I would love an Actually Authentic Kimono....
DrowElfMorwen
Posts: 536
I see kimono as a repeat product of DAZ through the years, but not a single one of them is actually accurate. I want to state that I lived in Japan for 8 years, with a very strong love for the traditional culture. I have also studied geisha (mainly Kyoto geiko) for over ten years, met them on several occassions, talked with them, hired them, etc and even wore kimono myself for a long time. One of the reasons I got into DAZ and 3D art in the first place, is because I wanted to create beautiful pictures of maiko (the apprentices) and geiko. Yet I have only once bought a DAZ kimono set and I never use it. None of them are traditional or accurate.
I just saw "dForce OC Kimono for Genesis 8", and while reading the details it says: "a hyper-realistic, totally traditional kimono that wraps around your character and lets her move with ease."
But it's not "totally traditional" at all, and the only thing realistic about it is the textures.
But on the model itself:
- The biggest flaw is the obi is just... a simple, small piece of cloth wrapped aroudn the waist? Obi are meters long in real life, and always are tied with a knot in the back (and on certain occassions or fashions, in the front) yet this one is totally missing most of its length.
- The collar, as on all DAZ kimono, is way too thin. A whole collar panel on the kimono is missing, and the eri, or under color, is not positioned right.
- The kimono is way too open in the chest area. No one wears kimono traditionally like this. Even with fashion, no Japanese wears it like this.
- The skirt of a kimono is worn wrapped TIGHT around the hips, ensuring that most of the time, leg is never seen. This one is completely open.
- Missing the juban, or under kimono, all together.
I get this is a fantasy product, but the maker shouldn't be claiming it's traditional at all. I have studied kimono kitsuke (how to proper wear kimono) and actually, it's my dream to work with a DAZ artist to create an accurate kimono, and I am especially interested in creating proper, accurate geisha kimono. It would actually be accurate, and gorgeous, and not just a repeat of the same fantasy product over and over. I've wanted to do this for years but lack the building skill.
Is it possible I can work with someone to make one that IS accurate, authentic and can be sold in the store?
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Comments
i hope this does happen.
i'd love to see a realistic traditional kimono with a high level of detail and complex dforce outfit component behaviors here.
good luck!
j
Yea, I definitely need one! But I would need to work with a DAZ PA to educate them--no offense--about kimono so they know how to make it proper. It is not just clothing. How it's worn means something. Every part of the outfit carries a message, it follows rules. If a PA would contact me, I would be most grateful. I mean I make kimono designs in Second Life, which now supports rigged mesh, and I've been doing this for more than ten years now. I really hope this wish comes true.
The Furisode products by Sickleyield look pretty authentic to me (I'm no expert)
They don't autofit but they dForce really well.
dForce Kimono Outfit doesn't look too bad either, even if the fabric doesn't seem quite right.
There is also a male version.
Do these parts if a Japanese kimono confuse you: Obiage, makura, juban, haneri, datejime, and obidome? If so, I can help! If someone wants to make one, and wants someone to consult on how real Japanese kimono look, are worn, and particular styles, accessories for the kimono, and symbolism I CAN HELP.
Please contact me for help if you are making a kimono model. Almost all kimono models I have seen have details VERY wrong.
This is a nice model, but its very outdated and it has not aged well alongside gen8 https://www.daz3d.com/furisode-genesis-2-female-s
There is one on Artstation
Kimonolady, I actually know all of that... and I asking what you are asking. I want people to come to me so I can teach them about kimono. Please don't come on my thread trying to take that away from me and literally try to usurp me, in essence by saying the same thing I am, okay? It's rude. You dont' just come on threads trying to stay "Pick ME instead!"
I am simply looking for a creator I can help create an authentic ensemble.
The furisode for Genesis 2 does look nice, but it could look better. For one, I would suggest that the wide obi (belt) be a not-rigged part, and simply sit over the kimono. Because the obi should never, ever bend. The upper panel, also, apparently does not continue down, and in fact most panels aren't even marked on the kimono. Also, the collar panel is also totally missing.
As for the genesis 8 one, that is the one I critiqued above.
Can you link it, please? I've only ever seen art there, not anything you can actually buy.
I found it. It really is gorgeous! Unfortunately it won't quite serve my needs, however. Geisha and maiko use different kimono, at least the ones in Kyoto do... they're long and trail on the ground. But thanks for letting me know!
No one is "usurping you" by expressing a shared interest and desire to help make a good product. Way to make an additional offer to help into thread drama. It's weird that you would take an additional offer, to help make something we all way, as a threat to exclude you. There is no reason why only -1- person could be a reference, when in fact the topic of kitsuke is so diverse that it would in fact benefit to have several knowledgable people helping.
The only objective I have is to help get a good quality and accurate product.
#enddrama
I'm happy to help if anyone wants it for making culturally accurate kimono.
Okay, pardon my mistaking this. The way you worded your post was... not clear. However, you should make your own thread instead of, AGAIN, asking people to contact YOU. Your post was addressed to others, not me, (you didn't even acknowlege me or my original post in your reply!) so don't go trying to make me look like the bad guy.
I am wanting to help a creator in this regard, and adding a third person will just make coordination difficult. Also, I want specifically to help make hikizuri, geiko and maiko kimono, not a regular lady's kimono outfit. At least, that is a secondary goal.
So, if this project happens, if someone wants to work with me, the first goal will be on geisha kimono only. And now with dForce it will look very beautiful.
As a PA I can only point out that historically accurate and "works in Studio" are not always the same thing. " For one, I would suggest that the wide obi (belt) be a not-rigged part, and simply sit over the kimono. Because the obi should never, ever bend." We are required to make garments that work no matter what the pose of the figure is, ie:long gowns that one would never wear for doing yoga must still work with yoga poses. I have contemplated making historically accurate garments but it seems an impossible task given the limitations of 3d rigging, the sensitivity of regional differences, the impracticality of a 10 yards of fabric wrap working well in 3d etc. etc. I'm sure there are many PA's who would love to create such a work of art, it is simply not practical or profitable to do so.
Well, I'm not talking historically accurate per say, because these kimono are still worn and used daily in Japan, just not as wide as they used to be.
Whether or not the obi is rigged to fit with the model, there is no reason why such an ensemble can't be made accurate. Of course there doesn't have to be ten yards of fabric wrap but one can make it look like there is. I would also argue that, profitable or not, it would be a work of art and something to be very proud of, and for that reason alone could be made. I would buy it even if it was really pricey, as long as it was accurate (and was dForce compatable, because that would need to be a requirement for a geisha's long kimono (hikizuri)).
As an example of a part that can be accurate: the collar. Cross it left over right, and make it sit how it's supposed to sit. It is not supposed to hug the neck, but the part that will touch the figure can still move with it, of course. That said, a collar must be rigged to *not bend with the neck* and most follow the chest only. I'm sure this is feasible and not impossible. But it is this study of kimono movement that I think PAs don't have or don't use or research.
An obi can simply be parented to the stomach/chest and not rigged. Why? Because the movement of the body in kimono won't allow for it to bend. I know you said it must fit "any pose" and if that's a DAZ requirement, that's ridiculous. Anyone trying to do a yoga pose with a figure in kimono has no right to yell about why it doesn't fit/look right. Accuracy should be what counts. Beauty, true art. Most DAZ pieces look like novice stuff compared to what other programs do and make. Sounds like DAZ is just limiting the artists' true potential but I hope that's not the case. For example, pockets, creases, cloth over or under other cloth and buttons should be part of a 3d model itself and not just part of the texture. It looks horrible, and it doesn't allow users to create their own looks very well. Things like that, should be improved and I know we can do better with kimono. And DAZ has improved a lot, especially since Gen 8 came out but they can still go a lot further.