Buying a Mac/PC Opinions?
Soto
Posts: 1,440
UPDATE:
Thank you for the replies, which are all really helpful.
Basically I am right now between these two options I'm attaching as images. A PC and a Mac of around the same cost. PC being slightly cheaper.
What are your thoughts about them?
Thanks!!
mac.jpg
729 x 531 - 85K
pc.jpg
1901 x 795 - 369K
Post edited by Soto on
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Greetings,
I have roughly the 27" version of that at work. (It's older, so the CPU is more like 2.7GHz quad-core.) It's a damn nice piece of equipment. I've been angling to get the company to let me take it home when they close my office later this year. :)
Seriously though, it's pretty solidly powered for doing DAZ-like stuff, although I'd bump up the RAM if you can. (Well, look, to me I wouldn't go for the 21", it feels too small, so I'd bump up to 27" if you can, and then 6-9 months down the road increase the RAM via Crucial, or something.)
I'm also deeply addicted to having a second monitor, generally smaller, where I can dump tool windows and stuff.
The GPU on my (again, older) system is just a smidge underpowered, I think, so I don't think I'd run Octane on it, for instance, but it's good enough to handle DAZ in general.
It's an expensive system, but I really like it. My work system is for software development, but I use it for DAZ in the evenings (and sometimes run LuxRender over the weekend) and it's very, very nice. For whatever reason it shows up to LuxRender as 8 processes, and I think it's because it's four core, hyper threaded, or something like that. I really should know why it does that; it could be that I have an i7 and might be leading you astray. :-/ I'll check when I get in to work tomorrow.
-- Morgan
Thanks a lot. I feel more confident about it!
I had my eyes on the 27 inches one. But price went to high and was a bit behind on the tech aspects compared to the 21. But the huge screen had me drooling.
I even considered a new PC and use my 32 TV screen instead. But I'm not sure.
Basically my priorities are big image edition (many layers, more than 6000 pixel photos), DAZ Studio, LuxRender, 3D modeling....
I also saw this Dell one. But not sure I want to go back to Dell since my current one was a Dell and it failed me for years.
Optiplex 3020
4th gen Intel core i5-4570 (6m cache, 3.2ghz)
4gb DDR3 1600 MHz (4gbx1)
500 GB 7200RPM SATA
Intel HD 4600
Cheaper but not sure it worths it.
iMac 21 $1799
Optiplex 3020 $1116 (CPU only)
I'm in Costa Rica. Price is probably higher than in US
My iMac is a 2011 model and it's holding up very nicely.
Admittedly, I've maxed up the RAM and don't use any 3rd party render engines, but I was running the student edition of Maya on it last year when I was taking a class in that and it handled it fairly smoothly. And it's always handled Photoshop and InDesign well.
Now days 4gig especially for 3D rendering and or art work is not really enough, even 8gig is on the small side.. Going for 16gig or more is preferable gives you some head room with doing large projects..
Going for branded PC's is always a problem IBM / Dell / HP and the like I see as always being crap too much proprietary garbage in them.. If you go to another PC better to get it custom built to what you want..
As for Mac don't know much about them apart from them being more expensive for what you get..
I've been a Mac user my entire adult life and recently swapped an iMac for a "gaming" PC. I love OS X dearly, but I bit the bullet and went over to the dark side for a number of reasons: I was frustrated with restrictions (in both software and hardware), heating/ventilation issues, and I know it's a cliche but the fact of the matter is that I got a machine that's twice as powerful for half the price (sorry, it had to be said). I was looking to upgrade, and the new Mac Pro doesn't have an option for Nvidia cards. Being an Octane user, this really left me with no other option.
I adjusted pretty quickly. Hardest thing getting used to was probably the fan noise (Macs are silent). But hey, I said wanted better ventilation. It's true that everything Apple makes is a pleasure to use, but the thing to remember is that the grass always looks greener on the other side. Not trying to dissuade you, just my experiences. At some point i'll probably hook a Mac Mini back up to my main rig for general use and then i'll have the best of both worlds.
That's essentially a 'mobile' graphics chip. It won't be much use to Photoshop.
One review said the imac 21 was 'good for a little light photo editing'.
edited and removed by user
Definitely Mac. It is still the best machine for graphic work. The colour performance of a Mac alone is worth the change.
I work with both, PC and Mac. I don't use the PC for graphics, but I did so a few years ago, and very soon returned to Mac...
It’s a bit complicated for me because I really don’t understand the tech details. I use both PC and Mac, but I definitely prefer a PC.
I’m worried about having my whole life in a PC format. But I can try the change if it’s worth it. I just don’t want to end spending more for a pretty looking thing.
I could make my current machine run again, but it’s a constant pain. Always dying out of nowhere since the year I bought it back in 2010.
Thanks for the help!
Replace the motherdoard, processor and graphics card in the old computer, you can buy them already built. Add some extra ram too, it will run at the slower speed of the old ram until you can afford to replace them. Your old graphics card should fit but the onboard graphics on the new board will probably be a better spec until you can afford to buy a good card. None of this is difficult to do, I am on my third rebuild and heading for the fourth :-)
A PC is just a tool. More software and plugins for Pc. Lot's of software issues I read about, are affecting more people using a mac than a PC. Of course, I might be wrong, but that is my impression. And a mac is soooo expensive, Why?
on that system if you don't buy 16GB directly from Apple you will need to pry off the front panel to swap out the 8GB with the 16, it's not impossible but it's not a casual procedure. Apple charges an additional $200 for the 16GB.
I would also stay clear of the entry level iMac with i5, it's 1/2 CPU power of the model you are looking at and it's got 8GB soldered to the mobo so no RAM upgrade is possible.
The mac Mini's are long overdue for a model update and some in the mac community are wondering if the delay means they will pull the product line and try to steer buyers over to the iMac.
I've noticed in some of your earlier posts you lean towards LuxRender via Luxus. If that's the case the i7 makes far more sense than the i5 in powering that rendering engine.
Whether Mac or PC avoid All-in-One systems. These systems tend to be laptop components stuffed in to compact, stylish and proprietary cases making them difficult and expensive to expand and repair.
In the past I would agree with you, but I have several Mac all-in-ones I own or support and they have all been rock solid. If your a gear head internal expansion can be tricky with them but there are so many external and on-line options out now it's not nearly as limited as it was years ago. I don't know about the "PC" equivalent all-in-ones but Apple has been very reliable in my years of teching. The one thing that does get me is the new iMac line is intentionally difficult to upgrade RAM and it smack of being greedy on their part.
I've used prebuilt HP PC and never had problems with them. I upgraded the graphics cards, caus the default ones in my case where weak. Not one of them (I've had 3 I think) died on me, just got replaced due to old age.
EDIT: though I have to say the screens that came with them were crap too for 3d.
My current one I built myself to get the most value for $$$.
You could see if there are stores in your area that will built PCs for you and that will guarantee that the components will work together. It's kind of inbetween a prebuilt one and and customised PC. There is a store here in Belgium that will do that. It costs about 100$ on top of the component parts.
I definitely recommend an i7 over an i5 for 3D work.
For the equivalent price, a Windows machine will give you more bang for the buck.
This is especially true when you consider that an iMac uses Mobile components, like Graphics cards. You can usually (shopping at New Egg for example) buy and assemble the components for two or three Windows machines for the price of one Mac.
Also if you intend to use GPU powered LUX rendering, you are significantly better off with a Windows Desktop system with a high end nVidia Card. (Mostly because the nVidia card gives you more options.) The only way to get Desktop nVidia card on a Mac is to buy the previous model of Mac Pro and special Mac Pro nVidia cards, and for that price you can get three to four equivalent Windows machines.
For 3D graphics work, especially if you intend to tax the GPU, the only computer based reason to use a Mac is if you can't stand using Windows.
Note I have a 27" iMac with a 3.4ghz Quadcore CPU and a Windows based 3.4ghz Quad Core i7 on my desk, (along with 3 more Windows machines and 2 more Macs) and their performance in running DS or Carrara and rendering in either is equivalent. The Windows box has an nVidia GTX 770 for a graphics card and still cost about 60% of the iMac (which was purchased as a refurb.) and it only has a mobile AMD card for the graphics card.
Greetings,
I have misled you; I was afraid of that. Yeah, my work system is a iMac 27" i7 3.4GHz box, with 16GB of RAM. It's a powerhouse. As I said, it's video card is only 1G of VRAM, which is a little underpowered nowadays, and modern iMac's ship with 2GB of VRAM. Still, 2560x1440 is pretty awesome, and the larger display is so much nicer for working in DAZ.
The belief that you can get twice the power for half the cost with a custom-built PC (if you care about a quality build, at least) is not really true anymore. Doing the best I can on http://www.pugetsystems.com/configure.php (they build spectacularly good systems, btw!) to match a current version of my iMac's specifications, it's about $2687 (with Linux). Via Apple's site the same systems specs to $2478.00. Now that's including components you might already have, esp. the monitor (I specced a 2560x1440 27" monitor for the comparison), so it's not as straightforward, but the old trope about twice the system, half the price is just not true.
Note that that wasn't pointed at DAZ_Spooky, humorously, but at the earlier poster.
Sounds like your refurb is my desktop box. :) Do you count the cost of a 2560x1440 27" monitor in that PC box's price?For reference, if you do choose to get a PC again, I can't recommend http://www.pugetsystems.com strongly enough. Most of my current home non-Mac systems (my 2 linux boxes, 2 windows boxes, as opposed to my 2 Mac laptops, a Mac desktop and a Mac Mini) were built by them, they do amazing work. High quality, and they REALLY know their stuff. I have one Dell at home also (bought super-cheap as a Living Room PC for the 3 and 6yo to abuse) and it's shoddy construction, and crappy components.
-- Morgan
-- Morgan
Note my Home Computer is an AMD 8 core running 4ghz (on an ASUS Motherboard) , 32 gb of RAM, 2 nVidia GTX 570 cards a Hybrid 750GB (SSH) drive, a pair of 2TB drives, R/W BD drive and three 3D HD IPS Panels, is about he same age as this iMac and the parts cost just under $2100. I assembled it. (note that is either three1920x1080 screens or one 5760x1080 screen.)
Note I did say Buy the parts and assemble them, I did not say buy a "custom computer," and I stand by that assessment.
Apple sells refurbs of their systems, usually at around 90% of the cost of new.
Thank you for the replies, which are all really helpful.
Basically I am right now between these two options I'm attaching as images. A PC and a Mac of around the same cost. PC being slightly cheaper.
What are your thoughts about them?
Thanks!!
If I am reading it correctly, the Mac does not have a discrete Graphics card, it is an Intel Graphics Memory Accelerator. Which are much improved over what they were even 3 years ago, but are still not a replacement for a discrete Graphics card when talking about either 2D or 3D Graphics. Usually I won't recommend less than a nVidia GTX650M/750M for graphics work. (The M in those designations is Mobile and remember that mobile graphics cards have half the power of the non-mobile graphics cards.)
The only questions become the Power Supply rating (Both manufacturer and wattage), the number of RAM slots on the Motherboard, the number of available SATA ports on the Motherboard and the form factor of the Motherboard. (All of which are important for upgrading the computer later.)
Sorry, just addressing Cypherfox quickly to avoid any confusion. I don't think Macs are overpriced. I said that I (with emphasis on that "I") got a machine that’s twice as powerful for half the price. A Mac Pro was out of my price range, but I (personally) was able build a machine that outperforms a full spec iMac for half the price. There are also wide differences in cost depending on where in the world you're based.
As an exclusive Mac user of 25 years, I can say that I've always been happy with my Macs.. But to that end I have to say, if the majority of your 3D experience is with a PC, stick with what you know.
All of my knowledge of the PC is anecdotal; for example, while I have ample amounts of down-time at work, I no longer have internet access there to use my MacBook Pro because one of the other employee's PC laptops infected the local network with a virus.. They shut us off rather than try to hunt down the culprit and discipline accordingly. I've never had a virus in all those years and never worried about it.
People here seem to do quite well with their PC setups, I hardly ever hear a debate about it. If you're wanting to switch to the Mac ask yourself why and make sure it's not just the 'shiny new thing' syndrome that's driving the decision.. if it is you'll probably regret it.
Actually I don’t want to switch to a Mac, but I’m open to do it if it’s worth it.
If the Mac from my OP is a good choice for what I need (Photos, graphic and editorial design, 3D rendering (DAZ Studio, LuxRender)… More or less demanding stuff, things you can see in my gallery...), then I don’t have a problem with the switch.
I’m just worried I’m not spending my money wisely and I’m basically between those two options right now.
Hey Hellboy,
I recently made the switch to a 21" iMac and other than having a hard time with the file system on Mavericks, I haven't looked back. It has two i5 chips, an nVidia graphics card (forget which one), and 8 gig of ram. I agree with Polka Dot about graphics looking better on the monitor. And Spooky is right in that macs are generally more expensive than PC but my own personal opinion is that they are built better. The only other thing to offer is that the iMac is not upgradable except for the ram. I could be wrong on that though.
Good Luck.
I'm not a fan of Mac by far but there are few points for them. They are well built and their Aesthetic/ease of use seem pleasant for a lot of people. It is also easier to resell a Mac than a PC.
The Mac OS is built on a BSD architecture, which is very good and I think there are less worms/trojan/virus targetting Mac than PC
PC can be cheaper and the configuration is more adaptable to one's need, and are more evolutive. You also have a bigger advantage on the software side as the offering is well above what can be found for Mac.
About your two configs, the PC is better and as it seems you use Luxrender, you may need to buy an additional card if you want GPU rendering on the Mac. Take at least a 2Gb Vram Video Card. The Gtx 750 is not bad but it is better to take the GTX 750 Ti. However, I'm not sure an ATI card wouldn't be better for Luxrender as there is actually a bug in Nvidia's OpenCL and GPU render doesn't work half of the time. Don't know when it will be corrected but I hope it will be soon
I've always owned a Mac at home, and always had to use a PC at work. I would never buy a PC. I've never had a problem with a Mac. I've never had to have one fixed or serviced. I've never had to call Apple with a question. I've never had one virus. The Mac has never chrashed. The Mac freezes, maybe once a year. Almost all the software I use has a Mac version. It's an absolute pleasure using a Mac. It's a beautiful machine, and a beautiful interface. If I had to make a choice between a Mac, and a PC that was twice as fast and half the price, I would, without question, buy the Mac.
Greetings,
Between those two, the PC configuration is pretty much strictly better, but again, you're not getting a monitor, which comes as part of the iMac.If you have a really good, color correct monitor already, then you're probably golden. I run dual screen at work, with a Samsung generic monitor paired with my 27" iMac. I have tried, over and over, to calibrate the damn Samsung to look anywhere near as good as the built-in iMac monitor, but it has never managed it. (This is why I use it just for tool windows, for example.) It's amazing to drag a beautiful image from the main screen to it, and it just gets...dingy. I don't have the words for it beyond that.
Folks are down on Macs (and before OS X I would NOT consider buying one, as the OS was absolutely terrible) but price for value isn't as bad as folks say. As DAZ_Spooky said, if you hand-build your system, you can probably get a better price, as it looks like you are. Unless you're a professional system builder, pieces will fail, you'll forget to tighten some things down or static-proof yourself, you'll probably not install the heat-sink quite right, and little stuff like that, that isn't _broken_ per se, but shortens the life of your system. If it dies you are your own tech support (as it sounds like you have been for a while). When I was younger, I was cool with that, and did it all the time, as my personal time was inexpensive. Nowadays, I want a professional to do the build, and I want to be able to call them up 5 years later for help. It comes down to how much your time is worth, and that's a fuzzy, open-ended thing.
My time has stopped being entirely my own and so is precious to me, and thus I have stopped spending the time to build a system manually, as it's FAR more expensive if you factor time in.
So let me qualify; if you have the time to build it, and be your own tech support (and you either buy, or already have a top quality monitor!), then build your own, yes.
And that i7 is pretty nice. I envy you the resulting system. :)
-- Morgan
If you don't want to switch to a Mac, why would you even consider it?
I say that as a dedicated Mac person.
What are the benefits of Mac?
1. It is basically skinned Unix. Under the hood is the BSD or Linus operating system (I forget which). If you're a techie this is a big selling point. Unix is both stable and secure. But as of Windows 8; I hear Windows has finally cleaned house of the last of its DOS-era inherited flaws.
2. The hardware is more stable. Mac parts are less likely to break down. This is because of stronger quality control, but ALSO because they are NOT cutting edge parts... The control Apple exercises on production also leads to higher pricing...
3. We have vastly superior monitors. No one else comes close to an Apple Monitor. But if money is not a problem, you can buy an Apple Monitor and use it... with anything. They do sell a $1000 monitor that is nothing but a monitor. But you know... Samsung Monitors come pretty close - its why my iMac sits to the right of my Samsung Monitor so I can be dual-monitor.
4. You can run windows on it. This might seem silly... but you can boot into OSX or Windows if you buy yourself a copy of Windows. But then... there is 'hackintosh' which is a reskinning of Linux I think made to run OSX software...
- Each of those "advantages" is really a balanced thing. With plusses and minuses.
One big negative for Mac... they don't own their own factories. They are dependent on a Chinese supplier. This is less critical in the laptop / desktop area than in the mobile arena. In mobile this is why they are lagging behind Samsung, at an ever increasing pace... Samsung, in the 1990s, did what the entire world thought was insane and built its own manufacturing plants for every stage of development in Korea. I actually worked a job right after I got out of the military - installing US made robotics in the Samsung plant in Ki-Hong South Korea.
- So... why care if this is a mobile issue? Because eventually this is going to cycle into a problem for laptops / desktops too. Eventually those will suffer from Apple having to set its pace by the demands of the Chinese government and whatever plants it is using that year...
Eventually, the pace of development will slow for Mac hardware.
But that could be years away, or next month.
If you're decidedly not a Mac person though, why switch? What motivates you?
All of the tools here work in Windows. Some like Bryce DO NOT work in current Mac...
Not just China. My iMac was assembled in Ireland.
Assembly can happen anywhere. My comment should be read as in reference to the semiconductor / chip making factory itself. Where they're pouring those silicon wafers and etching chips into them. Apple not only gave up control of that (as is true of almost every brand) - they did so to exclusive contracts in a different country.
You want your chip designers and the chip making to be one system if you want to be the cutting edge. Right now, only Samsung does that. This is really ALSO an issue for most PCs as well - so you can't really escape it. But in mobile, its what's helping Samsung pull ahead (in tech, they still lag in sales)
What I forgot to state above that brings it back to relevant is the 'closed system' issue. Apple is a closed system - so the pace of everything is dictated by one management team. In the PC world competing suppliers means you have more options, and no-one can say "we're not going to adopt that technology" and have it stick to the entire PC world.
I personally love the Mac. I really like the operating system - it has a flow to it that makes sense to me. I love that I need to do so little to maintain it. Files and performance don't decay over time from things like 'ghost DLLs' and half-uninstalled programs in a registry...
My iMac today runs as well as it did in 2011 when I bought it.
Nothing beats the quality of my display.
I've had almost no crashes in the life of the system - though I have had at least one I cannot recall why, I just remember it did occur once.
The aesthetics of the machine suit me... but this is a dumb reason to buy... :)
They keyboard is better - though I upgraded to the wired one with a numpad. The design keeps things like food crumbs from getting stuck inside (and yet $14.95 on Amazon will match this for a PC if you just buy a gel-keyboard or something).
I barely know what a computer virus is... (well not really, because I used to have PCs and I run windows in bootcamp...)
BUT none of these reasons relate back to 3D art. For that - I'm not sure there are any benefits to motivate a person to switch from what they know to something different.