, so I'm fleshing out first the things I'll need in Daz (places, characters, etc). Sharing them as soon as I got them done
I've been more of a lurker in this thread, but I figured I would join in to offer some feedback (hopefully leaving some food for thought). I do agree with @BeeMKay's feedback and my advice would also be to be more cautious about how you approach your concept. Not because you aren't allowed to be absurd, but because (for better or worse) we now live in an era where people get offended easily... and they let you know, lol. So, full disclosure, I'm a woman. I think this is important because by what you have shared, I wouldn't consider myself your target market. And this part is key. Who is your comic for? That alone should tell you where to go and whose feedback to listen to.
Now the reasons I don't consider myself your target market, is because what you have shown and explained raises a few red flags for me:
Just my two cents ;).
TL;DR: Find out who your target is and make decisions based on that :).
Hey, thanks for the feedback! (also, great stuff in your store, I actually have been wandering around there these days considering getting some of the scars and bruises since... well... I'll be needing them *whistles* xD)
So... I'm finding hard to answer this because I'd need to pretty much explain everything about the comic to say "it's not like that". And, well... it's not. Also, I find hard to talk about the issue of offending people, because on the internet is harder to express it without people thinking I'm maybe lashing out (I'm not) and thus... offending them xD
Key point: Issues are intentional, characters need to grow or the story is boring. But I can assure you... it's not like what you said. Or at least, not as simple. Honestly, the best thing I can say is, you'd have to read it to know for sure. Of course, it still could be something you wouldn't like for other reasons, but at the very least I'm pretty sure the dynamic of the comic is very far away from the things you mentioned. I mean, I can only explain so much without just telling the whole story xD
About the outfit, I actually find the idea of a butler outfit very funny and I might use it if I can whip something good with the resources I have. And that is another issue. As everybody making comics with Daz, I'm limited to my library. Funny thing, I'm really not into maids, that's the only one I have and it's because Aiko 8 Pro Bundle was the first Genesis 8 I bought. I did have another longer one in my sights for the other maid idea but in the end, the melee idea won so this one worked fine (imho). I do have lots of suits but I'll have to test them to see if I can get the "butler vibe" since most of them are "office types"
The target... if this was a project I was doing with the idea of "I need to sell this", then yeah, I can get behind the idea of tweaking it for a desired target. But it's not. So, honestly, my plan is just using stuff I think is funny and that hopefully conveys the "deeper" argument I want to make. So, basically, my target is people that don't get offended by whatever is the result of that and find it entertaining. I mean, using the outfit as an example, a maid or a butler works for me. Both are funny, and I'm not against "sex tense situations" (ie. nothing more than what's allowed on webtoon and probably even less), but I don't need the maid outfit for that. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if someone gets offended because I dressed the tall, strong girl in "manly clothes", heh.
EDIT:
Made a quick n' dirty test.
I like how it emphasizes her serious personality, but so far, I don't really feel like it stands out that much. Not showing any muscle/vein also feels less imposing to me.
@mazinkaiserzero, thanks! We tried to gear our products towards storytelling. Which is where the bruise idea sprung from.
And yeah, I understand exactly where you're coming from in regards to how to handle feedback. I think it's the same when one gives feedback. My intention is never to hurt, be dismissive or be destructive. So I try to give feedback as neutrally as possible, while still stating an honest opinion.
I do think she looks much better as a butler, but I understand that it may not fit your vision. Personally, I find she looks much more intimidating with that suit that with the maid outfit. You can make it stand out by giving it another color.
Still, I kept thinking about how to balance your characters out visually. Because while it's not your intention, the image you shared comes across as a joke only at the expense of your female character. So it's the combination of things (he's dressed normally vs she's a caricature, he's rich (?) while she's not, he's her boss while she's her employee etc) that causes a knee-jerk reaction of: "Yeah... male fantasy... not for me. Moving on."
BUT if you dress him JUST as absurdly, then not only do you balance out the characters, but you actually make him more interesting in the process. Since the only job that has the sexualization of a "sexy maid" for males is "the pool boy" that wouldn't really work out. But if you mix up a bunch of stereotypes to create this fashion mess, then you're fully embracing the absurdity rather than using only one gender to tell the joke. So this are just ideas:
Now you render a man that's also dressed absurdly next to a woman who's dressing as a maid because when she tried to dress normally while he dressed so bad, people kept thinking she was a hostage. You show that render and it instantly gets rid of all the preconceived notions you weren't aiming for while making it interesting and absurd. Now we're wondering just what the heck both of them are thinking. And maybe he's prancing about thinking his outfit is an awesome fashion statement. So when people back away from them or give them looks, he really believes it's because she decided to dress as a maid (not at all aware of his own terrible sense of fashion).
Hmmm... I'm getting the feeling that maybe the issue is only having one render as reference?
The guy also has a thing going on. Overall I tried to make him look a bit... lazy? sloppy?... but he loves detective stories so I couldn't go full-on shorts and t-shirt (at least not while he's working). So I settled with sneakers and the 3 days beard for the lazy/sloppy part. I know it's not much but I'm going to play more the absurd part with him trying to look and do stuff the "detective way". And there is also the part of the dynamic between them where she is the one putting the brakes as much as she can to his "idiocy" so he doesn't get to be as absurd as he'd like.
I didn't use the trenchcoat in the render of them together because I have been trying to deal with how horrible it is for posing. There I'm using dforce but it has its own set of problems (probably you will spot the two issues I'm having xD). The hat, he actually never gets to wear it... let's just say... she does something, heh. (the dynamic I just mentioned)
Playing more on the lazy part. Not sure if I got it right there, I get a bit of "asshole vibe" there too, though he isn't.
Unlike him, she still trains herself, so I was playing around with clothes for her when she's doing so.
Which is the other thing one render doesn't "tell". Clothes won't be something too static "anime style". I mean, even the maid (or butler, not sure yet) outfit, as I mentioned in another post, she will "grow out of it". And that leads me to the balance issue. Hmmm... in a way, it's intentional, but not really thinking about it in terms of "power", more like each is "an extreme" so both the characters get to change during the story. And considering that at this point I'm not planning for something too long, I imagine the changes will come pretty fast, but that's something I can't say precisely until I start with the pages.
Well, I think a lot of this depends on context. And, as you said, on what you have available. The current PC sale is a great way to stock up on things, but even then, you need the dough to buy stuff.
I like the idea of him seeing himself as a sort of "hero" but actually being a sloppy lazy butt. And if she uses the costumes on purpose, then that's even better. I liked the dialogue Mike pinned out - it gave her power over her situation rather than making her a victim of her "if I bend forward you'll see my panties" type of costume.
Images can be misleading. And in the end, it's really about the story you want to tell.
Thanks!
Yeah, I have been at it with the PC sale, but it's pretty hard because it's SO much stuff and you don't know what's coming the following days. In fact, that has been a major time drain for me these days xD
I set a max daily budget I can keep up, then every day is adding a BUNCH of stuff to the cart, and THEN is the elimination (send to wishlist actually xD) process to fit the budget. Lots of heartbreaks every day *sigh*
Black Sun: The Longest Night
is a Graphic Novel created using DAZ, Kelvin has several videos on utube, a bit old but I expect still quite useful.
https://blacksuncomics.com/
Check it out. BB.
So!
While I'm making some pages, I wanted to discuss something I have been wondering about lately.
I know it's important to tweak the models to try getting a customized look as much as possible, I'd say double important for materials like comics (unless, I don't know, you are making literally a "Daz Comic" where there is this meta universe with the Daz character's being aware of what they are and fighting some threat....hmmm... that sounds like fun actually xD *takes notes*)... *ehem*... anyway, I know it's important, but have you ever been in a situation where you see a character and think "That's it! That's the exact look I want for "x" character in my stuff!" and then proceed to groan out of frustration because you know you will have to tweak it anyway? And I don't even mean the "main Daz characters" (though I wish I could use a couple...), but random characters from PAs. I do wonder sometimes how bad would it be if I just use them straight "out of the box"
EDIT (saw the post after I posted my own xD)
Yeah, I watched most of them! I also watched some from another guy making a comic basically about "young Santa Claus" that I can't remember the name right now. They do a lot more postwork than what I'm aiming for (especially the Santa Claus one), but from them, it was that I figured I could try rendering the backgrounds and the characters separately. I mean, I already do that for my "normal" renders when I want to add some effects in the BG only or if the scene is too heavy, but I don't move things around after I did the composition in Daz because then shadows and lighting are off. But watching those videos was that it clicked in my head that each panel in a comic isn't supposed to be a "full scene".
I think you shouldn't worry about it too much. If the character is right then the character is right. After all, a lot of people who read your comic will not be Daz users and won't know that you're using "Ollie" straight out of the box. And as for the legal bit, the common license at Daz allows for you to use all of the products in comics. You only need to pay for extended liceses to create video games (YEAH, YEAH, YEAH, I'm simplifying things, but I'm 99% right with this summary).
Look, I think YOU'LL be happier if you customize the characters more than using them out of the box. But don't let that stop you from using a character that's perfect for a role just because someone might have seen him before. Think about it as a director in a real-world movie. Just because this guy played a terrorist in Die Hard doesn't mean he can't play Big Joe (Cop by day, stripper by night) in your production.
Well, I guess it's not necessarily the problem if the reader is a Daz user or not, I mean, if a decent number of people using Daz for comics and stories start using just the defaults, then it will become something like RPG Maker, where everybody is sick of seeing lots of games with the saaame sprites over and over. On the other hand, my train of thought goes exactly to the last thing you pointed out and I find it funny people doesn't have issues watching one day Brad Pitt as a modern mercenary married to a rival mercenary, and another day as a soldier in WW2, but probably will complain if they see Ollie used in two unrelated comics even if the character it's "playing" is also something else.
I do agree customizing characters is more fun, heck, I "lose" a lot of time just doing that and imagining the dozens of adventures and dialogues that character would have (instead of actually starting rendering those adventures xD). but like I said, sometimes I see a character in the store and I go "yep, that's the character I had in mind for x story" and feels like reinventing the wheel having to tweak it.
Btw, I'm not worried about the legal at all. I did consider at some point using Daz to make models for game making in Unity so I did some digging about that. Basically, you just need the interactive license if you are going to use the actual mesh and have people, well, interact with it (hence the name). You can do, afaik, absolutely whatever you want if you are just using rendered images.
Most of my main characters are heavily tweaked, because I wanted them looking the way they do now. Characters that are only seen as "crowd" are often out of the box, maybe a light mix with another character to adjust to etnicity represented. But I have one recurring character with a certain importance who is a Lee 6 out of the box (the skin turned Iray, but that's all the tweaking. He was just fitting the role so well I chose to keep him. ( I got to admit I still think Lee 6 one of the best characters ever)
I think from people not using Daz nobody will even think about that much for as long as the character play his role well (like a movie you forget about the actor if they play convincing) So that is the basic,t the characters need to be convincing in their world.
If you plan to postwork the rendered look nobody will blow a horn after the character origins anyway.
On a totally different topic
I finally hit the 1K subscribers on webtoons :D
Congrats, Linwelly! That's a real achievement!
As for tweaking, I sometimes thing "wow, yeah, I could use that one as a character out of the box! But when it comes down to actually putting together the character, I start adding imperfections, size changes (like, leg lengths, arm length) adding in different morphs, do something to the skin, etc. By the way, just adding a different skin to a character can make the underlying mesh look comletely different!
An example of "from out of the box to final character": Here's the base of my character Duon on the left side (converted to Iray), and Duon with his added morphs, different eye colour and some map desaturation and shader fiddling on the right side. There's a similarity, but I think they are distictively different, and my character also looks unique.
Thanks a lot Bee!
LOL panties and gloves, ;)
interesting comparison, your changes make him a little more average human, though I think the original skin on the left side guy is looking rather good, which one is that?
Yeah, that's Duon for you.
The charcacter 8and skin is) https://www.daz3d.com/malakai-for-lee-6
I used the Iray converter with Option two on it, so it's just a basic converstion without tweaking. https://www.daz3d.com/iray-smart-converter-and-advanced-skin-managers-for-genesis-2
I wanted to be number 1k!... Sadly, I was just the measly number 999 subscriber xD
And yes! I didn't notice while reading the comic because I started using Daz when Genesis 8 was new so I have only used G3 and G8 characters. I only get G2 clothes and props to convert them. But! I did see Lee 6 during the sales recently and I was like "Ooooh! It's him! The creep!" xD
About the postwork, I don't think I'll do too much that will change the rendered look. I got Sketchy for "free" during the sales but just doing a quick test I didn't like what I got. I'll tinker more with it later but for now, I just want to start the comic already
Well, if I think the character is perfect for the role out of the box, I don't think I'll change the face since that's the thing that usually makes me go "oh! this is the one!", maybe the eyes if the default eyes look too dark in the renders (I think it's Emry's models that "suffer" from this a lot). The body, yeah, probably tweak it a bit. Maybe try some other skins (he said, hoping he didn't sound like a serial killer xD). And yep, Duon looks quite different from his base. Personally, I like the morphed one better too
Something to be mindful of is that even "out of the box" characters can be completely changed by hair and clothing choices. For instance, last year i was trying to find the right look for a character, so I created this comparison. Now, the figure is Michael 4 with a face morph by Farconville (this is a R'osity product). In this line-up, the face and lighting are 100% identical. Only the hair is different. Notice how it changes the apparent height of the figure (Olly hair needs to rid up high on the head, which makes him appear taller and with a longer face. Likewise, Fugitive Hair can ride lower on the scalp, making him appear more boxy and square. Knicky Hair is pulled back off the face so it seems wider.
I found this to be an interesting experiement, even though none of the hair (or the face) made the final cut for the project.
FYI: If anyone is interested, I found that Beach Hair is one of the most versatile hair props to use with Michael 4. It has several styling options that can make it shorter and neat (perfect for a businessman) or messier, which works well for action and younger figures.It doesn't look that great here because I was just learning how to use it, but it is a really good hair prop.
To me, the left figure looks a little younger because he's less filled-out than the guy on the right. The skin color on the right is more tan so he looks like he's more active/athletic. One thing I strive for in my work is different body types with some people being heavier and some being skinny. Not comically fat or rail thin, but I want there to be people who look different from the "model-perfect" figures that dominate comics and movies. I also do the same for height. Having a guy who is significantly shorter (like 4-6 inches) than the others can really help create visual diversity.
The hero of my comic is more stocky than most action heroes. In this early image he was a bit too heavy, so I tightened up his waistline a bit and added a hint of abs (I also changed the hair to Beach Hair).
Tha's a really nice comparison and it shows what Griffin was saying as well, that a lot of the character creation is done by the hair and the clothes. It's a constant fun part when I work on a new character and I hven it mostly morphed to what I want, then I start selecting the hair, loading a lot of alternatives into the scene and flipping through eliminating one by one. Once the choice is done I go back to fine tuning the character.
Different bodytypes is an important part of character being believable, though that is something I sometimes leave out when creating background characters
That's funny because at first glance, I thought those were 4 different characters and he was showing off his facial morphs.
then I start selecting the hair
Yes. I had that issue and the one where you change the hair cut and it no longer looks like the character.
That's also the biggest dissapointment when buying Daz characters and you load that awesome face and it looks so different than what hooked you- once you change the hair and lighting.
It's uncanny how much a person's haitcut matters.
Men especially with beards.
Yep. Indeed.
https://www.daz3d.com/houston-hd-for-genesis-8-male
Also, this is a render meant for a photo in the male main character's office, he is the left character with different hair, no beard, and well... fat removed, but in the face is only a bit in the jawline.
To me, he reads younger, but not that much younger. Maybe take off a few more pounds and see what you get. What really puzzles me are the girl's hands. I cannot see what she is holding, so her arms look strange to me. I do like the feet (yes, unrealistic, but they are interesting here in a portrait.
I find it interesting that both men seem to be looking off to the side but the woman is staring right at us. Hmmmm. What's going on?
Who the heck does that guy in the middle remind me of? He looks like a politician or actor, but I just can't place him.
Hah. I love it! Your reaction perfectly illustrates how important a hairstyle is to a character. I read an article about the new Riverdale series and how, the first time they dyed the lead actor's hair (he plays the red-headed Archie), it took three-hours to get the color to look just right for his complexion and on camera. And they have to do touch-ups about three times a month (more if he's out in the sun a lot) to keep it looking correct. If you ever look at any old movie documentaries, you'll see how much time and effort can be put into getting the look just right.
If you want a good example, google "judy garland dorothy hair style tests" and take a look at the various braids and 'dos they tried on her before selecting the iconic look we all know and love.
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And I completely relate to what you wrote about buying a face or character and then being disappointed that I cannot get it to look right on my own figures.
Here's another fun side-by-side comparison. This is a character design that I ultimately rejected because the face changes too much with the lighting. I finally decided that – with my art style – the cheekbones need to be a little stronger, and so does the chin. This is exactly the same character and hair. All I did was change the lighting (and there is a tiny difference in the manual postwork I did on the hair and a few lines on the face around the chin).
What do you guys think?
This is exactly the same character and hair.
I find that almost impossible to believe.
The EXPRESSION looks completely different.
No way. No....way.
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The shadow that covers his eye makes him look like he's looking directly at us.
The un-shadowed eye makes him look like he's looking downward.
The left, half mouth makes it look like a frown as we only see the drooping downward part of his mouth.
The right picture covers the downward curve of his lips and we only see the smirk.
This is crazy.
You need to share this picture somewhere else or maybe write a blog post about lighting.
Cause that's just crazy, right there.
I know, right? This is really an odd effect caused entirely by lighting. Maybe I will post it to my blog (not that anyone spends much time reading it, mind you). This is one of the great things about 3D: you can create the exact same image under multiple conditions and see how everything works to create different looks and emotions. You know, even I kept checking out the eyes: did I move them slightly? Nope. When I did the overlay in Photoshop I could clearly see that the eyes hadn't moved; it's just a trick of light. The only difference between the images is the hair, and that's just because I did the postwork by hand, so there are a few differences (the highlights changed, so I needed to change my ink lines to accommodate them).
Just a heads up for those interested, clip studio paint is available for 50% price reduction atm,
Just got myself the pro version, now I'm interested what I can do with it :D
CSP is nice for making the panels and speech balloons, also it has some nice comic effects. Sadly, the onomatopoeia effects are in Japanese. Btw, for CG postwork for those of us who don't want to use PS (pay monthly *cough*) I think this is probably quite helpful: (only 19 hours left!)
https://www.humblebundle.com/software/painter-create-with-confidence-encore?hmb_source=navbar&hmb_medium=product_tile&hmb_campaign=tile_index_3
This is an encore, I got it the first time a couple of months ago (I think) and PSP is what I have been using for render tweaking. Still haven't used Painter or ParticleShop though but they look great. Hopefully they will be enough so I don't mind not using Ron's stuff u.u
I'm a big fan of Clip Studio Paint. My line art workflow would be very tedious without it. Some of the features I like are:
Here's my comic I started on WebToons. Don't forget to "like" if you do!
https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/beryl-valley/intro/viewer?title_no=331625&episode_no=1
https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/beryl-valley/attack/viewer?title_no=331625&episode_no=2
https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/beryl-valley/spoiling-the-lair/viewer?title_no=331625&episode_no=3