ot: to writers/authors, sequels, do you stick to formula? better to be unpredictable? + misc stuff
Mistara
Posts: 38,675
am i behooved to stick to a forumla?
it's like the poor Trix rabbit,who (whom?) never gets the trix.
but then i get upset when i buy a sequel of something and it's not like the one i enjoyed so much.
need to decide. :shut:
space pirates having an attack of conscience. can it happen every other episode?
either, he has a conscience or he doesn't, doesn't seem like something that should happen some times.
do you break your own formula?
Post edited by Mistara on
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I read Stephen King got a lot of hate mail when he ended the 4th book of the Dark Tower in a cliff hanger and even to the point of readers telling him they were dying of illnesses and needed to know what would happen to his cast of characters since they would not live to the next published installment and his response was "I don't know"
I think when you write a story you need to see where the characters take you, and it's not always where you intended to take them.
and the hell with it today, Im drinking a liter of diet soda and skipping the gym, that was unexpected but I have no regrets.
:) no wanna haz regrets
If you are really into writing and wish to do it well I highly suggest this
The Screenwriters Bible, it is full of those how too's when too's and why's. It also shows how to develop characters over time or present them fully developed at the start of a story and work it in properly. It may say Screen Writer but works just as well for books.
"Kill your darlings."
-William Falkner
"Drink more Ovaltine."
-Little Orphan Annie (via decoder ring)
Wasn't it "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine"? Poor Ralphie. Waiting all that long and it's a crummy commercial.
Are you talking about a certain book or asking for literary advice? Perhaps I can help...
Wasn't it "Be sure to drink your Ovaltine"? Poor Ralphie. Waiting all that long and it's a crummy commercial.
"Never quote me on quotes"
-me
yes it was, good memory or next time I'll use google.
I think there's a difference between "formula" and "consistent quality writing."
With respect to space pirates having an attack of conscience, is your story about how characters change over time? If so, the attacks of conscience should come more frequently until the space pirate is no longer able to continue life as it was before. Another option would be for the space pirate to reject these attacks of "conscience" as being unrealistic, and become even more cynical and ruthless.
The conventions of storytelling are that to be a "story" generally there should be some change happening, most often in the characters themselves. They grow, or sometimes fail to grow, as a result of the events of the story. Sometimes the change occurs only in the world events (characters save the world from the Big Bad, etc.), but these stories are usually more satisfying if the characters also change. Frodo & company save Middle Earth from Sauron and the Ring, but they also all change in the process.
The most rare kind of change I've seen happen in writing is that the reader is the one who changes. These are powerful stories, but I think they are also the most difficult to write.
A change that just keeps flip-flopping isn't really a change, and probably won't make a very satisfying story for the readers, whether it's a character's unreliable change of heart, an endless sequence of threats who are handily dealt with by the heroes until the next one comes along, or just a constant change of scenery.
All that being said, you are not obliged, as a writer, to follow any rules. You are not obliged to shower or comb your hair, either. ;) But if what you want to know is how to keep your readers happy with your story, you'll probably find it helpful to think about what kind of change your story implicitly promises to your readers, and whether you're delivering on that implicit promise.
If a particular story pattern is followed repeatedly the phrase is "cookie cutter" - a lot of TV series can tend to fall into that (meet monster of the week, character X is menaced by monster of the week, character y finds monster's Achilles heel).
That's good info. I may have to pick that up. I've been working on a collection of short stories (for decades!). Most of them are in the same 'universe' and support a common theme. Most of the characters only last for one short story. There's really only one character who appears across multiple stories and time spans. He's far from the central character, tho. Each one has it's own central characters. After finishing one story, I came across the writings and TV shows of Joseph Campbell. The story I had just written had unconsciously followed Joseph Campbell's definition of the Hero's Journey to the letter.
And then, there are some stories I've written, or started on, that have absolutely nothing to do with anything else...
Lost In Space, Star Trek (TOS), even Dr. Who. The other expression is 'formulaic'.
Even though the old Outer Limits show did pretty much have a 'monster of the week', sometimes the monster wasn't all bad. Sometimes WE were the monsters. If you watched The Outer Limits with more than just a superficial view, there was a lot of depth there. Some excellent writing.
there's lots of tropes on character arcs.
i feel a danger of falling into the pirates of penzance. :shut:
IMHO that's only an actual danger if none of your characters can carry a tune in a bucket. ;-)
Another source of interesting brain fuel: JRR Tolkien has some thoughts on what he calls "Secondary Creation" in his essay On Fairy-Stories, which appears in a couple of his collections. Maybe a bit more fantasy-oriented, but it should still be relevant.
I used to have a Copy of How to write like the Writers, it Featured Stephen King, Anne Rice and several others. They all had chapters on the methods they used, as detailed as you could care to get. Someone needed it more than I as it is no longer to be found. But one of Stephen Kings pointers stuck with me from then to now. Edit, edit some more walk away for a time and then edit again.
He showed how a sentence went from long and dull, his own, to short sweet and just had what was needed and nothing more.
I miss that book so much.
An okay writer uses cliffhangers to end every (!!!) chapter.
A bad writer uses cliffhangers to end a book.
A good writer can use cliffhangers only occasionally and still make the audience hold their breath.
Books with writing tips are okay, but they alone won't make anybody a good writer. You have to take your time; read LOTS of books, good ones; most importantly, feel the flow of the narrative. Without it, you can write books that sell, even blockbusters, but they won't be brilliant and you'll remain on the craftsman level.
The genre you take part in is important. When writing a humorous story, characters are even expected to have not-so-believable quirks. Think of Glen Cook; Dojango overuses "actually". Nobody would do so in real life, but it helps Cook distinguish Dojango from dozens of characters. Think of the psyche of your pirate. What type of personality does he have?
The two best essays on the craft, of those I've read, are JRRT's On Faerie Stories (thanks, Jaderail!) and Raymond Chandler's The Simple Art of Murder. With On Faerie Stories one must also re-read Leaf by Niggle, which is usually bundled beside it.
I'd also add this: know your characters. You may or may not be following a trope or basing the character however loosely on a real person, but know them. What is the Emperor's secret? What one thing does the headstrong young baron fear most? Is the albino likely to take a swift and brutal vengeance, or a slow and pitiless one? Why does the lycanthrope cling to his curse?
Who are all these people? What does each one want, fear, love, and hate?
Is your setting a character itself? Are people more or less likely to behave a particular way on this planet, or in that city, or during the autumnal festival? Why?
For everyone: read Caillois. But firstly, READ - classic literature from Ancient Greeks through all the greats to Tolkien and Pratchett; WRITE; REVIEW what you do wrong.
Lost In Space, Star Trek (TOS), even Dr. Who. The other expression is 'formulaic'.
Even though the old Outer Limits show did pretty much have a 'monster of the week', sometimes the monster wasn't all bad. Sometimes WE were the monsters. If you watched The Outer Limits with more than just a superficial view, there was a lot of depth there. Some excellent writing.
A major limitation of most TV script writing in the US is the lack of story arc. Networks seem to prefer stories that are interchangeable in order, so they are not required to show them in any particular order. As a result, characters don't grow and change over time. Every episode has to end with the status quo pretty much unchanged. The stories are forced to be fairly formulaic.
The Simpsons actually lampshades this on multiple occasions for comedic effect. :) But usually it's a limitation that I feel has a severe negative impact on the quality of the storytelling.
Generally speaking, it is better to avoid trying to mimick TV. However, once you get somewhere, you should have anough experience to critically make use of the material from TV-Tropes. But it is not for beginners - you have to be fairly critical to know the boundaries.
*** Cough... cough*** What FOX did to Firefly ***Cough***
Perhaps the worst-fumbled show in US television history...
IT depends on the genre. Some people like certain series because they are 'comfort reads' you read them because the characters/story/plot doesn't change that much and the readers like it that way.
If you observe the genre conventions you can still get a way with a lot. Just don't break the conventions, otherwise, you need to market accordingly.
If for example, you write a romance novel and both characters die, it isn't a romance. Because the formula of the romance means the characters need to live happily ever after. Anything else within the story premise is usually fine though.
In general though, my favorite trope is to reverse stereotypes. I am easily bored by stereotypical genre characters roles. So I tend not to write stuff that breaks gender/human/stereotypes.
I also really dislike predictable relationships. If I can predict who will hook up, or how the relationship will work, I usually get bored easily. I like to mix it up a bit.
Well, technically, you're not right. Romance tends to end tragically. Even such staple works like "Romeo and Juliet" or, more importantly for me, the story of Pyram and Thisbe, do end like that. The thing you say about reverting stereotypes is right. While you cannot make up something truly never-has-happened-before, you can - and have to - change it to be original and refreshing.
Parody and satire rely on that heavily.
Well, technically, you're not right. Romance tends to end tragically. Even such staple works like "Romeo and Juliet" or, more importantly for me, the story of Pyram and Thisbe, do end like that. The thing you say about reverting stereotypes is right. While you cannot make up something truly never-has-happened-before, you can - and have to - change it to be original and refreshing.
Parody and satire rely on that heavily.
"Romeo and Juliet" and "Pyramus and Thisbe" aren't Romances.
Yes I am. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_novel
Are we really going to get into a what is right and what is not debate over writing? It is a Art form just like any other, there are no hard rules, just guidelines that most chose to follow. Just like any other Art form what rules there are are made to be broken as seen fit but the user of that art form. There are opinions on what should or should not be done and like all art those opinions vary from person to person. So there is no way for anything to be correct or not, there is only each persons view, and each person has a right to that view or opinion.
And Reading is as important as writing, on this one I do agree. Varied reading material will expand a persons scope of the field of creative writing but is not a must. That again is a personal decision.
i read all the Horatio Hornblower novels, masterpieces, as space battle research. pity, can't find logic in broadsides and running out the cannons in space battles :lol:
Not without verging on parody. Leiji Matsumoto (of Yamato and Captain Harlock fame) did a lot of this sort of thing, and managed to get away with it, more or less.... but I think you have to do an outstanding job with the rest of your story (especially character development) to get this to work.
As for the definition of a "romance," the category term is used in a number of ways. If you are talking about "romance novels" as the contemporary publishing/marketing category, the main characters can't die, and actually there are some pretty tight conventions that the publishers require. On the other hand, the Dumas novels are "romances" in the older sense of the word, i.e. they have dramatic, emotional plots (for lack of a better definition). Romantic tragedies like Romeo and Juliet are another category.
What I mean is that these terms do have fairly precise meanings... they just have multiple definitions, used in different contexts. Each context has its own conventions. Good writing needs to be aware of the conventions the anticipated audience expects, and break them selectively to generate surprise and to keep the interest of the readers. :)
If you're writing about space pirates, and going with Horatio Hornblower as a general genre model, it sounds like you're aiming for space opera. Plausibility of the science isn't so important, but Hornblower does grow and change over the course of the stories. (Personally I don't find him that admirable, but I'm probably improperly judging him by modern morals.) Presumably you want your readers to care what happens to the characters. If your space pirate keeps changing his (her?) mind about being a conscienceless villain, readers will probably stop caring. On the other hand, a conscience is a real disadvantage in piracy. ("The last ship we fought proved to be crewed entirely by orphans....") I think this is probably the reason these stories are often told from the point of view of a junior crew member who can't figure out if the captain has a conscience or not. But you, as the writer, probably need to know in order to write a compelling character. ;)
Maybe your pirate is principled and will show mercy in certain situations, but is utterly ruthless when his/her own crew (or some other critical factor) is at risk?
that's the hard question. lol what plausibly deniable reason can keep him in character :shut:
he's 1,200 years old. hard bitten. i need him to save a snobby high elf lord, later on, it's the reason the dragon king doesn't kill him, story essential.
unless, i could try to change the elf's predicament, make it so gross it would squeeze mercy out of a stone. or/plus a lil backstory, his first love was an elf,
As a reader or movie watcher, I love unpredictability. the predictable plot devices are often all used up and boring. If you can keep me surprised, you can probably keep me interested.
If you experiment with a major change, then decide you've gone too far and you no longer like the way it's headed, you could always through in the completely ridiculous back-it-ip plot elements like "it was all a dream", or We all had to pretend it was like this to hide X, but now that it's over, here's what was REALLY happening, or your character was replaced by someone/something else and now the changes make sense, etc.
I won't get into details here, but at the national universities here, it is classified as both tragedy and romance. It is not very important to the thread though, so I'll end this now.
The point is, the thread aims at finding out whether a formula should be there or not. For me, heads-over-heels changes like described by Sean is too risky. You have to really know what you're doing to try it or it will be ridiculous. It is a matter of subtlety, which is hard to explain without a text. Whisky, perhaps you'd like to show us your piece so that more targeted help can be provided?