Looking for Miku Miku Dance enthusiasts that like using DAZ as an MMD platform
kwannie
Posts: 865
I have been working with DAZ and Poser on and off for years, but as just to tinker with and never really found a practical way to use them. One day I came across an MMD video while searching for 3D animation samples on YT. My jaw dropped. I then discovered that MMD was a whole world in itself with asset sharing that is has no equal in the CGI community. Almost every character, stage(scenery) motion, camera and FX can be downloaded from somewhere. I love using Face gen and DS to recreate performances of vintage singers that I found a motion for in the MMD community. Almost every new song that comes out is made into a motion that can be converted into FBX or BVH and applied to characters in DS. I've been doing it for a few years now. I have learned a lot of tricks but want to share ideas with others interested in MMD. I have been able to covert motions, stages and clothing to use in DS but honestly I still buy all kinds of assets here to use with MMD scenes. Is there anybody else out there who actively enjoys using DS as you MMD platform? Please Please let me know................Thanks!!!!!
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I've heard of MMD but never looked into it. I'd be interested if you would like to show some examples of what it can do in conjunction with DAZ Studio and DAZ content.
marble I have a few videos I made, but I don't have a way to upload here and and I don't subscribe to any hosting sites but here is a YT link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9teApj0rsc
Also here are a few screen caps frm my vids. All of these are taken from full animations and some have the MMD stage that I converted and imported.
Like I said I have been learning the process for a while but I would like to hear from a few folks that may know how to enhance assets inside of DS. Atmospheric lighting would be huge if the render time puzzle could be solved.
Thanks for the YouTube link - very impressive. Unfortunately, this line in your comments automatically rules out that workflow for me:
Maya is far out of reach for me. I can just about afford Blender ;)
I'd love to hear more about how this works! I kind of skipped over MMD and straight into Daz when I started actually working with 3D, but watching videos people made was one of my first introductions to the idea that 3D could be accessible to someone like me.
Like marble said, Maya is pretty far out of my price range if it's an integral part of the workflow, but I'd still like to learn about it. I feel like there are also a lot of MMD users who'd enjoy Daz--I see people working hard on their character models and taking screenshots of them in different outfits and stuff to post on DeviantArt.
Oh I am with you guys on that I can't afford MAYA either. You do need to purchase 3DXchange to convert FBX into BVH for use in DAZ but I think you can find it on sale from time to time. There is a free script available to convert VMD (motion files) into FBX. The PMX editor which is how MMD assets are converted to OBJ. files is also free. But the avilability of motions from dance to walk cycles to sport motions ( golf bowling martial arts...) and even memes is simply unlimited. There are thousands of motions available. MMD is a great platform for toons and low poly assets but bringing it in to DAz really opens up amazing possibilities. That is why I want to share info within DAZ so that I can find more creative ideas to merge the strengths of both platforms. Character custimization in DAZ is so much better than the process in MMD. Stages from MMD are really cool but most are too low poly unless you specifically doing a toon scheme. The other thing is that most MMD assets are available in the Japanese only, it would be great to find a few here that like both platforms that can explain things I have never been able to interpret on my own.
and oh boy does 3DXchange hate the kanji, Carrara actually loads it not that I can read it but iClone is all question marks!
Hey Wendy, How are you! Do you mean the bone names? I use the "Pmx2Fbx with Batch Files" script to convert VMD into FBX. You can also convert a model to FBX without motion the go into 3DXchange an create a non-standard character profile. Then you can inport the FBX with the motion and convert it to iclone motion. Then you can use a DAZ character FBX in 3DXchange to convert to a BVH which of course can be imported into DAZ.
a lot of them seem to have kanji bone names and the two ways I convert them brings that over one method converts to collada the other to duf
I have a Blender addon too and that does it also IIRC
it entirely depends on the model
Well using the Pmx2Fbx with Batch Files makes it super easy. All you need to do is drop your MMD model (PMX model) in the batch file text and literally rename it model then run the without motion script and it creates an FBX named model. Then you can import it into 3DXchange. I have also used just the FBX strait from the script into Ikinema Web Animate.
thanks I will try it
I really like the cloth and hair simulations - well done.
I also do not have Maya, but have iClone 7 Pipeline with 3DXchange and Character Creator 3.
Will be interesting to test the motions from MMD.
Artini, I use VWD (Virtual World Dynamics) for cloth and hair and works amazing. I think its still under $50. As a mater of fact I get the same results that you saw in the video and did not spend a fortune at all. #DXchange was the biggest expense. I just need to share ideas on putting everything together in DAZ. Workflow suggestions for creating complex scenes. and ways to get FX into DAZ.Otherwise I can definately help with the basics of MMD conversion.
Do you know if VWD still works in Daz Studio 4.11 and 4.12 beta?
I have bought VWD a long time ago, but have not used it at all, because of dForce arrival.
I actually came across DAZ when researching MMD in 2016. Vocaloid and MMD really piqued my interest
Totally failed to get it to run usably in Wine (or the MMD replacement, MMM at all).
No great loss, I suspect my musical talent stats are even lower than my mathematical ability.
I have a small collection of MMD (and some XNALARA) resources on an HDD somewhere I've not had a chance to look at since I took up Daz Studio.
It was my assumption all the really polished music vid animations were finished in Blender (or similar) much like most the XNALARA pics were posed in that s/w but rendered in something else. i think there was/is a plugin for blender for MMD formats.
I wonder if there's a workflow to convert formats with outlaying money on a tool - at least until I could be certain it's something I'm likely to get value out of.
For those that don't know, MMD users make up a massive community - it completely dwarfs DAZ and Poser user base combined probably by 100x. Many videos have tens of millons of views just on English youtube - that doesn't even count the Asian web equivalents like weibo, nicovideo. The majority of users originate from Asian countries such as Japan, S.Korea, China
Most of the MMD models are lower poly, have lower quality textures - not the same quality as typical DS assets . If you're a DS user you probably will not be interested in the models unless there is some specific reason (some specialized character designs and garments) . Or if you are willing to do some work to modify and retexture (you'd have to anyways if using DS IRAY or 3DL)
DS users would probably be more interested in motions . As mentioned above, most motions are dances, but chances are you can find anything if you look hard enough. But it can be quite difficult to find assets for English users - and Google translate doesn't always work perfectly . Some assets are buried deeply and have passwords, it's like some massive Easter egg hunt... not fun at all :(
However - It's quite difficult to transfer motions over to say, a G1/2/3/8 skeleton cleanly . Often there are problems. There are several different methods (some detailed on this forum) dealing with that. The PMX2FBX method mentioned above is probably the best one overall. But you absolutely need retargetting software such as iclone 3dx, motionbuilder, webanimate . And even with those, the motions require a lot of work to clean up. Most MMD models are anime stylized - skinny , with different bones and proportions - very different that the "muscular Michael" or "voluptuous Victoria". Beacuse of the large biomechanical differences, there are often extra problems that require attention
Blender has some MMD addons mentioned above, and you can import MMD models and VMD motions directly into blender. However, transferring them to a different model such as G1/2/3/8 cleanly within blender is still problematic . It doesn't have great retargetting tools yet (or maybe there is some 3rd party addon from the market I'm not aware of) . And getting from blender back into DS with rig and keys is problematic (and why would you want to do that? Proper HD, proper subd, JCM's - some methods cover one, but not all, you need to bring it back into DS to get everything)
There were some threads on breast jiggle. MMD has bullet physics since basically forever. PMX bases that have physics enabled, will calculate breast parameter. Because G3F/G8F have the same breast rigging (L/R Pectoral bone), you can just copy the curves over or adjust them for stronger/weaker effect . Same with any other physics enabled PMX rigged parts, such as clothing, hair etc....It's not as good as a true softbody rig - it does not calculate collisions or deformations, but it's decent, free and fast
Some of the motion tracers are quite talented (or so dedicated that they must spend months/years on a single song.) But some motions are just terrible, so YMMV. Motion tracing in MMD typically involves placing a dance choreography video on a plane and manually animating
You have to be careful with the usage and readme . Some of the authors place restrictions on certain assets and motions eg. that they cannot be used outside of MMD environment for example (ie. they don't want you using it in DS, or blender for whatever reason) , or for R18/adult purposes, or commercial usage
Yes indeed, I was asking questions on those threads too. Is there some information on how to use the soft-body physics on a Genesis (3/8) figure, animate it and bring it back for rendering (or send it to Blender)?
https://www.deviantart.com/dzonatan/gallery/
Not really using MMD motions as much as using hair props to complement Sakura 8's poor selection of anime hair.
You intrigue me with the motion transfer from MMD to Daz. I recall reading a threat, downloading some scripts and even seeing some tutorial on cgpeers.
Would like to see a detailed tutorial about your workflow so I could put some animation on my girls one day.
About breast physics.
The best solution I can think of is using Dynamic Bones in Unity and rendering it there via Octane Render which is another iray renderer going by a different name.
I'm not quite sure what you're asking?
The point about the MMD physics is if you're transferring a MMD/VMD motion , it can have physics too as a side benefit if you use a PMX base with physics - and it's usable on G3/G8 .
MMD breast physics is based on bones - that's what makes it "transferrable" to other models with breast bones such as G3/G8 ( or other models.) . The animation is driving the physics calculations . You just copy/paste the x,y,z rotation keys to the L/R Pectoral x,y,z rotation on the G3/G8 model. And it doesn't have to be breast either; hair, garments etc.. can be prepared with physics - and they can be applied to other models like G3/G8 if those accessory structures have matching bones
But if it's your own motion, you'd have to convert it to VMD (go the other way) to apply it through MMD and a PMX target, then the same thing with copying the L/R pectoral keys. There are BVH to VMD converter scripts - but they have similar issues too - the conversions aren't always clean or perfect. But that workflow seems convoluted and way too many steps, not a really user friendly way of doing it. For DS, the easiest way for jiggle with fast, decent results is still the 4.10 freebie script .
But MMD physics is quick/rudimentary compared to full soft body rig or physics in other programs . For example , you will often see geometry penetrations with MMD physics (eg hair goes through hand, hand goes through breast instead of deforming properly) - because it doesn't calculate vertex to vertex interactions accurately.
Spring bones really
iClone has that too and it exports
Wow, nice input on this thread guys! I love getting a different perspective. I have to say though pdr0 everything you said is spot on, however I have been able to get very clean results on on my conversions to each DAZ generation. I had to learn the hard way but one thing I discovered was that using the Teto TDA model as the base PMX yeilded the most accurate results in 3DXchange. I use a free script called "Pmx2Fbx with Batch Files" to attain an FBX with motion from the combination of the PMX and VMD files placed in the batch folder with the script. One thing I discovered was that importing the created FBX int Ikinema Web Animate and simply exporting it back out some how frees the root bone so when I import it into 3DXchange I don't get the legs flayling about and the motion is very stable. After I create a BVH and import it into DAZ I make sure to turn off limits and unlock nodes both the base nodes and pose nodes (Edit, Figure,Lock menus). This generally eleminates all feet sliding and makes motion as smooth as in MMD.
Artini i found the the step by step instructions here:
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/56420/share-solution-how-to-convert-mmd-s-motion-data-into-ds#latest
He also made a MMD script that can export the facial data into DUF files for G1 and mcasual made a script that can transfer the facial morphs from G1 to G2 G3 and G8.
As far as the breast physics go as pdr0 suggested you can use 3DXchange to map the G3 or G8 because the bone movement is imorted in with the FBX. I usully just use the Breast Jig script I baught from another site. VWD can also do breast and glute physics but there is a learning curve and yes it does work in DS 4.11 and 4.12 there is actually a version 2 out now.
BTW way pdr0 I do have an interest inimporting a few of the MMD cloting items in and I attempted by converting triangular to quads in blender and import as an OBJ into DAZ used the transfer utility ( very slopilly I might add) and the made it SubD. there are some faces that have rounded corners in within the mesh now and the texture has gaps in it after converting. Anywhere to get tips on converting MMD clothes and hair?
I'm not talking massive issues like about legs/hands flying around, massive skating across the screen
I'm talking about typical problems in the motion, such as foot sliding a bit, foot going through floor a bit - looks like spongy floor - that aren't in the PMX when VMD is applied in MMD. Other occasional twist issues, gimbal lock . You can get these with mocap too... but VMD sourced motions - even high quality ones - always need even more work and always have more problems than typical decent quality mocap.
I don't mean to be negative , but you can see those problems in your youtube video - but maybe the original motion had those problems too ?
Or maybe the bases I used were not ideal, or maybe my pmx2fbx version is different. Or maybe 3DX does a better job for this task than motionbuilder. Do you have a link to the "Teto TDA" base ? or the "Pmx2Fbx with Batch Files" ? Thanks in advance
I use motionbuilder, so the root is usually empty when bringing back into DS . However, note that an empty root will cause problems in DS for characters that have the scale parameter not at 100% (smaller or larger characters than don't have ERC freeze) . The translation will be off, and you will not have perfection motion matching what was in the retargetting software (ie. foot sliding again). The workaround is actually to place the transforms into the root, or ERC freeze everything (bake the character) before retargetting, so the scale value is 100% in DS
Not sure, I havent tried with MMD cloth/hair - but I would assume it's the same as any clothing from other sources
Actually, pdr0 what are the rules with sharing that kind of thing? I could just attach the files here if its legal. I got the Pmx2Fbx with Batch Files from You Tube and Teto is an easy search for MMD models. I used one with a bikini or some minimal clothes so I didn't have extra bones to fight with in the 3DXchange non standard character process. I gotta say though, the results I have been getting are very close the original motion. Some motions like you said are just quirky, for some reason I do get an issue when converting a few motions to G8 with the the feet raising up if the figure bends at the waist. The Dive to Blue motion does that at the beginning of the motion. and the lead singer in the Oh My Juliet motion does a bit too. But, I the issues with limb adjustments are fairly easy to overcome with the offset function in Aniblock, I usually convert all motions to Aniblocks.
I can probably find them, don't worry about it
pmx2fbx is probably the same - there are a few newer versions over the years, but the converions are basically the same
But for pmx bases - People do so many mods , some fix little things, some fix broken physics . There are so many different versions. I don't think it really matter, except that some VMD's have specific bones in the readme. TDA bases cover most of them
I prefer minimal bases - no clothing bases, no hair, face but no head . Very low poly, low size - because I'm only using it for transfering motion in this scenario
But you can tell, looking at a model with VMD applied in MMD, vs the pmx2fbx FBX version, there are already differences. Sure, the motion is "fairly" clean (especially compared to other VMD conversion methods) but those minor difference amplify into bigger problems when you retarget to another character. My point is it's not quite as good as the original motion - that FBX conversion is never perfect (butaixianran who wrote that guide you linked to said as much) - and often there are all sorts of little problems that need to be fixed. But maybe the pmx base you are using works better for G8 targets, maybe 3dx works better, maybe the pmx2fbx version is different, not sure ... but I'm willing to investigate
Those major issues you're talking about can be other things. Some people forget to unlock nodes or rotations off for example. But there was a change in the G8 base from release time and later on , not sure when exactly. Originally nodes were locked back when G8 was released . If you update your G8 essentials, the model now comes with unlocked nodes when you load G8.
Some people were having major motion issues like arms flying, etc... Before, the X,Y,Z rotation could be applied to the shoulder if unlocked, but the weight mapping would be slightly different than if you used the twist bone properly (if you solve the motion with locks on, the x rotation gets shoved into the twist bone - and it looks better because of the weight mapping) . It's different now, that sometimes a BVH or FBX or older working pose preset won't apply properly . It has to do with one of the channels not pasting properly, perhaps from a naming change in one of the channels. If you notice way off motion, like flying arms, check the x,y,z values (twist, front-back, bend)
pdr0
I attached a sample conversion BVH for G8. The motion is from On The Rocks. I got it from Flying Spirits on DA on of the files linked actually has the model you have to use for his Project Diva Motions.
https://www.deviantart.com/flyingspirits-p/journal/Project-Diva-Motion-Convert-MMD-Downloads-798970572
https://sta.sh/21t93was5yjz
All I do is turn off limits and unlock nodes when I import the BVH. I actually have the facial DUF too but I figured I'd just give you a sample of how the motion came out.
Tested it in Daz and it works fine.
Exported it to Maya via FBX in order to turn it into Alembic and see if it will get to Marvelous Designer for cloth simulation.
Over all I like where this is going.
Do you plan to make a video tutorial from raw vwd files to Genesis 8 including mouth animation? Willing to pay good money if you willing.
EDIT: Working fine in MD. I really like where this is going.
I've used MMD on an off for a while (though it has been several years since I messed with it). It is probably still installed on one of my old computers. The last thing I tried to do with MMD was try to set up motion capture to translate my sexy dance skills to Miku using one of those motion tracking things from a video game. I failed miserably. I couldn't get anything to work. I don't think I've touched MMD (or even Vocaloid) sense.
I got busy or something.
Thanks kwannie,
It's smooth, none of the major issues like joint popping or feet sliding, floating or going through floor .
Some digits look slightly off but lets ignore that for now
The main issue here is the twist values (x-rotation) are not applied correctly - this leads to slightly off motion, weight mapping issues and ugly joint deformations.
eg.
frame 0000
frame 0234
Click on , say Right Shoulder Bend, or Right Shoulder Twist open up the parameters. Look at the twist parameter as you scrub through the timeline, it's zeroed out . Same with the thigh twists . They are actually applied (if they weren't applied, the motion would be way off)
On the initial G8 version (intial G8 essentials release) , the values were displayed in the parameters, but you still get the deformation issue, unless the twist (x-rot) is applied to the actual twist bone
I made sure the G8 base wasn't "contaminated" - "currently used" is empty in the parameters tab
There might be some differences in the DS version, or G8 essentials version . Can you compare those same frames 0000, 0234 for the deformation issues ? There are other frames, but I just chose a couple at random (where I could angle the camera so Richard won't slap me
). For your sample BVH - I selected children, unlocked nodes and rotation limits off
This dance example doesn't have large rotations (the bends are minimal) - the more complex the motion, the larger the rotation values, the more problems you will see if the twist isn't properly applied
The slightly off motion has implications - say you were reaching to grab a microphone from a stand - it would no longer grab correctly, it would be off slightly. If you were shaking another characters hand - it would be off slightly
This does not only apply to MMD VMD transfers - it's applicable to DS in general, all animation, all motions ,all sources , mixamo, carnigie hall, unity, unreal etc... To illustrate the issue better, here is an animated gif (motion not from a MMD transfer, but you can see this with a VMD transfer too and in your BVH). Notice the hands/arms are roughly correct position, but slightly off. Also notice the ugly skin deformations. In DS, that's what the twist bones are for - weight mapping
pdr0, I love your depth of knowledge, I hope you continue to throw out tid bits of information. LOL, I was surprised that you actually were able to show your samples with a nude model and get away with it, but I mean after all, it's clinical nudity. I do often see the issue with the twist bones in the conversions, so is there anything that can be done? I know the TDA modele has twist bones and G3/G8 do as well so I wonder if they could be mapped in 3DXchange. I notice sometimes when the character is suppose to clap the hands don't actually come together fully. Obviously there are the pass through issues as well ( hands passing through the body) because of the figure size deviations. As you could see though the conversion does yeild at least a 90% solution bringing in the amazing MMD motions into DAZ. Generally doing animations is forgiving of minor flaws since the character is moving and such flaws go unnoticed by most veiwers. At least I was able to get rid of that stupid feet sliding. I have also had pretty good success using a high heel offset in a subtract in aniMate2 (high heels alway make things squirrely).
I do need help with converting some clothing items only available in MMD do you know how to adjust the texturing once an item is converted to quads? I'm sure it can be done in Blender which is where I am converting to quads also.I literally have gigs and gigs of MMD vmd files stages clothing and charcters some of which I have already gotten into DAZ . Three of the pics I included above have stages the I imported from MMD by just exporting from PMX editor in OBJ format. Low poly but some look great for the purpose required. If I could get as many tips as people are willing to share about converting and using MMD assets in DAZ I'll be a happy camper. I have other motions I can share if it would help assess better motion solutions.
Also, I have used many tutorials from Dreamlight to get the rendering times down within DAZ since most MMD animations are into the 8000 plus frames range, but I always would love to hear more tips on being able to render MMD style scenes with all of the complex assets in the scene simultaneously. I'm sure compositing is probably the way to do it but love to hear more ideas.
Thanks!!!
Wow ... 8000+ frames! I doubt I have enough years left in me to wait for that render. This is exactly why I've been looking at Blender and Eevee but that's a whole new learning curve in itself. Judging by the variety of software being discussed in this thread, yet again I fear I am running out of years. So much to learn!
chaynawolfsmoon, I'm all about sexy moves, LOL. I have actually used the mocap feature in MMD anf it has the same short commings that most free mocap platforms have, you can't turn around and the ground pane is not consistant. The only way to combat that that I know of is to use a multiple camera arrangement to combine the different angles into one motion. I have use IPI with fantastic results only problem is to need to run on two rather beefy computers simultaniously , which I have but most peple don't. I have also used Brekel which yeilds a very stable mocap but does not have multiple camera capability so, no turning in this one. I have seen on one of the MMD forums a new project for what they a calling "Pose Estimation" which is software that can process recorded video and identify the skeletal figures in the video. I was thinking about hitting up mcasual to see if he knows anything about that because he can incorporate almost everything into DAZ. I would love to be able to get some of the motions that many of the MMD creators keep under such tight lock and key. ( like the song trouble maker.......Very sexy duet motion). But even utility motions like ambient moves or putting on or taking off a jacket, or even putting on or taking off shoes or a hat (you know how hard that is to animate??....lol) If you could just get the motions off a recorded video my gosh you could animate anything.