Basic Question Re Duplicating Objects
simon.fex_03751fa4a4
Posts: 20
So I've been trying to comprehend Carrara a little bit more, went through all the Infinite Skills tuts and so forth, but I've noticed something odd that I feel is probably, hopefully, something easy I'm just not aware of. Some objects will duplicate, some won't. For example, Stonemason's Urban Future 2 will duplicate any of its objects, but Urban Future 1 won't, and the options are greyed out in the Edit menu. Same thing for pretty much most of 3-D-C's sets, they just refuse to be duplicated, and I certainly don't want to drag multiple actual objects into the scene just to duplicate buildings, etc, anyone know a trick or commonality regarding this? Thanks in advance guys.
Oh, this is realizing Poser content will have its issues in Carrara, but agaIn, some of Stonemason's will, some won't, but same author, and most stuff will but then some just won't...just wondering if someone knows a way to get around that. thanks again
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If the Poser style item is rigged, then you cannot duplicate it. Most likely this is the case.
You have two options. Fenric has a plugin allows you to duplicate rigged items. All his stuff is reasonably priced and his support is top notch. I don't recall the name of the plugin.
The free way is to use a replicator.You could load a couple of the buildings in your scene, and add them to a replicator. The grid size should be the same size as the building's footprint. Also the more types of buildings, the more random the distribution of those buildings. Just try and make sure they have the same size, or nearly the same size base.
I forgot a third way. That would be to import the object file instead. Don't know the best settings for that as I rarely do it.
ahh... yes, thank you, I actually am a recent fan of Fenric's. Just bought his Shader Doctor plug and it's pretty amazing. I'll check into that first, but you're right, replicating would be one way to go but I don't necessarily want them in a grid format, and a little more free form. At any rate, thanks again for the quick reply, I appreciate it!
Hi,
the Fenric plug is there :
http://www.daz3d.com/posing-pack-3
Very useful
Well, another really fast solution that I've been using a lot is to use the replicator, set it to just make 1, and click on "Create" which adds a second one to my scene that I can do anything I want with. I leave the used replicator in my scene for further use later on, if I feel like it, and drag my original back out of it. Then I also drag the new copy out of the new group that it's been place into. This way, if I know that I need three of something, I can replicate three and click "Create".
Good idea Dart !
I've try it and it's work. But you must give a new name to it and conform all clothings
Thank you :)
Daft question.. do replicated items, like trees and rocks, etc (not rigged items) take up less file size than duplicated ones? Thanks, :) SileneUK
Well, got the Fenric plug - Poser Pack 3, and it worked like a charm, but I'm also intrigued by Dart's replicator idea, so I might mess around with that as well, but thanks to all, Fenric's plugs are pretty great I gotta say, plus you get a bunch of other stuff, Unlock Figure, Figure Visibility, Rotate controls... I'm a happy camper... until my next question, lol... thanks again all!
to laurenwbr's question... both the replicator method and fenric's plug create duplicate real instances, i.e., the object is duplicated, increasing overhead on the render... so on the one hand, while it's still a plus to be able to duplicate them at all, I was looking for a way to just create instances, since, as you know, some of those sets are complex and I'm doing animation, so I guess my next (last?) question would be, if this is related to the Poser rigging, and since you can rig, is this to say that it's impossible to "unrig" the model somehow? Could you do it in Poser maybe? If I have to accept that it just can't be done, then I'll just rethink what I'm trying to do, but that would be a significant bonus, thanks again to all :-1
You can import the .obj file and that should leave the rigging out of the equation.
What I would do, is open your model as normally would. Select the model in the hierarchy, click the shading tab and drag and drop the multi-colored ball to some directory in your Shader Browser (up to you). Then delete the building and find the buildings' .obj file. Should be in the runtime's geometry folder somewhere. Import the .obj file, making sure that you preserve skinning and morphs. If the textures don't load, then select the imported .obj file in the instances pane and then the shader tab. Drag and drop the shader you saved earlier onto the multi-colored ball and it should load all the proper textures.
I know it seems kind of round-about. There used to be another way from directly within Carrara, but I recall reading in a post some time back, that the workaround was removed in C8.5. I'll explain the method below:
If you wish to attempt it, you may be able to unlock the figure, by selecting the figure in the assembly room, and under the Edit menu, choose smooth objects. A dialogue will come up with options, but they're not really important, just click okay. In past versions of Carrara, you would now be able to go to the Animation Menu and choose the detach skeleton option. Once that is done, you would either delete the stuff below model in the hierarchy or drag the model out of the hierarchy, then delete. You should, in theory be able to duplicate the model. I had some stability issues in the past, so I would recommend saving the scene after you detach skeleton, closing the scene (and possibly quitting Carrara, then relaunching Carrara) and reopening the scene before you mess with the hierarchy.
When you duplicate a regular master object in Carrara, the duplicates become instances of that master. So if you change something in the master mesh shape the duplicates are also updated.
In the case of a rigged object,(Poser, Studio or Carrara), the bones now have influence on the mesh and some commands like 'Duplicate' are purposely greyed out to avoid conflicts with the mesh and/or animation. This is one reason you have to create another separate import rigged object such as saving a group hierarchy(figure like V4) to the browser. Fenrics plug-in (iirc) has a feature to automate the browser import/export process.
Urban Future 1 may have a Poser/Studio or other import format option causing Carrara to grey out the 'Duplicate' option. Some formats or figures appear to be locked for features, but this is usually just for compatability. What EP said about using .obj imports(etc.) and converting smoothing should work for static objects/buildings as long as they don't need those special format features.
Using a replicators 'Create' button will make a real instance, and Edit->Smooth Objects in assemble will open the model mesh to Carrara's native format, but in those processes some Poser import features, like conforming clothing, will no longer function.
-laurenwbr.
In tests, the file size didn't change much using multiple replicated objects. Using the replicators 'Create' real instances button does increase file sizes on my system though.
EDIT:rereading question,..Yes. Duplicated objects take more file space than replicated objects.
OK, I have Poser but don't use it...maybe that will have to change.
Was just thinking that if I wanted to have a crowd of people in a room, but they are in the background, I could pose them, then convert them to objects if possible, then bring in unrigged and replicate getting a less bogged down filesize. But......but..... I will have to try it. As said they will be way in the background and not participating in the scene. But will keep a fully function rigged original of each one for when they are featured in the main part of the scene.
I was also thinking of doing a background image actually with them in it...that would possibly be more useful if I can master them looking 3D when they are 2D. I am OK with that with inanimate objects, having done 2D for ages, but this will be a neat challenge and possibly save lots of time along the way. So much to learn!! But I love it!
Cheers tbwoq for the info...really helps.
xx :) SileneUK
Replicated items, while being generated by a replicator, are extremely low overhead - the same as if it was "Duplicated".
The term Duplicate, as known from what Carrara calls a "Duplicate", is simply telling the render engine to make another one wherever in the scene you place the duplicate. So as far as file size, duplicates add little to nothing at all. I believe that it's the same with replicated objects too.
If you "Create" replicated objects from within the replicator, they are no longer generated by the replicator - and they each take up the same amount of file size as the original that was replicated. The advantage here is that, once created into an object of its own, you can change it however you want. Exchange clothes, textures, morphs, animation... anything. But while they remain replicated, they remain as a copy of the data of the original - so changes are out of the question.
Replica, by Inagoni, changes some of that. It is a replicator and a surface replicator built into one, but with more features allowing for changes in Shader tints, and other things. Still haven't used it to its fullest by any stretch - but I do like it.
Duplications may also be made to take up more file space. Any time you try to change a duplicated object, you'll be asked if you wish to "Edit the Master" (change happens to all instances) or "Create a New Master" (just like hitting "Create" in a replicator), which will remove the fact that this was a duplicate, and make it completely customizable as a stand-alone object - because it is now.
There are advantages to doing things like that.
Duplicates and Replications are excellent for helping to fill the scene and make great sense because they take up nil for extra file size space. An example for using both together would be to add a tree to your scene and replicate it. Even if you tell the replicator to randomly rotate and scale them, it might not look too real because there's still a very low level of variation. While that tree is in the replicator, select it and Cntrl D to duplicate it. Now use the scale tool to make this duplicate either really small or really big. deselect it and select it again and duplicate it again. Make another change to its scale for even more variation on the original. The replicator will now mix these three differently sized trees randomly. Click Shuffle to get a different mix. If you leave it like this, you're really only using that first tree, since the others are still truly duplicates. Duplicates can be translated, rotated, and scaled without removing their "Duplicate" status. I've never had the need to, so I've never tried it, but you might even be able to apply a modifier to a duplicate and still use it as a true duplication - but I'm not certain.
So we still have this replicator with the original tree and the two duplicates. Double-click on any of those three trees, which will take us into the plant editor. When it asks, choose to "Create a New Master" and then load in a preset of an entirely different tree type and, perhaps, play with the settings and make it really cool. Now you've just removed the 'duplicate' status of that tree, and it is now an individual that can be further edited in any way that you wish. It did add some to your file size, however. But it does allow you to add a lot more variety to the scene.
Dart has some good points. I will add that you can change the shader on a duplicate without changing the original.
The replicator has some advantages over duplication in some instances. Lets use creating a forest scene as an example. I like to duplicate and place some trees in specific locations, but duplicating 500 trees is a real pain. That's where the surface replicator comes in. You can do as Dart said for variation, and then use the replicator to create the forest. You can also use 3D paint to paint the terrain where you ant trees to grow. White for the trees and black for no trees. You could also create a black and white image map to define the trees. You can also use multiple surface replicators on the same terrain.
Regarding the randomness of the replicator, you can skew the results somewhat. Lets say you want a mixed forest. You have a pine and an oak. If you don't want a near 50/50 split in the types of tree, maybe more oak than pine, then all you need to do is duplicate your oak one or two times, so that your generated ratio skews toward more oaks.
I'll try that technique EP laid out over the weekend. As for the Replicate plug from Inagoni that Dart mentioned, I looked into that briefly, and this part:
"Replica also contains a deformer: the Replica Array. When the deformer is applied on a primitive, its mesh is replicated. The replication is controlled by either numerical input or by following a Target Object. The Replica Array can be animated as any other deformer and therefore creates very quickly complex movements."
Could that be used to leave the rig out when it replicates or am I barking up the wrong tree on that one? I initially hesitated going the obj export import route because one of the first things I tried was exporting every format carrara could do pretty much, fox, collada, dad, and there were always issues on the import, in my case, the shaders were always off if not also some of the objects scattered. I do like the idea of pulling the whole shader tree into the shader tab and dragging it back on import. I'll look into that. Thanks as always to all of you guys.
I might be able to check out the rig question tomorrow for you.
As for some of your thoughts, I would feel remiss if I didn't ask if you've ever seen SciFi Funk's Video Tutorials? Steve has some excellent strategies. The four part series on Low Poly People has methods of mesh editing, rig removal and reattaching, optimizing masses at very low hit on the computer, . great stuff.
so funny, yes... I actually came across SciFi Funk's stuff not 2 weeks ago, and I have his site bookmarked because I was going to go through them after the Infinite Skills series, but haven't had the time yet... but I have seen his low poly vids with the Urban Future 4 set, very very nice... and now you're telling me he specifically includes stuff like rig removal? I like what I'm hearing, will definitely look them over now, thanks
Disclosure: I did in fact skip one section from Infinite Skills, that pertaining to conforming clothes and figures and the like as I am mostly interested in constructing city like environments...but considering figures are rigged maybe that was an oversight...
Edit->Smooth Objects will convert Poser/Studio imports to Carrara native format. This is sometimes called unlocking the figure(or import). This basically means you have converted the figure(or building etc.) to Carraras full native feature set.
However, as I mentioned above, it will break the imports format such as conforming clothing or some features that were specific to the import compatabilty. Most of the objects shading, domains, geometry, rigging and some morphs should remain intact. After using this method you can also detach the skeleton/rigging in the assemble room. Animation->Detach Skeleton. The rig will now be a separate item and the model can be duplicated as usual.
For instance. Urban Future 1 has buildings that are Poser format and won't duplicate. Load and select them in Carrara, and in the assemble room Edit->Smooth Objects...when the dialog displays, check Change Smoothing then check button->None, then OK. Now the figure, or building, should be open to Carrara native features.
Thank you,
This is the answers to a question which I always put myself and moreover, interesting option!
Ok, so the results are in if anyone is still interested. That whole "smooth objects / detach skeleton" method works like a freakin' charm. No need to export and re import, no need to worry about what the shaders are going to do after it's all said and done, it just works. Needless to say I've been smoothing and detaching every set I own that needs it. Interestingly enough Urban Future 1 was the only UF set that needed it. I checked to make sure but Urban Futures 2 to 4 don't require any extra work to duplicate as instances. I guess ol' Stoney caught on after that first set and made our lives easier, which I am grateful for, as well as everyone here for the tips, with special thanks to tbwoq of course. This is huge... for me anyway... again I'm sure there would/will be different considerations for figures with clothing and so on, but as far as buildings (and I would assume, simple vehicles, etc) it has been a great success so far. Thanks again, love this community, and I'll be sure to bug you guys with something else deceptively simple (hopefully), in the near future, cheers!
PS - watched most of Sci-Fi Funk's vids by now... there is some helpful info to be gleaned for sure, but as far as city layout, his methods involve using a separate app called CityEngine which is pretty expensive for this purpose... YMMV... still there were some good tips in there... ok, cheers again!