Genesis - Why I hate working with it in Carrara 8 Pro
Boojum the brown bunny
Posts: 348
Genesis has been out for a long time now.. but sometimes it feels like an unfinished product, as does Daz Studio and Carrara 8 Pro. All these products were made by Daz and I always make the mistake of expecting they will all work well together, because Daz made them. But everything I do seems to take hundreds of times longer and more mental effort than it should.. and yes, this is something of a bitch and moan session.
Take today. I have an M4 character that I decide to update to be a Genesis character. Should be simple enough... Here is my workflow...
I take Generation X, load in my M4 character, save nonzero morphs as a single target. Great... All done. I load Genesis into Daz Studio and test the morph.. looks great. I exit and start Carrara 8 Pro. Load in Genesis.. search the Genesis level for what I named my character.. not there. Ok, don't panic.. try the Actor level. Nope, not there either. Close Carrara 8 Pro, go back to Daz Stuidio, maybe I didn't load it right. Nope, my morph is still there under the GenerationX folder in Daz Studio. Ok.... Lets try Poser Pro. Open Poser Pro and load Genesis. My morph is there, under the GenerationX parameter folder. Maybe I missed it in Carrara. Open Carrara and load genesis, manually search through the dozens of parameter dials. My morph isn't there.
So.. maybe the GenesisX folder level doesn't show up in Carrara for some weird reason. But Carrara can load Posers scene files. No problem. Save my Genesis character as a poser scene. Load Poser scene into Carrara.. why is it asking for the ground object? And some incredibly long and arcane geometry name for the character. Close Carrara Scene.. open scene with M4 character in it. Loads perfectly. Close scene, try to open scene with Genesis in it.. can't find any geometries. Do I really have to search my geometries folders, through thousands of geometries for this file? Nevermind. Carrara can load .duf files.
Close Poser, open Daz Studio, load Genesis, morph genesis to be my character, Save scene as Daz .duf scene. Close Daz Studio. Open Carrara again, open .duf scene in Carrara.. waiting... wait, all my morphs are gone? Why is my character back to default? Did my morphs not get saved as a scene file? Close Carrara scene, open Daz Studio, load .duf scene file I'd saved. Morphs are present and applied properly.
By now a simple update M4 character to Genesis has taken all afternoon and I STILL can't get anything usable. Why does it take so long? Why can't Carrara load Daz Scene files properly? Why can't Carrara load Genesis morphs properly when DazStudio can? If there is a problem loading morphs in a scene file, why can't Carrara say there was a problem? When you grey out the plus in Daz Studio because I can't save a Genesis Figure into a Poser Format Runtime, why don't you tell me when I mouse over it? Why does everything take LONGER.
Genesis is your figure.. Why does it work on Poser better than it does in Carrara 8.5 Pro? Why are tasks that should take minutes taking hours? I've loved Carrara for years, but every month it just seems to get more difficult to use.
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Comments
Ouch!
Yeah, I'd be a bit upset, too! Yikes!
I was thinking about Gen X too. I guess I've just decided against that - unfortunately for Dimension 3d, as Gen X probably works just fine.
I wish I could take away your pain and give you back your time. I really do like Genesis, but it certainly has its limitations. V6 is one kickin' figure - but it needs more emotion before it can replace my V4 version.
I haven't used Genesis for quite a while (says something in itself!) but when I tried again the other day, it worked fine for what I wanted. However Gnesis 2 Female was not working properly at all. I almost feel we were getting close with Genesis (2 years after it was released!) and now they introduce another figure that is incompatible with what should be Daz's premiere platform. I agree, it makes no sense that it works in Poser and not in Carrara! Very frustrating, I wish they would get their act together on this, we have been waiting too long.
Trust me, I DO like Genesis the figure. I love being able to easily conform clothing despite what weird shapes I morph the character into. I like not having my characters chest poke through the clothing because his arm reaches above his head. but it's like I get a taste of how wonderful it is, try to use it in Carrara 8.5 Beta (which I love) and just get bogged down into trying to figure out what basic things don't work. Then I look at all the repetitive things I do to GET things to work.... and how I'm spending my time. for example.
1. Why aren't Parameters either sorted alphabetically or inside of folders and alpabetical in Carrara? Load in Genesis, select the Actor level of the figure, and look at a few hundred parameters in no particular order! If you can't stick the Parameters into folders (like you do in Daz Studio) then at LEAST sort them alphabetically!
2. Why can't I get a list of nonzero parameters? Since I can't use Genx to create a full morph for use in Carrara, I'm going to have to hand enter all the parameters my M4 character has set. Why can't I open Daz Studio and get a list of non-zero parameters in text format so that I can copy and paste them into the coresponding morphs in Carrara?
3. Why don't I get an error when it can't find everything it needs inside of a .duf file? When I save a morphed genesis out of Daz Studio as a .duf scene and load it into Carrara my morphs are gone from the figure. Why don't I at least see a warning that something is wrong? This is particularly important when working with large scenes!
4. Why do I have some Daz figure parameters at the Figure Name (genesis) and others at the Actor level of the scene? For example, David 3 head is at the Genesis level. David 3 Body is at the Actor level. David 3 Head Sebastian is at the Actor level. Why do I have to look in both the Name level and the Actor level to make David???
5. Why can't I right click on something in the Smart Folder and either find out what file folder it is in on my machine or (better yet) open the source folder?
6. Why can't I right click on a Content Folder and choose to open it's source folder? Or get a folder location?
7. Why can't I zero all morphs on a figure?
8. Why can't I choose to apply visibility settings to all children of an object? I swear, if I have to manually set visibility settings on every part of every finger again to fit it in a glove (Right hand set invisible, Right thumb 1 set invisible, Right thumb 2 set invisble, Right thumb 3 set invisible, etc....) Why can't I simply click a button inside of Right hand to apply visibility settings to all children???
9. Why do Elite Shader Textures expand to every portion of a figure? Why aren't like maps only loaded once and applied to like body parts?
10. Why can't I unlock all dimensions on a conformed/attached object/prop? Why do I have to find every part that has been locked or limitted and manually change it before I can move child objects?
11. Why can't I right click on ANYTHING in the scene tree and do something with it? Copy it? Group it? Delete it? ANYTHING! Why do I have to left click on scene tree, then find what I want to do in a menu clear across the screen?
12. why can't I save my current Scene into my Scene tab? Why can't I just drag the Scene level of the tree into the Scene tab to save it? Why can I only LOAD out of my scene tab? Why can't I right click on Scene and tell it to save?
13. Why can't I save my finished render directly into my Artwork tab? why can't I just right click on the image I just rendered and tell it to go there? Or at least open that folder so I can choose where inside to save it?
That's sort of what bothers me.. So many things become repetitive and you begin thinking, aren't computers supposed to take care of repetitive tasks? Like choosing the hand and making all children invisible? Or merging the textures used on the character so that you don't have to change every bloody one? Carrara has many huge strengths... but it has some definite drawbacks despite how much I love it... and I wonder.. why doesn't it do these things?
And then there is Genesis.. a product I would love to fully utilize in Carrara but that simple becomes a brick wall when I try to work with it, particularly when I'm trying to update my existing characters to use it.
*sigh*
after being very dodgy in the past, Genesis actually behaves for me now
if
and only if
I set it up and dress it in Daz studio and save a .duf scene I then import or open.
otherwise something can go wrong at each step
autofitting, applying textures via .duf or pz2 you name it can get odd i/0 errors and stuff.
I take a gamble each time I add to it.
yet the fully set up studio .duf scene imports fine
I just tried this and I was able to find my Genx morph.
I saved the single morph (used the name "test") and loaded genesis in Carrara 8.5 pro.
I chose the Actor in the scene tab (I noticed that it looks like you can control where the morph lives in Genx--I left it at the default)
I scrolled through the parameters, but I couldn't find my "test" parm....once I entered "test" in the filter box, though it was there.
Try entering your morph name in the filter box--maybe it will work for you, too. I hope it does.
Edit: Oh, yeah--I think you have to load the Basic Male character in Carrara if you want to use M4 textures--if you use the Genesis figure it will only allow V4 textures.
In Carrara this can be found under the Animation menu, look for "Zero something or other". DAZ Studio also has commands to do this but I don't have it installed currently and don't remember where they are. I think it's the button at the upper left corner of the parameter tab that opens the menu...
I agree with most of your other points. The Carrara UI is a very mixed bag and sadly DAZ doesn't appear to have much interest in improving it.
Did you use a single morph? Or did you create a figure morph? What I'm talking about is a figure morph. Taking a bunch of settings on the character (different body builds, head styles, etc) and saving them out a s a single parameter dial that you can then rotate to change Genesis into that figure. Sort of like Anubis dial can turn Genesis into Anubis.
Boojum
Here is what I did in Gen x:
Load Figure: chose M4 cr2
Apply Pose: chose a head and body pz2
Create Single Morph
Select: Chose Transfer on for all non-zero values
Transfer controlled transforms: on
Transfer dial groups: on
Keep existing files
I clicked Transfer and left all the defaults and used a name of "test"
I didn't see an option for a Figure Morph--I did end up with a single parameter, though.
Is that helpful?
boojumbunn - That is a great list! I hope the Carrara developers will see this and use it as a checklist to fix 8.5 for its release. One thing in there that really gets me is that in DS you can get a list of non-zero morphs - but not in Carrara. With so many parameters, this is a must. If they could fix all these, we would finally have a system worth using. Oh, and auto-fit needs to be better, and have a smoothing operator like in DS too. I STILL get too many occasions where things don't fit, even when they are made for that figure!
OMG I love the DS4 smoothing modifier
Carrara developers pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese!
Spooky, we wants it now!!!
Yes, don't you just love how DAZ has moved a crucial tool from right there easy to use, to buried in a sub menu. I've griped about this for quite some time, but hey, no one listens to me. I'm just the local doom sayer so my opinion doesn't count. That is 0 pose 0 morph used to be buttons right there in the general tab.
This is a very Studio way of doing things. One of the things I hate about studio is many of the tools I need/use are buried in some submenu someplace.
Give DAZ a couple more builds of Carrara and you wont be able to tell carrara's UI from studios. And wont you just love it when 2/3 of your screen is taken up by overly large menus/sliders so your working space is so small you can't see what you are doing.
boojumbunn I like your list. Thing is some of that is already in carrara, DAZ just hid it from you.
Having the morphs in alphabetical, or even having the option to list browser folders alphabetically would be great. But much like being able to set the font scale, I don't see it happening.
All my mil3 morphs are in the actor list, but to date I have no mil4 morphs. I never have had them in genesis 1.
I agree about the invisibility settings. I don't use them often but if I want a zombie missing the biggest share of an arm, it's a PITA to set it up.
And I have griped more then once about the inability to duplicate figures; or anything in cr2. With out doing some fancy dance and jump through hoops to do it.
One of the thing I love about the old Mil4 figures/items is I can use modeling in the assembly room to fix them. But once I run some article of clothes through autofit I can't do anything with it to fix the crappy fit. And crappy is how most items fit. Do I expect a fix for this? No. There is no profit in fixes.
hope this has been helpful
As I said in the previous versions of carrara 0 morph, 0 pose where buttons in the general menu, not buried in the animation menu.
I've been working on this project for about a week and it has become abundantly clear I wont be able to use Genesis. I like the figure but autofit doesn't work worth a flip. Back to V4.
ManStan
I noticed this too a lot lately
with large breast, butt etc morphs particularly
was not as bad before, something has changed in Genesis and Carrara
I can and do fix it using matching morphs if in clothes or soft select in vertex room if not
happens with Genesis clothes too esp stiff that relies on smoothing
we need a smoothing collision modifier
on another note
opening .duf files
NEVER use Layered Image editor stuff in Carrara
yes it did load AFTER about 15 hours!!
I had to fix it all in shader room to get it to work but still trying to save fixed figure!
either save the new maps and reload I guess or do from scratch with layers
I just keep running in to issues with this new install of studio and carrara. As in I have applied the base and morphs ++ to V4 in carrara, but none of the morphs work. The weird part is they are listed alphabetically. {this one just fixed it's self, don't want to know. I knew it had fixed it's self when I loaded V4 and the morphs weren't alphabetical}.
I'm about to give up all together, this is supposed to be fun but it has gotten to where it is far more frustrating then fun. If it's not one issue it's 3 others. I seem to be consistently stymied by one issue or another. I don't know how many scenes I have had to give up on because of issues and errors.
it is getting to the point I am going to need to do a mantis bug thingy
NONE of the breasts morphs are working with Autofit in Carrara for me now.
Thanks for your answers, but you misunderstand. This isn't about can you do it, it's about how much time and exploration it takes to do it. Why are they designing things to be more difficult? There are so many simple things they could add to make life easier for people who use their product... and it is endemic. Notice how many times you mention that there is a plugin for that. So now my work flow should be:
1. Load figure
2. Morph Figure.
3. Apply props.
4. Discover something doesn't quite work right.
5. Open browser.
6. Google on problem.
7. Click on a likely link, hope it has info on a plugin for it.
8. Maybe check other websites as well.
9. Figure out a time intensive way to do something that should be simple.
10. Apply Textures.
11. Discover problem.
12. etc.
I'm sorry, but that's not right. There are certain things that everyone needs to do now and then... and to ignore the right click all together just means that they are ignoring opportunities to make things easier. Don't make things so that you have to have memorized every level of every hidden menu plus know scripting or install fan made content to do simple things.
So to answer each....
Ok, I just gave this a try... and it mostly worked! It correctly saved the objects and light in the scene, but not the position of Camera 1. for some reason, Camera 1 had a different position in the scene when I opened it by double clicking on the scene in the scene folder. But it did save my animation of the character and my scene settings. I'll have to test it with render settings and option changes to see if it includes those.. but thanks, that IS simpler! I'm not sure why you have to group everything before saving the scene rather than just dragging the scene level, but it's better than going to File save scene.
why can't I just right click on the image I just rendered and tell it to go there? but not like this
Or at least open that folder so I can choose where inside to save it? In the render room choose save and point to the artwork folder. i do it all the time and it saves video too which can be viewed from the Artwork tab
UMMmmm.. I think you mean the render directly to the drive instead of to the screen. I was wondering why, after rendering to my screen, I can't just drag the finished render into the Artwork tab. I don't want to save every render to there, just the finished render I'm happy with.
hope this has been helpful
I know what it is
SUBDIVISION
my .duf scenes, lol! see the polys!!!!