DAZ3d's new Genesis 2 female realism
SnowPheonix
Posts: 896
Speaking strictly to NEW products, I love the Genesis 2f. Combine it with Zev0's morph package and the shaping ability of this product line is amazing. The sky's the limit with what you can do... Genesis (Original) has an army of artist still selling excellent characters for that line but my experience is that you can't use characters between the two generations.
I'm looking at the new product on Daz, "Brogan"...
http://www.daz3d.com/fast-grab-3d-models/fwma-brogan
Looks brilliant. Wish I could use it on Victoria 6 but it says Genesis... Genesis I have covered but it does look like the type of character I would add to my library. Heck, the marketing feels like it screaming at me to buy it...
"a character for all who want to have a "Real Woman" in their Runtime."
Hell Yah! But then I think... Caucasion... I have a dozen Caucasian skins already for Genesis, I can still use my V4 skins too... but Genesis 2f?
I don't like the selection of characters to date and I've been saving the material skins from my V4 and Genesis characters... it's a pain because I have to do make up changes and skin changes, save it and the load it to the V6...
So... Even if I buy that brilliant new skin, I have to fiddle with it... I can't just use it. Then I remember that my G2f which is so brand new and shiny has so few options when it comes to skin colors.
Still... the end product is something beautiful and I highly recommend the Genesis 2 female... I look forward to seeing a lot more from that line...
Look, I know its still a new product and people are out there making the very thing I'm waiting for... I'm patient. Still waiting...
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Comments
I agree. G2F and V6 desperately need some decent Black African and Hispanic/Mediterannean skin tones. All the characters released to date seem to hail from Scandinavia. How about it DAZ?
The V4 for G2F - http://www.daz3d.com/victoria-4-for-genesis-2-female - will allow you to use V4 character skins with G2F.
Any character that uses V5 UVs can also be used with G2F.
I have that ... It was one of the first things I purchased after G2f. I've never found a reason to use it. Maybe I don't know how to use it.... but what I do know is that being able to save v4 character skins and load them onto a v6 bites... everytime I want to change any feature, (eye shadow, eye color or skin matte, I have to save one character on Genesis and then later load it onto V6... BORING. I do like having the ability to put my V4 clothing on G2f but for character skins, its useless as far as I can see.
I don't get why people would want to waste time fiddling with characters when you can just spend a few dollars and get something shiny and new.
Personally, I'd rather go and spend the money to buy some new characters that I can use directly on V6 with no hassles. I see using old character skins simply as a gap filler until I can purchase some good characters for G2f.
Still... hopefully somebody found your share helpful. I appreciate the thoughts.
Load Genesis 2, load V4 skin mats and change the UVmapping in the Surfaces Pane to V4 and you are done...easy when you know how which is exactly the same for Genesis 1 with the V4 shape for Genesis.
I'm glad you get it! Thanks for adding your voice of support!
Here is a trick, lot of V5 skins works perfect in V6, you just has to make sure they are in duf format, so u can browse skins in the shop and look in whats included and make sure the mats are in duf. If mats are in duf u have to do nothing, just load the texture like in V6.
For example lot of people complain there is no black skin, you can try olivia: http://www.daz3d.com/olivia-for-v5
Works perfect in V6, if u don't belive just look the render: V6 without any retouch just with olivia skin load.
GF2 is a very new figure. It will take some time to build up a large collection of NEW content for it. That is one of the reasons the Option of using the V4 Shape and Converted textures was added and why V5 textures work also. So the users of GF2 had more texture options than just the few made for GF2 and V6 so far. The content will come as time passes.
That trick works pretty good. The other thing we can do I discovered by ranting on here is that you can re-use old skins after you save them as "Material Presets".
Just load it onto your Genesis characters, save the Material presets of the character. Then open up a v6 character and merge the material presets onto the selected character.
Using old skins isn't a problem... Some of us and I'm guessing you too, just collect different skins. I've got dozens of skins and I'll buy dozens more...
I'm simply telling people in the business why I'm not buying some products and what I'm looking for in the future.... that way if people do want to get my money for their creations, they know what I'd like to see.
I'll bet your probably in that same boat.
...that's what I did, I have separate material presets saved for several of my characters saved as well as a number of the basic V4 skins I use the most.
I agree that using different makeups would be a pain, especially when there are a lot of different options which include not only facial makeup, but eye colour and nail colour, as well as you have to setup and save each style individually (and if you have a lot of V4 textures like many of us have, that would be quite an undertaking0.
Now granted, I do not have V6, as I am exclusively working with G2F base, the Head/Body morphs and ZeV0's Growing up, so for the characters I am developing at this time, different makeups are not as important
This is my Leela character built using the above, with Jamminwolf's Tindra Thompson skin map.
The whole reason I'm having a love affair with G2f is ZeV0's brilliant shaping tools and the remarkable job Daz3d did with this new female character.
(For me) In character development, I see it as two separate categories... Morphs and Skins. I can put the same skin on a thousand different shapes and it will look like a different person.
In the past, I've bought several morph packages just so I can get 'the right shape'... Is my character short or skinny, pregnant or athletic... now with Genesis 2, we have the power and we can shape any character we want and we not reliant on the morphs that come in packages. As you just demonstrated brilliantly we can form any shape but now we need that same type of technology put into the skin of the character.
I've been told in rumors that Daz3d decided not sell skins that are essentially pictures of real people stretch over skin... Maybe there previous "elite" category that tried to do this in the past wasn't profitable enough. I respect for whatever reasons.. choices have been made in the past. At the time they were right to do so but now... it's time they change and recognize that technology has leapfrogged and a good HD star model of a character is what the market wants.
Some people complained that all "I want" (as if I'm alone) are beautiful characters... Well, yeah... so what? I want my character skin to be real and its good to start with beautiful because you can always make anything ugly... beauty is something thats hard to find sometimes...
Time have changed the markets changed. A skin should look like you just took a picture of your hot neighbor and rapped it over your form in 3D.. Hollywood does it all the time in movies like Tron... It's time DAZ3D got in on it.
In the same way "Millennium environments" and "Dimension theories HDR Pro set" give us realism by placing real objects in layers, that same idea needs to translate to character skins.
Thanks for that great demonstration.. it was perfect!
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I always wondered why there are not realistic skin textures in the DAZ store. I always thought it is because the PA are just not capable or willing to work with realistic skin merchant sources.
For example you could use real photographs of people and then paint on the 3d model in applications like zbrush.
There are a merchant resource sites that sell photographs of real people that can be used to create textures for 3d models.
So this lack of realism was actually enforced by DAZ?
- - -
Pure unfounded speculation
I don't think using pictures of real people's skin is the best way to get 'realistic' skin textures. Because it would be almost impossible to light the real world model with no shadows a lot of the 'shading' will actually be shadows. Then there is the creases and folds of the skin that will produce shading artifacts. Good 3D skin should start from a basic procedural shader that adds subtle tonal shifts to the base tone. The next steps require a bit of anatomy / phsiology knowledge and observation skill by the artist to adjust light and dark, warm and cool tone values shifts of real skin. And as I said in another thread hair, moles, birthmarks etc. should be added using LIE.
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Pure unfounded speculation
Not just that...it's actually demonstrably untrue:
1. http://www.daz3d.com/3d/3d-silver-surfer/ Read all about the methods used...
(I think the same model was used for V4 Elite Marie)
2. Reby Sky: the product page states that she's "based on scan data" and "high resolution photos." If I recall correctly the photos themselves used to be for sale here.
3. Michael 5: "The figure is derived from real 3D body scans and high-resolution photographs of real human men"
4. FW Monie...just released today: "the skin was created using high quality photo references for depth and detail."
...among many examples. It's possible that there's a kernel of truth behind the rumors...perhaps for DAZ 3D Original skins created in-house, they've decided not to use photo references that are publicly available, but instead they do all the scanning and photographing themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
snowphoenix: I like your blue-skinned character...very cool! :)
Pure unfounded speculation
Not just that...it's actually demonstrably untrue:
1. http://www.daz3d.com/3d/3d-silver-surfer/ Read all about the methods used...
(I think the same model was used for V4 Elite Marie)
2. Reby Sky: the product page states that she's "based on scan data" and "high resolution photos." If I recall correctly the photos themselves used to be for sale here.
3. Michael 5: "The figure is derived from real 3D body scans and high-resolution photographs of real human men"
4. FW Monie...just released today: "the skin was created using high quality photo references for depth and detail."
...among many examples. It's possible that there's a kernel of truth behind the rumors...perhaps for DAZ 3D Original skins created in-house, they've decided not to use photo references that are publicly available, but instead they do all the scanning and photographing themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
It may depend on the meaning - I'm sure DAZ would refuse a texture set that simply painted photos onto a model, with no attempt to remove the highlights and shadows from the photographs or to clean up other artefacts or to create things like bump maps/subsurface/specular maps.. But as you say, textures that are derived from photos are very common.
Pure unfounded speculation
Not just that...it's actually demonstrably untrue:
1. http://www.daz3d.com/3d/3d-silver-surfer/ Read all about the methods used...
(I think the same model was used for V4 Elite Marie)
2. Reby Sky: the product page states that she's "based on scan data" and "high resolution photos." If I recall correctly the photos themselves used to be for sale here.
3. Michael 5: "The figure is derived from real 3D body scans and high-resolution photographs of real human men"
4. FW Monie...just released today: "the skin was created using high quality photo references for depth and detail."
...among many examples. It's possible that there's a kernel of truth behind the rumors...perhaps for DAZ 3D Original skins created in-house, they've decided not to use photo references that are publicly available, but instead they do all the scanning and photographing themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
I mentioned the elite as being the last time DAZ3d used the process for the Victoria line... but its been a long time since V4.2 was released.. in technological terms she's a dinosaur and the skins are not readily usable with Gen 2f. Besides... I think they used ugly models to be politically correct... I'd like to see beautiful ones. Maybe the problem is that the company is too worried about image... which I can appreciate but lets face it.. all the models start out NUDE... get comfortable with it DAZ.. thats what you have to do.
Michael 5 is probably the best looking character DAZ3d offers.. it offers realism and for the most part looks great in my renders... no complaints BUT... we aren't talking about male characters which I personally have found that DAZ3d has a great number of excellent skins for... (Hmmmm)
Other than the elite series, you've mentioned 2 of the most unrealistic looking shaped characters in the DAZ3d catalog and like you, I saw FW Monie and thought the skin looked great but I'm not going to waste a dime on it because I have no desire to waste my time with cartoon shaped characters.
Hey DAZ.. FOCUS.
I don't get it... Girl 6 is such a waste of time (to me) and what a shame that DAZ3d seems to be all over the place with the character shapes being offered with Genesis 2f.. I mean first they wisely come out with Victoria 6 but they didn't focus on the most popular product line DAZ3d has ever offered. Instead they followed up with more character lines like GIA and Girl 6... Interesting enough... they are all characters that are easily replicated using ZeV0's morph packages... so why the hell are they wasting time with morphs when they should be focused on skins they all there new product lines sorely need?
Anyways... I get that other people will appreciate Girl 6 and its great that they used a real skin but it lacks all the characteristics that another person so cleverly elaborated when he mentioned things like tan lines and differences in skin tones..
It doesn't matter if you based the initial skin on a real human if you take all the details out by taking samples and tiling them... You simply can't do that with skin because different areas of the body are going to have different coloration... In the end, I see a horrible looking skin that looks entirely fake and great if you want to make cartoons but thats not what most of us want...
ARE YOU LISTENING DAZ?
I hope that people in the community start to listen more and stop telling customers excuses as to why something hasn't been done.
WE WANT REALISM.
I really hope that DAZ can find some Zbrush artists who will make some realistic character textures.
Have a look what others are doing:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc-top-row-gallery.php
THANK GOD! I'm glad somebody gets it... You and me agree on every point you made.
ARE YOU LISTENING DAZ3D?
I'm not alone on this....
Greetings,
On the contrary, I explicitly chose not to purchase a character (for Dawn, in this case) that otherwise looked very good, because it had VERY visible tan lines. If those tan-lines conflicted with outfits that I'm going to put on a character, it detracts from the image I'm putting together. I want base skins that I can add to, not that conflict with the aspects of the scene I'm putting together.
That's why stuff like tan lines, moles, extreme skin distortions, birthmarks, etc., etc., should be added in LIE or the equivalent. The core skins SHOULD be flawless, or as near to it as possible, so that the flaws can be added AS NEEDED and differently for each illustrator's need, and not be stuck with just one person's flaws.
They do, and continue to, use real skins. But they are cleaned-up skins, which is appropriate for what they're selling. A *base* for you to build on. Is it inconceivable to you that other folks might not want to have characters with exactly the same set of imperfections as everyone else is using? The fact that people (myself included, laziness acknowledged) render the characters without tweaking the surfaces to include imperfections is the fault of those doing the rendering, not the ones selling the product.
Or to put it another way, you're asking the manufacturer of canvases to add cracks and chips because cracks and chips make the oil paintings look more authentic.
-- Morgan
p.s. Wanna make a buck? :) Build a LIE preset set for folks to add one-click distortions, skin tone changes, etc., to existing characters. Darken one arm (trucker's tan, don't forget to do one for each arm for folks who drive on different sides!), add different shapes of skin-lightening for tan-lines, moles, subtle old scars, etc... I bet you'll sell a lot of it, as a package, and everybody can use them differently, and have subtly or significantly different characters, and everybody wins! Heck, I'd probably even buy it.
One of the key of realism is light and is where most people fail, so there is no point investing great amounts of time to make a super real skin when people will set up some random lights and make crapy renders. And better not talk about surfaces...
Besides there is also deadlines, make a good skin is lot of work and i suppose daz artists has deadlines, is like V6 will be released and the skin should be finished. Someone mentioned Danae, but danae realeases the skin whenever she wants, so can work lot of time on a skin. I think there are 2 types of artists ones that makes this as a hobby and make some money and others that live from this, so its their work.
Said this if something we can rant is that still I don't understand why daz don't realease a good setup lights bundle, cos most that are sold are crap, well is more than most has to be tweaked. At least when they release a figure, they could include the light setup of the promos, but i relly would like something better.
...for the very same reasons as Cypherfox mentions I'd like it if eyebrows were not always part of the facial skin map. For example, currently working on a character who has white hair. but the eyebrows that are part of the skin texture I am using are reddish brown. Since they are painted on, there is no way to change them in a 2D app using a colour picker/hue/value adjustment without affecting the surrounding skin colour (unless one does it almost pixel by pixel).
Greetings,
:+1:! My partner always nit-picks about the eyebrows being off-color, quite reasonably, and I'd love it if they were add-ons.I imagine it's hard to get the original models (in cases where models are involved) to shave their eyebrows off for a single photo shoot, though. :)
-- Morgan
Clearly you have loads of time to sit around and spend years retouching every render you make... It sounds like you hate realistic looking characters... why else would you bother to refute my new product request? I mean... that is all I'm asking for is ready made characters that I can load and use that look realistic.
I buy many skins and I bet you do too. I'd like to have a set of realistic skins that match several different skin colors. In other words, I don't want to see ONE new skin, I want to see several new skins that have a range of variations. It's a lot easier to take away details off the character if you want cartoons... in fact if you go and search DAZ3D right now they already have hundreds of skins that already suite your purpose.
I'm asking for new products.
While I agree with you about EXTREME skin distortions, I'm speaking about everyday, normal looking skin... something that for the Genesis 2f range doesn't exist. You want your bland skin with no distortions I would recommend every skin that DAZ3d is currently offering... You already have what you want... now step back and let them make something for the rest of us who don't want to spend all day adding regular everyday details that should already be in a realistic looking character.
For you, I would highly recommend Candace, Neomi and Sian by FWArt or Ariadne, Nyssa, Norma... heck all the skins currently on offer by Daz3d.. plenty of choices for you. I already own them all and several others... none of them do the trick for me.
I don't know why you would act like one skin should serve all purposes. Why bother naming them if that's the case?
Your talking to fellow users, posting your requests for future products in a open USER forum is only going to be seen by fellow users 90% of the time. Those other users have the right to support your opinion or to voice one of their own.
These Forums are FOR the users and ran by the users they are not a direct link to the Published Artist that make the content (textures) or a direct link to the DAZ 3D staff. They both MIGHT read some of the forums but do not HUNT down and read every thread posted to the forums.
Please allow other users to voice their view as freely as all users are allowed to. Name calling is NOT allowed by the DAZ 3D TOS.
Greetings,
I'm telling you that you can do it with the products that already exist. They aren't as cartoony as you like to pretend; YOU could spend an hour tweaking a skin set and have everything you're asking for, all done. And it would be your character, and that's how it should be.
I'm also making it clear that I wouldn't buy that product, and why. Not because I just do cartoon renders, thank you for strawman-ing that nonsense, but because what you're describing runs counter to the idea of a base to build on, which is what I look for.
But most importantly, I'm trying to explain that you have the power to do what you're asking someone else to do for you. Use that power.
-- Morgan
"On the contrary"...
Still, we are all passionate about our individual position and it almost sounds like some people are saying "Don't make his request" because I don't want it... when they start off saying that they don't like what you have asked for. It shouldn't matter.
There is room for every point of view.. Nobody says we have to agree on anything and to try and force artist to do that means to try and restrict artistic license... something that would be stupid of what is essentially an artist supply company.
I do agree that we should treat each other with respect and I don't believe this conversation has sunk to any name calling... we just disagree and I think he should just go put in his own request and continue to make his pictures the way he wants to instead of maybe trying to tell me what I can ask for.
I'm not going to regret wanting the most realistic skins I can find or prodding people in the market place to deliver up a product I want to buy in a way that I prefer.
The idea behind capitalism is that you pay other people to do work you don't want to do yourself. I want things simplified. I don't want to waste time 'tweaking'. I want instant results and while you might not like that, we don't have to agree. Please continue to make your pictures in a manner that you enjoy and I'll do things my way.
Look for things you want but kindly remember that I don't have to want the same things. Stop looking for somebody to argue with and look for what you do want. Take care.
...or are unable to due to the lack of tools required to properly handle the task.
To fix the eyebrow situation I mentioned about would require a software tool that is much more precise than GIMP or PSP (without having to do it pixel by pixel). It would require the ability to select just that part of the map, lift it into a separate layer so as to allow one to make the necessary colour change then merge the layer back on the original map. Unfortunately to be that exacting would probably require a programme that would be prohibitively expensive for most of us here.
Art is subjective, how can anyone KNOW what you would think is perfect. And Your Perfect might be WRONG for the next user. 3D takes user input always has and probably always will. Good luck in your quest.
As long as the thread stays civil I see no reason to do more than check it for TOS reasons from this point on.