Creating Merchant Products - Using Morphs, Injects to create characters? Your thoughts
SoulUnit
Posts: 112
I have been looking around the posts and googling but would like to hear your ideas on what direction you feel a content creator should lean toward in creating products for the market. I am a Zbrush user and can create morphs for characters and see there are a plethora of different ways for users to apply morphs to their characters depending upon what they own. I would like to focus my efforts on morphing and creating original characters for Daz.
The dilemma seems to be at least from my perspective the multiple characters from V4 to G2 and all the morph options in between. As I understand it V4 comes with Morph++. Then there are add ons that allow V4 to be compatible this G1. Then there are the Genx packages.
For instance, some buyers may have only Daz Studio with no Morph add on packages. Would it be necessary to create separate morph Packages for V4, G1, and G2 ? It seems that a Morph saved as a Morph asset is version specific, is that correct?
What about creating injections instead of specific morphs? What is the difference? Is there an advantage to one over the other? I imagine you could you create a complete body and facial morph in Zbrush and then offer it as an injection. For that matter you could create a complete body and facial morph in Zbrush and offer it in a single slider morph. Again would these be version specific?
With so many artists creating content all over the net it seems very confusing for new users to know what to buy for Daz depending on the add ons they have or need to get. So where do you think the best place to start is?
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Comments
Thread moved to the commons since it wasn't in regards to program development
Well .... I'm not the creator of morphs, no.
I'm not a seller, 3d products, no.
I buy and use the products that you put up for sale.
My suggestion may not be worth, but I'll throw it in there anyway:
you ever considered creating morphs for Genesis, morphs to turn them into toons characters?
Couple things to remember regarding the V4/Genesis. By default, Genesis uses the V4 mapping. You can apply V4 textures to Genesis out of the box. To boost sales, many vendors offered both Genesis and V4 morphs.
The division and change in rigging and morph technology comes between V4 and Genesis. V4 uses the ExP morph technology and standard Poser rigging out of the box. Genesis and above use the Triax WM rigging and (sorry I don't remember exactly what the morph technology for Genesis is called) a completely new way to handle morphs that removes many of the issues that have existed since Poser came into being.
What you pretty much have to decide is what you want to create and what you think will sell. DAZ sells the bulk of products for DS, Genesis and the G2F/M line. Rendo and RDNA have more than they did a year ago but they are still behind DAZ. Hivewire caters to Dawn. Dawn is unique in the fact that they offer separate DS and Poser versions. Some cothing comes in both versions, others do not. The use of Genesis and G2F/M has been made easier with the DSON importer for Poser, the Gen 4 figures are still in use.
What you buy often depends upon what you can afford, what you need and or what you are using. There is no best place to start.
Thank you for the suggestion, that is a little beyond my workflow.
Thank you this is helpful, One thing I seem to notice is a lot of attention is still on V4 and Geneses and not so much G2. I was thinking I would be primarily designing for Genesis so this suggestion works well .
Thank you for the suggestion, that is a little beyond my workflow.
Well, here's an example of what I'm talking about, the images below are characters genesis (I did a mix with morphs: Oldman rex, and Neanderthal) and textures (Yago, and Oldman), for both M4 and M4 UV_set also, in PP2012.
Although ... if I go to export Vue, so I need to convert the M4 textures for V4, and use a UV _set V4.
In poser for me, the textures and uv_set M4 works well in genesis ... only if you export the problem comes.
I think Genesis could have a good look as stubborn toons characters.
a few things to remember:
1- if you are working in Zbrush (or another modeller/sculpting tool) and you import morphs, these are FIGURE SPECIFIC; you can't just import a morph created for Genesis into G2 or V4 because the vertex order and number on each figure is different, so if you'd want to do separate versions, you'd need to use some tool like GenX to export, HOWEVER
2- if your new character for, say, V4, is using a mix of both your work in Zbrush and DAZ-provided morphs, even if these are part of the base figure (i.e. eye separation, mouth height, or similar) YOU CANNOT use these to create the new "master morph". While Gen2 might have similar-sounding morphs to Gen1 or V4, the results are rather different, and therefore a dial on one won't have the same effect as a dial on the other, and if you just "bake" your zbrush+daz morphs into a separate new morph, that is copyright infringement if you redistribute/sell the results (although you're fine doing it for yourself). That's one of the main reasons why there are not that many attempts at transfer morphs from one character to another.
Well, here's an example of what I'm talking about, the images below are characters genesis (I did a mix with morphs: Oldman rex, and Neanderthal) and textures (Yago, and Oldman), for both M4 and M4 UV_set also, in PP2012.
Although ... if I go to export Vue, so I need to convert the M4 textures for V4, and use a UV _set V4.
In poser for me, the textures and uv_set M4 works well in genesis ... only if you export the problem comes.
I think Genesis could have a good look as stubborn toons characters.
3D Universe has Toon Generations. Have you taken a look at them? I don't do toons so I haven't really dealt much with them.
Thanks Arien, so if I understand you are basically saying it would make more sense to create a separate morph package for each generation, correct?
I think what Arien is trying to say is that due to mesh differences between the three models, you have to have morphs for each model.
If you are using ZBrush and creating your own morph from scratch and then using a product like GenX, you would create your morph in V4 first and then use GenX to transfer it to Genesis and/or G2F.
If you are not using GenX as part of your workflow, you will have to create morphs for each of the different models because of the vert differences between them. Remember, V4 is a very high poly model. Genesis is low poly and G2F falls in between.
You can create morphs using dial spins but those must be saved as a pz2 or other asset and must be left as is. You cannot create a morph using dial spins, spawn a master morph from those dial spins and call it your own.
If your doing unique morphs (not dependent on a gene pool character like v6) then I would suggest starting with genesis 2 female and male just because currently those are the figures that are most popular sales wise.
Thanks Arien, so if I understand you are basically saying it would make more sense to create a separate morph package for each generation, correct?
Thank you this is helpful I do own GenX an could go that route. My thought is to strictly create unique morphs in Zbrush and offer them in a package.
I was thinking more from what packages a merchant would need to put together to offer the morphs to the customer. So In this scenario a merchant would create 3 packages of morphs for sale 1 for V4, 1 for Genesis, and 1 for Genesis 2. Correct? (sorry to be over simplistic sometimes the questions get lost in translation)
Really, I was not aware that G2 was very popular from what I have been reading, although I know it is the latest. In any event I will likely offer any mods I do for all 3 versions.
Really, I was not aware that G2 was very popular from what I have been reading,
Yeah, what you read and what people have actually been buying more of are two different things.
Yeah, what you read and what people have actually been buying more of are two different things.
What he said. And it depends on where your reading and who is doing the writing. DAZ PA's have been pretty clear in stating that the genesis 2 figures are doing really well. It is doing better than Genesis 1 which did better than V4 (who is an "also ran" here at this point) . I do see scads of posts from people who are not vendors anywhere and who have no foundation for making statements that imply or outright state that the genesis line is a failure. Of course since they are pulling the information out of thin air and incomes are up around here because of Genesis 2. Well I will let you guess who is correct.
Yeah, what you read and what people have actually been buying more of are two different things.
What he said. And it depends on where your reading and who is doing the writing. DAZ PA's have been pretty clear in stating that the genesis 2 figures are doing really well. It is doing better than Genesis 1 which did better than V4 (who is an "also ran" here at this point) . I do see scads of posts from people who are not vendors anywhere and who have no foundation for making statements that imply or outright state that the genesis line is a failure. Of course since they are pulling the information out of thin air and incomes are up around here because of Genesis 2. Well I will let you guess who is correct.
OK very interesting. I just picked it up overall in perusing through the forums. I think primarily it was about the number of V4, M4 figures that are out there from the past that are being supported by merchants and that Genesis was easy to work with and similar in fits to V4, M4.
As someone relatively new to Daz ( I was using poser extensively in 2004-2005 and it was to "uncanny valley" for me) and more familiar with traditional 3d Modeling engines like C4d I did not realize how different a fit these figures were and I was buying a ton of stuff firstly for V4 because it was so well supported then V6 because of the HD and lastly G1 as it seemed like a middle product. Then I ran into all the fitting issues and buying morph packs to use the items I bought which was really frustrating. I have to say it was a lot of money spent on trial and error and I feel at times like I am spending 3 times the money to get what I need or spend days pouring over the forums to see what other have done to get past fitting issues.
I just want to offer something people will see the value in if at all possible instead of having to buy for 3 different figures. I guess I could offer a lower priced separate package if they only need one or a bundled packaged deal for all 3.
With the new Gen X2 plug-in, this has become somewhat of a moot question. With Gen X2, I have spent March Madness buying Genesis 2 morphs because I can finally use them on Genesis 1, my figure-of-choice.
As far as dials versus injections, I prefer sculpted morphs for single figures. Most everybody seems familiar with what the common morph packs can and cannot do, and only a sculpted morph lets you push the envelope to acheive a unique character. (That having been said, the figures I render with are Frankenstein's-monsters of dialed morphs. The one i was working with yesterday had a G2F face shape, a G2M nose, G1 body-weight morphs on an F4 body, with M3 and A3 morphs thrown on for finishing touches. Then I gave him an M4 pose and pasted a V4 expression on his face. Thank goodness for Gen X2!)
For human males and females, choose Genesis 2. That is the official path forward. From what I've seen, most of the new work on Genesis 1 is for creatures and unisex figures. If you need backwards-compatibility, use V4/M4 with dialed Morphs++ for the body shape and Zbrush for the head shape. Custom-sculpted body morphs will need to be injected into clothing and most people either can't or won't do that for a single figure.
This may sound harsh but its honest and not a knock on your potential skills because I have no clue what they are. That said, if your worried that customers will not see value from a product for a single generation then you need to look again at what your considering doing. I don't really think that multiple generational morphs in the same package would be an added selling point but it will be three times the work. People will buy a product for which ever version they use most.. and then wonder if they payed extra for the other morphs that they are never going to use.
If you look at the products that include Genesis and V4 morphs, there is or was a reason. Genesis uses the V4 mapping out of the box. Genesis was the next level up from V4. For quite some time, there was no simple way to get Genesis into Poser. Outside of DAZ, the other brokerages were offering little support for Genesis.
Once DAZ offered the DSON importer, there was some improvement but Genesis did not see the support V4 has outside of DAZ. While there was a great deal of Genesis support when it came to morphs (especially monster and creature morphs), clothing seemed to lag and skimpwear was everywhere.
That's not to say G2F doesn't have her share. But the return to the gender split and the additional changes to the mesh seems to have improved the base mesh.
Are you currently selling at one of the brokerages? Have you even inquired as to how to become a broker and what types of products they would or would not be interested?
Very helpful, and resourceful. I end up with quite a few Frankenstein figures myself. So all and all the most mentioned purchase for compatibility in this thread are the GenX packs. As long as a customer owns these they are pretty well covered. If not then they will need figure specific morphs.
I am a big fan of some of the Joe Quick Morphs and HFS packs and I think these are the direction I would probably be interested in. So I am seeing more comments on the pluses of G2 which make sense to me from a release standpoint. The program really should move forward by it's releases and they should be representative of the latest advances by the designers.
Of course when I started as a customer I thought G2 was the best bet for HD skin until I saw Soto's skin work with Freak 4 which is some of the best work I have seen yet and this just seemed to prove that there was a lot of merit to why people were wanting to make the most out of their collection of the 4 figures thus the question on what to design for as of 2014.
This may sound harsh but its honest and not a knock on your potential skills because I have no clue what they are. That said, if your worried that customers will not see value from a product for a single generation then you need to look again at what your considering doing. I don't really think that multiple generational morphs in the same package would be an added selling point but it will be three times the work. People will buy a product for which ever version they use most.. and then wonder if they payed extra for the other morphs that they are never going to use.
Not at all I like direct and point taken. I know there are far more sophisticated and experienced veteran designers for Daz but I have also seen some relatively simple offerings as well.
Thank you for this background between the programs I picked up bits and pieces in my research in the forums but this makes it clear.
I am not currently selling outside. I am more of of a futurist and mechanical designer and that would be where I would likely start. I usually start with what I cannot find or think I would like to use.
I frequent most of the other stores, Rendo, DNA, etc. for purchases but I am not in other forums. I have read over some of the Daz documents for merchants but really I am just putting my foot in the water at this point.
This is the forum I wanted to start in to hear from other merchants as to what their experience was in designing and for what figures if they were to start designing as of this date.
Rendo has a industry forum that covers what's going on in the graphics industry itself and a Marketplace Showcase forum. You only are allowed access to the Broker's forum if you are an active broker.
There are a few brokers who routinely post here. Most posts by PA's are commercial covering a newly released product or a soon to be released product or answering a thread about one of their products.
If there is a broker's forum here, it's probably limited to those PA's who broker here. One thing you may not be aware of is that the majority of products listed as DAZ Originals are PA products. DAZ buys them outright from the PA.