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There are far more reasons to have a manual then not in my experience with 3DCG. I've already stated that I would not feel right in telling someone to purchase, and I'll add, a COMPLEX piece of software without a manual. There are courses to learn these programs. How do you teach a course without a manual/documentaion of some kind? Do the students have to memorize everything the teacher says/does?
I have also seen/read some important features topics that still have no explantions on the net or in the forums. Guesses, yes, but not answers. Worse is that the current manuals are so out of date and have some errors, it could cost someone time or sent in the wrong directions. This could give them impression that company doesn't care, so why should they continue purchasing the software(s).
Many here have stated that they printed out manuals for sofware they have. Even if it cost alot. Books are written and sold for software. Suggestions that online sources might work for some people, the question is; how many verses those that want/need a manual to carry them through learning a software. In a poll, I'm guessing better than 90% would want a manual. Word of mouth, even about a decent manual, in a forum can help alot to sell software in this day and age(imho).
No that is spelled sooon, to designate it as a DAZ soon ;-)
"Do the students have to memorize everything the teacher says/does?" tbwoq
Isn't that what education is? I know in a few of my college classes I regretted buying the books for them because we never used them. All tests were based on in class lectures. So yes, you took and memorized your notes.
The current manual is reasonably up to date. The only thing missing would be about the features added to C8, which were???
I'm not saying a comprehensive up to date manual isn't a good thing, quite the contrary. But I stand a better chance of getting a date with amazon Eve, then getting an up to date manual for Carrara. When was the last time Studio; DAZ's premier app, had an actual manual? Has it ever?
DAZ just doesn't do manuals, you can't sell them, they aren't content, there is no profit in it. Yes, not having a manual has cost them a few carrara sales, may even be the reason schools are using studio rather then carrara {whom expects a free app to have a manual}. But, like many companies they already figure in some customer losses. Of coarse it is my opinion that loosing one customer over carrara not having an up to date manual is 1 too many. DAZ doesn't seem to take in to account the long term loss of revenue from just 1 customer.
Since I was transcripted by DAZ I have, on average, spent $200 plus a year at DAZ. But the past couple of years that has dropped to less the $50 simply because I am still waiting on C8.5. Add to that DAZ's latest marketing strategy of a new dolly every year, and I have lost all motivation to shop here. I'm not rebuying everything every few months when DAZ changes the dolly flavor.
But with ADHD and dyslexia a manual does me little good. The problem with a manual is information is given to you myopically. And for me I often need it explained in a different manner; I'm sure I am not the only one.
Yes I flip back and forth on this, I don't need a manual, but I can see how some would.
Wikis are in theory wonderful ways for a community to build a knowledge base that everyone can use. The problem is that it tends only to bring the community up to speed on what the community already knows. (See also: Wikipedia.)
(Bonus: Check out Wikipedia's page on Carrara.)
(Double Bonus: Then check out the talk page on Wikipedia's Carrara page.)
Wikis are in theory wonderful ways for a community to build a knowledge base that everyone can use. The problem is that it tends only to bring the community up to speed on what the community already knows. (See also: Wikipedia.)
DAZ's wiki is by DAZ programmers and employees but not the community. They did ask at one point for help from Carrara users and only had 3 users who were willing to help.
And, Stan, there was a DAZ Studio manual a few versions back. I printed it out, but found I got more useful info from the videos and forums. The old Studio manual is also incorporated in the documentation DAZ has online.
I have always had issues with video tutorials and only recently found out for sure I have ADHD. So when I am watching a tutorial I am listening to the voice tones and accent and /or checking out the persons UI layout and miss what is being said/done in the video :red:
I really wasn't sure about the Studio manual because I don't recall seeing one. But then I didn't really start using studio till it got the tools in DS3. As I have said too many times, I see Studio as being a great support app for carrara ;-)
I always wondered what ADHD was like.
I've used Studio as a plugin for Carrara in the past, too, but I've been using it more and more since the new version was released.
I had not heard that phrase, but it does sound appropriate.
:coolsmile:
"DAZ Soon" is kind of a running gag around here. Back when we were on Carrara 7 and people wondered where the heck Carrara 8 was, we had many threads with the term DAZ Soon.
This is why I tend to get annoyed with the bitch about DAZ or bitch about Carrara threads. They are rarely productive and they are like broken records.
Here's a render I did when we had a new Carrara bimbo thread for the upcoming release of Carrara 8.
"This is why I tend to get annoyed with the bitch about DAZ or bitch about Carrara threads. They are rarely productive and they are like broken records" evilproducer
Agree. It very rarely motivates DAZ to actually fix anything ;-)
I realised some might say, thats how you learn by memorizing classes etc. Thats why the word "everything" is in italics. Was thinking about how the students would not be able to remember where the teacher moved and clicked the mouse. So they need documentation to refer to. :)
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Its been said more than a few times, that DAZ might not have the resources to write the manual. If that is true, then maybe an DAZ official can step in here and take suggestions(again) for ideas in how to get a manual/documentation written. I still suggest updating then adding to the C6 manuals format is the easiest/fastest way. Like how the native content was improved. No need to redo anything, just clean up and update.
I agree, some issues like the manual seem like beating the proverbial dead horse. However, provided the issues are valid, I think discussing them in an direct user feeback way is how things get fixed faster. Some here might remember the Carrara Mimic plug-in issue. It took quite a bit of feedback forum discussion before that was finally fixed(if I recall). The current lack of documentation is like that in a way.
I realised some might say, thats how you learn by memorizing classes etc. Thats why the word "everything" is in italics. Was thinking about how the students would not be able to remember where the teacher moved and clicked the mouse. So they need documentation to refer to. :)
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Its been said more than a few times, that DAZ might not have the resources to write the manual. If that is true, then maybe an DAZ official can step in here and take suggestions(again) for ideas in how to get a manual/documentation written. I still suggest updating then adding to the C6 manuals format is the easiest/fastest way. Like how the native content was improved. No need to redo anything, just clean up and update.
I agree, some issues like the manual seem like beating the proverbial dead horse. However, provided the issues are valid, I think discussing them in an direct user feeback way is how things get fixed faster. Some here might remember the Carrara Mimic plug-in issue. It took quite a bit of feedback forum discussion before that was finally fixed(if I recall). The current lack of documentation is like that in a way.
You'd think that wouldn't you. But my experience says other wise. Oh the stories I could tell you if the mods wouldn't delete the post.
No, you are not. While I don't have ADHD or dyslexia, I do learn from a variety of sources. A manual is nice...but so are forums or training videos or watching somebody, etc. Oftentimes, the various inputs reinforce each other. I see PhilW doing something in his training and what I read in the manual or a forum post suddenly clicks with an "Eureka!"
Of course. But I would change your intro to "a manual is essential". I have PhilW's Carrara DVD's, and I have learned a lot from them. But when I need to know what the little slider deep in a Carrara menu does ... Phil ain't there. There may not be anybody there in a Google search.
The programmer needs to be there (via the documentation) to say "This is what it does." Then I might say, "YES! Great!" But otherwise, I say WTF, why is this slider here.
Just my opinion, I realize I am "manual obsessive", apparently.
And BTW, I have asked DAZ to clarify their position on the Carrara documentation. Britney is on the case.
FYI, though it is up-to-date, I am not really a fan of how NewTek does the LightWave manual. Each release gets an addendum "mini-manual" that covers just the new bits. So you need to read the manual for v9 for the "old stuff" and then lookup stuff in v10, v11, v11.5...
I definitely prefer an all-in-one-place approach.
Agreed entirely, and I still do use Lightwave when I find a very nice scene. Then, of course, I have to remember the commands. F9 to render, I recall ... B-}
An addendum covering the new bits would be nice for Carrara 8. I think I mentioned that in the Forum.
Off Topic, I guess: Adobe does it right. Photoshop, the most bullet proof software ever, has a wonderful "Help" feature. They win.
Be sure to keep us updated. Sorry, I can't find the Smiley I want.
My only point is this.....there is nothing wrong, whatsoever, with complaining about the lack of an updated manual. Complaining is one way to get things done. It's a good thing, and any software company worth anything values that kind of input. No matter how it's presented, not matter how many times you beat the dead horse and how many people you offend for daring to be "negative", it's valuable to the company. IF they're listening, of course...
HOWEVER, don't think that what you want is what everyone else wants, or that "the ball is in their court", because if you care about getting stuff done, it's NOT in their court, it's in YOUR court. Because they sold you a product under whatever terms you purchased it under at the time, and after that they owe you NOTHING. And the terms at the time said NOTHING about an up to date manual.
Now you can argue until your face turns purple whether they have a "moral" or "commercial" responsibility, whatever that is, to give you what you want, but unfortunately they have neither. They decide to give their customers stuff that either brings them more revenue, or more customers, or both. And if your view of a manual doesn't fit in there somewhere, all your complaining ain't gonna get you nothin'.
And in spite of how convinced you are that a manual is "essential", I guarantee that there is a large population of customers who strongly disagree. Personally, I couldn't care less about a manual, and I've probably checked the manual less than a dozen times in the years I've used Carrara. So I'd much rather have them spend their time on development. And there are people out there who don't like manuals, and only want videos. So whether you think Adobe has it right or not, what really matters is what DAZ views as in their best interests. And if your view of a manual doesn't agree with what they think is in their best interests, all the waiting for them to return the ball that is in their court will just make you wait a lot.... :)
So you either sit there with your arms folded and a scowl on your face and wait for them to give you what you want, or choose another way to get what you want. And if you really do care about learning about how to operate the software, like I say there are MANY other avenues open to you. But if your only real desire is to push your point and complain about the company, then there ain't much we can do to help other than listen. But if you really want to become more skilled at doing 3D stuff, I'm sure we can provide you with a lot of suggestions on how to proceed..
The ball is in your court.... :)
"My only point is this.....there is nothing wrong, whatsoever, with complaining about the lack of an updated manual. Complaining is one way to get things done. It's a good thing, and any software company worth anything values that kind of input. No matter how it's presented, not matter how many times you beat the dead horse and how many people you offend for daring to be "negative", it's valuable to the company. IF they're listening, of course..." JoeMamma2000
And there in lies the rub. This is DAZ, DAZ will do what DAZ will do and us cash cows don't count. There have been multiple repeated occasions where us customers have been in an uproar about something. But in all my years here there has only been 3 times I can remember where DAZ has changed anything based on customers complaints. More often then not you will have a DAZ rep post how wrong you are in your complaints. And I can't site some of the BS DAZ has pulled over the years because the post will get pulled. The fact of the matter is DAZ doesn't want you to know the facts of the matter.
That has not happened here, yet anyway. Forum posters, yes, but I don't know that any are DAZ reps. Disagreement is fine, but I'd like the tone to be civil (myself included), i.e. let's just agree to disagree.
I have already given my suggestions on what should happen if the promised documentation update (still being promised on the Documentation page, as I mentioned) has been abandoned.
"agree to disagree" is the last gasp of a loosing argument.
I disagree.
I think it simply means people acknowledging they have different opinions on a topic, and further discussion will not change that:
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/agree_to_disagree
The value of program documentation is a topic where people can have different opinions, and also respect the opinions of others.
I've never seen it used by anyone that wasn't losing an argument ;-)
No one here is disagreeing that a manual is a good thing. We just have differing opinions of it's importance.
But I do think most will agree we don't have a snowballs chance in L of getting an up to date manual. As has been said, there is no profit in it. And now DAZ is nothing but profit oriented even at the cost of a few customers.
I understand. I do think DAZ should clarify the issue officially, as I've discussed, so that current and potential future owners of Carrara will know the status of the program.
I checked through some of the current PDF manuals available. C6 Online Help(the one that ships with Carrara), Carrara 7 User Guide and Carrara 8 Basic Guide. Carrara 6/7 manuals are the most complete. The Carrara 8 Basic Guide is still very early beta, so not worth it to download atm.
I still find the Carrara 6 PDF to be the best one. It is a smaller file size(approximately 21mb verses C7's 60mb, not sure why) and has some tutorials attached. This is probably why DAZ still ships this one. The C7 User Guide is almost a duplicate of C6, but is single column verses two column reading per page. It did have some better and more update images though(like some vertex modeler features). If I recall correctly, the community voted for the C7 PDF format.
Both C6/7 manuals had various errors or out of date information such as, Carrara Express is discontinued, a CD is no longer supplied for installation, Pro verses Standard available feature errors(as does the current Carrara feature site pages), and possible broken PDF links etc. Some things are covered in in a slightly different way and the C6 PDF covers vertex displacement modeling, C7's doesn't.
I agree, there appears to be more than enough information to learn Carrara, using both current manuals and other sources. I just think completed and updated manuals(or documentation) go a long way to show support and what Carrara can do. Having some important features undocumented could mean someone looks to another program, because the info wasn't available.
Below is what I found to be undocumented for Carrara 8.1 and the 8.5 beta. There are alot of things I probably missed and some seem trivial, but was thinking of what a new user might need. If I missed anything major or somethings incorrect, I can edit the listing for reference.
*Undocumented features in C8.1 Pro Build 153:
Physics->Bullet physics all features(continuing beta)
Physics tab->Collision Distance slider
Animation->Edit Posed Meshes(important for content)
Animation->Attatch Deformer
Detach Deformer
Create Deformer(Magnet)
Shading->Normal maps
Shading->Texture Map->Premultiplied Alpha
Lighting->Negative lights
Lighting->Barn doors
Lighting->Light Sphere->Realistic/Quality
Lighting->IES(Photometric profile)lights
Atmosphere->God rays or Sunbeams
Edit->Remove Unused Masters->Consolidate Duplicate Shaders
Remove Unused Clips
Remove Unused Objects
Edit->Connect Anything Glows Light
Edit->Smooth Objects...
Browser->File Folder menu>Collapse/Uncollapse All
>Reveal Hidden
>Auto detect runtimes
>Create Index File
Sequencer->Play Every Frame icon
Sequencer->Filtering drop down menu. All Hide commands
Sequencer->Applying multiple tweeners
Scene->Sun Light/Moon Light Assemble room projections
Scene->Hide Unselected Objects
Scene->Taget Helper Objects
Modeling->Weight Paint->Negative/Positive buldge
Modeling->Bone tab->Save Weight Maps only for DAZ Content(V4.2 etc.)
Modeling->Command/Ctrl+Alt for Vertex room pivot point
Modeling->Symmetry Weight Painting
Modeling->Model tab->UV Subdivision
Rendering->Compatability Shadows Mode
Rendering-> Misc.->Tile Size slider
Main window Carrara icon->About Carrara & Register Carrara
Network Render updates(Manage Rendering Nodes)
Volumetric Clouds->General Shuffle Buttton and Animation enter value box
Plants->Multiple leaves features
Effects tab->Bone->all features
General tab->Display skinning bounding boxes
Parameters tab->Deformers
Filters tab->Toon Part III>Highlight Edge/Size
Filters tab->Aura->distance attenuation
Instances tab->Find enter text box
Controllers tab->Puppeteer
Motion tab->Protected Constraint
Motion tab->Full Constraint
Cameras->Distance to near plane
General tab->Animation Group->Control Shaders
Misc. tabs->Save/Load Component icons
Particles->Generate particles before start time and Shuffle button
Preferences->Common File Load Settings
*Undocumented features in C8.5 Pro Beta 204:
Animation->Fit to...
Zero(+drop down menu commands)
Memorize(+drop down menu commands)
Restore(+drop down menu commands)
Sequencer->Graph Editor scaling box
Shading->Texture Map->Fast MipMap
Shading->Operator->Multi-Layer
Shading->Operator->Multi-Layer Element
Shading->Operator->UV Transform
Modeling->View->Protect Topology
Modeling->Weight Paint Channels
Parameter tab->Parameter Options(small gear icon)
Parameter tab->Filters
Parameter tab->Root dropdown menu
Genesis General tab->Smoothing
CMS
Browser->Smart Content tab(covers loading presets etc.)
.duf and .dsf formats
Geo Grafting compatability
Enter text boxes->right click Cut/Copy/Paste
View->Lock Production Frame
Motion tab->Inherit Scaling
EDITS...list was last updated 8/1/13.
Wow...what a comprehensive list. Thanks!
I am still miffed about my initial purchase of C-8.1 that the description says as below under {b}What's Included & Features (like I see that as buying the feature and not having it turned off after 30 days!) It's not even tagged as NEW.
http://www.daz3d.com/carrara-8
Vertex and Symmetrical Modeling - Streamline the modeling process in both the "Modeling" and "Assembly" rooms. Ideal for creating and editing anything from characters to vehicles and more. This feature allows users to edit both sides of a symmetrical object at the same time.
:((( SileneUK
Wow.
tbwoq, just having that list is a big help in its own... Cool, Thanks!I really enjoy your breakdown between the manuals. I now have an undying urge to print out the C6 manual! I like columns :)
Glad the list can help. :)
When the manual subject came up again, I wondered how much is currently undocumented. So I decided to create a list. Part of the goal now is to maintain the list as a reference for anyone that needs it until a new manual arrives. It's just a basic or quick veiw of the feature names(which is the most important) and an approximate location in the program, and some things can change in a beta. Hopefully it will help in searches and asking questions in the forum(s). Feel free to use the list in other forum topics, or as needed, and update.
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While I was researching the features and PDF's, I have a much better understanding of how difficult the task might be for writing(or rewriting) a 700+ page manual. If it was just adding to the existing C6 manual, which to me is the logical way, it should have been easy. But if I recall, users wanted to have examples of each feature with specific images or screenshots and maybe a link to some tutorials etc. With so much more that this would add, it might have been one reason why the manual(s) developement stalled. Also some of the features were buried in sub-menus. If it wasn't for the forums, it would not have been easy to find them.
Someone said there's a C7 manual? Can someone point me to where that is?
My thanks. :)
barring that, the most recent manual?
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/artzone/pub/software/carrara/start
http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/artzone/pub/software/carrara/start
My thanks! :)
My thanks! :)
there's a C8 ( sort of - its only 150 odd pages) manual too but darned if I can find the download link.
Anyone ???
But here's the proof !!!