Does Size Really Matter? A Queston for the Modellers!
Subtropic Pixel
Posts: 2,388
Hello:
I could have posted this in the Hexagon, Carrara, or even DS forums, but it kind of applies to modelling and scene building in general more than any one application in specific. Or maybe it applies to DAZ characters and figures more than anything else.
I am doing some modelling in Blender and would like to know how to ensure that sizes are appropriately matched to the sizes of stuff in DAZ Studio and Carrara. Blender allows for precise scaling in either metric or imperial measurements, which I think is very powerful if used effectively to build props, vehicles, buildings, or even people or animal meshes.
1. Do any of you who model take extra time to work to known measurements, either metric or imperial? If so, which?
2. Do any of the "factory" characters from DAZ have known or published dimensions? If so, where can I get them? If "not yet," then how can I figure them?
Prop Example:
I make a sword and I want it to be a meter in length, how can I ensure that it would "look like a meter" in a scene with Victoria 4, 5, or 6? Or with Michael 4, 5, or 6? Or with any of the Aikos or The Girl, etc. Assuming that the people in the scene haven't been resized, of course.
Architectural Example:
I want to build a space station and ensure that the hatches and crawl ways are people-sized and that the docking bay can hold ships of certain sizes up to but not including capital-sized ships.
Nerd Example:
David holds up a carpenter's square with a ruled edge along one side. Its markings look accurate against him and against the US dollar bill he's holding in his other hand. Currency has a known measurement and should compare and appear accurate against his measuring tool. I don't need "Nerd Accuracy" all the time, but when I need it, I don't want to be forced to do a lot of rejiggering in DAZ or Carrara.
I'm asking these questions now ultimately for my own ease-of-use but also because I am thinking of one day making products for sale, and I think this might be a useful feature to have.
Some people might answer one way or another depending on my work environment...so here's some background. For now, I'm sticking with Blender for mesh modelling and DAZ Studio for scene building when DAZ figures are used, but really Blender could do it all and animate too. At some point, I may try out Carrara for modelling and scene building, but I'm not strongly motivated to do so because Carrara's obsolete UI is difficult to read, whereas Blender's UI is easy to read and completely adjustable to boot. I also have both Bryce and Hexagon, but I rarely use them due to similar obsolescence issues. And Hex crashes more often than a narcoleptic sloth.
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Comments
What I always do in this case is:
- Export a Genesis (or whatever) figure as .obj file
- import this .obj file into the modeling software
- use the figure as size reference
This way you do not have to care about measures, just build in a size that looks correct with your reference figure.
I am with XoechZ, in the end it has to fit the figure, not the real life measurements.
However, if you want to build something very technical based on scale you could do that and fit it to the figure when you`re done.
But I think even then most people rather use blueprints on XYZ than measurements.
One practice I like and recommend though is working on a power of 2 grid. I have Maya set to meters/centimeters, but subdivided into 8/16/32 blabla.
In the long run it helps with texturing (if you follow it through there) and clean building, at least on architectural stuff.
DS works with meters like Maya, so an exported Genesis comes in at about 1.7 meters for me.
I concur with those above, Export a BASE rez Genesis Object for referance and work in the DAZ Default metric scale.
At one point I was working on a project with a friend. He had modeled every bit of it with exacting care based on the proper real life measurements. Lovely work..and all just off enough scale wise to look wrong with the figures. The measurements are important for proportions on the model but odds are still high your going to have to jigger with scale to have it look right with figures.
Thank you all for your input.
Flipmode, you say exported Genesis comes in around 1.7 meters in height? I may need to make my own measurements but I'm curious, which figure...V5, V6, M5, or M6? I'm making an assumption that it's one of those four as "standard", or maybe even David or Gia, but we probably wouldn't use Aiko, The Girl, or Freak for size comparisons; not for Western-based dimensions anyhow.
A workflow question: If making a building or interior space, do you guys like to bring a Genesis figure in before you make anything such as countertop, chair, or table heights, or for that matter the heights and widths of stairs, doorways, or windows, or do you prefer to rough out the architectural elements first before bringing in a figure for size comparisons and then make adjustments to the architecture at that point?
I'd be curious to learn some of the different workflows used by various PAs, regardless of choice of modelling software.
Oh, that's good to know. I might need to figure any scale variance and determine how best to correct it or maybe more appropriately, how to efficiently "accommodate" it so that it doesn't cause too much work for either myself or a possible future customer.
When I built the cars, I started off with primative planes in DS scaled to the correct size in centemeters and exported those planes to SIlo where I added the images of the car and then scaled them up so that I was modeling at 4 times the size of the car. This way I could easily model in more detail if I wanted to and see errors in the mesh. I personally find it easier to model on a larger scale.
I have modeled an interior set where I imported M5 at low res and used several copies of him to eye ball the scale. Worked ok for me.
Matty, thanks!
So you like to scale up for the modelling so as to allow greater detail; I was just asking myself about that. When you're done, do you rescale the project before preparing it for sale? Or..how does that work?
By the way, I think I may have some of your stuff from various sales last year. I should open them up and review; might be able to learn a lot!
Here`s a shot of V6, V5 and M5 in Maya, the lines are meters. Let`s say 1.7 to 1.8 meters ;)
As for workflow...yes, for buildings and interior there`s always a figure in the scene from the start. It helps getting a feel for what you are doing. I simply saved a workfile which includes the figures and always load it as starting point.
Wow, the difference between the two Victorias is not insignificant.
Thank you for that screensnap.
....wait a minute....
I knew it, I knew it, you found actual pictures of the elusive and reclusive Llamaghini! Those things are very fleet-footed spitters, like their namesake animal! :coolsmile:
I forgot to add the part about scaling back down but I do do that indeed. With the larger scale its easier to do refinements as well. If I export a model from DS in to Silo at Poser scale it imports in to Silo looking rather small so I scale it up to have a finer control. When I scale back down I just have to make sure that the item is lined up at 0 correctly
Another question. When you scale it back down, do you "lose" anything like accuracy in the file?
I mean, are there any mathematical rounding or granularity differences when you scale back down, and would repeated scaling up/changing/scaling down cause any significant variances over time?
A cube that is 1 x 1 x 1 Blender Units will import in to Studio as 1 x 1 x 1 centimeters when Custom Scale 100% is used, Studio's Blender Scale setting is wrong and there is no need to swap the axis like it does.
I noticed that exporting/importing a T-posed M6 from DS to Blender resulted in him laying down. I always thought that the "true" vertical axis was called "Z", but I don't know...which is the real standard?
I believe I saw a scaling chart for Poser online awhile ago.
Try here - http://www.morphography.uk.vu/scaleobj.html
Which standard do you want?
For geometry and statistics, x goes up and down the page, y goes left and right on the page, and z goes "into" and "out of" the page - so x is height.
For cartography, x goes north-south, y goes east-west, and z goes up-down - so z is height.
Typically in most apps, x goes east and west, z goes north and south, and y is the height
Like so - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCYQFjAA&url=http://www.sharecg.com/v/69559/related/21/DAZ-Studio/Measuring-Wall&ei=5TgKU4TIJdL6oASwv4K4Bg&usg=AFQjCNF8eDpPMN8Cgx3Z3UtMSrdVnSP-3g&bvm=bv.61725948,d.cGU
For those with access - I posted a scaling set for LW over at http://www.foundation3d.com/index.php?categoryid=38&p13_sectionid=417&p13_fileid=966
"Here are two sets of scaling tools - one sized to the Poser Apollo figure (nominally 72 inches in height) and including several building floor heights - nominally 12 feet from floor to ceiling. The second set is similar to the first except that it is about 800% larger (scaled to my Aurora Hangar WIP). An obj version is also supplied Have fun. They've helped me a lot and I hope they help you as well "
This forum is not allowing me to attach an RAR nor an obj file to this post nor can I post it in the Freepository.
Precision scalling isn't difficult. You just need to know that you're exporting at the exact size from your modelling app.
Here's a render of a ruler I made some time ago. It's 15cm/6 inches beside a 15cm cube in DS. I simply modelled it to scale in 3d max, exported it and brought it into Daz studio.
DS measurements are extremely precise. If I export a 99.99cm cube from max, it'll be 99,99cm in DS. I never bother importing figures for scale. They're too unreliable. If I want a wardrobe that's 100x200x50, I model it to that size. end of story.
mac
You loose nothing when scaling up or down between apps. To the program its all just 1's & 0's. Scale determines the size it appears on screen.
Which standard do you want?
For geometry and statistics, x goes up and down the page, y goes left and right on the page, and z goes "into" and "out of" the page - so x is height.
For cartography, x goes north-south, y goes east-west, and z goes up-down - so z is height.
There was a beautiful post on why which 3D apps used which of these, I think early last year? Now I can't find it. Personally I always considered the z axis to be up/down because in geometry class with a piece of graph paper on your desk the x axis goes right/left while the y axis goes towards/away.
That's the way it works in 3d max, although I *think* not in Maya. Poser adopted the Y up/down convention, so Daz Studio was forced to follow suit. After 15 years of using Max/Poser/DS, I still get confused when switching from one to the other. LOL.
mac
In all my apps, x is left to right, z is front to back, and y is top to bottom