Just what are overlapping UVs, anyway?
JQP
Posts: 511
Everything was going great. The GSuit was the only suit for Genesis that fit my needs (single, whole-body suit with no holes). Then I find out that it, like apparently all Genesis clothing, has overlapping UVs. I'm trying to wrap (haha) my head around what that even means. Isn't the whole point of a UV that you lay a 3d model's surface out on A SINGLE SURFACE so it's two dimensional, so you can work with it in a 2d paint program? Please tell me what's two dimensional about overlapping UVs. I'd also like to know what their purpose is, other than to throw a giant monkey wrench into my Bodypaint workflow.
Even better would be some way of doing 3d painting on this stuff without changing the UVs. I want my maps to work with the default clothing, and thus, with the default UVs. I know I can still paint in the 3d window but that was only half of my Bodypaint workflow. The other half was sending the rough draft into Photoshop along with a texture template so I could finish the work.
Sorry for the ranting tone. I'm in a rant kind of mood. I find myself once again wondering just how much auto-fit and an armslength morph is really worth to me. My workflow works just fine with V4/M4 clothing. If I knew of a whole body suit with no holes for those figures, my mind would be made up already and I'd be ditching Genesis.
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Are you referring to the multiple maps? That is different than overlapping. I haven't worked with Bodypaint in ages, so I don't remember if it works with multiple maps. In a program such as Modo, I can lay out the uvs by setting up UV tiles so that each map has its own tile.
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I'm not sure what modeler you use, but it may be able to do this as well.
The problem seems to be that I don't know how to model, or make/manipulate UVs, or any of that stuff, and apparently none of the 3d paint programs know how to handle DAZ's overlapping UVs. When I go into Bodypaint, I feel like someone just sat me down in a space shuttle. I know just enough to get the workflow in place and paint textures.
By "overlapping," I mean, when I import the OBJ into Bodypaint and look at the UVs in the texture pane, they overlap. If I paint on the texture in the texture pane where the UVs overlap, I wind up with brush strokes showing up in two places on the model. Painting in projection mode seems to work fine. But I need to be able to move the image I get into Photoshop and lay it over a texture template to finish the work, and I don't see how that's going to be possible.
I wasn't kidding when I said I don't really even know what overlapping UVs are. Makes no sense to me at all.
Overlapping UVs are when the islands are all layed out on top of one another rather than sprawled out in a single layer.
To put it in general terms, take a pile of laundry.
Lay them out neatly so you can clearly see each item and they don't touch each other. This is how UVs should look.
Now, throw it all into one giant pile so you can't tell one from the other. This is what overlapping UVs would look like. lol
I can take a screen shot of what I'm seeing, if that would help.
What I can't get is how BP can make the UVs work in projection mode, but totally screw it up in texture view. And I can't get what anyone is thinking making UVs like this, for any good, user-friendly purpose (I can definitely see why someone would include it as a form of sabotage).
I suppose I can learn how to make my own UVs. But the work from that is going to pile up if I'm going to need to make new UVs for every model I need to send to BP. And I'm going to have to learn how to get the new UVs into the clothing.
Yeah, what Chris describes is the same thing you're seeing, but laid out differently in Modo.
If the whole body was UV mapped to fit into one square, we'd need a massive image resolution for it to look nice. Doing it this way puts a huge strain on our computers while we're painting, and it's often impossible to work this way. Instead, the body is broken down to material zones:head, toros, arms/legs, etc, with each material using the appropriate texture file, at a more manageable resolution.
So the solution is to have Bodypaint recognize the materials applied to the model, or if it can't; create them manually.
I am not familiar with bodypaint but carrara 3D paint one simply creates a save file for each map
then when you paint it brush strokes do not appear on multiple maps at once
it would if you just painted the whole object with one map but you simple do a save for each surface in the drop down menu
surely Bodypaint would have something similar as most things have multiple surfaces using separate maps.
here we go, a quick Google
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB_ZxHNwtlg
Yep, you're lucky that BodyPaint can handle the multiple maps as Barb shows in that video. Different programs handle things similar or very different and some can't work with multiple maps at all, though there can sometimes be workarounds. In Blender, I can't lay out the maps in tiling like I can for Modo or Mudbox, but I they can be accessed through materials similar to how BodyPaint works.
Thanks, Wendy, for finding that video.
So basically, just to reiterate, the DAZ figures have multiple maps. If you imagine each map as a piece of paper, they were stacked on top of each other and when you painted on the them, the colors bled through to all the maps in the stack. Some programs want you to line up the papers so they are side by side, like Modo, and others, like BodyPaint, want you to designate the maps by use of materials. It's just a matter of know how your particular program needs you to have things set up. Does that help explain?
In Blender you need to open an UV/Image Editor window, select the material zones that belong on the same map, create new image file for them, rinse and repeat until all material zones are assigned an image file.
Each material zone UV map on its own layer, is different from overlapping UVs on the same layer. You need software that recognizes the different material zones.
I'm on dialup that maxes out at about half its nominal 56k, so I can't watch videos.
Part of my workflow is to bring the texture into Photoshop and layer a texture template over it at lowered opacity. How am I supposed to do that with these nonsensical overlapping UVs? I could use Stitch Witch to make a texture template for the GSuit if it had normal UVs. But not with these Quantum Mechanics UVs that I don't even understand what they are.
Well the video proved it has the ability so I would suggest you read the manual.
You need to make several templates, one for each group of textures - you can see which go together by looking at the maps used by a current set, or by the names on Genesis and earlier (where the surfaces are numbered by the group they go in).
First, they are not a form of sabotage, but are a space saving and optimized way to share UV space for a mesh model. They separate into their own maps via material/shader zones defining each map "stacked" (not overlapping) usually designated by a group number (maps 1, 2, 3, etc.), or just by the name of the MAT zone.
This allows for several UV-ed islands to each have their own map at full UV scale, so you may paint higher details without having to resort to gigantic maps for singular layed out mapping (all islands layed out on one UV layer with no island overlapping).
You just need to find out how your painting software can handle to paint on the individual assigned maps. When I work with these UV mappings I first load the mesh model into D3D's UV-Viewer, and export out all separate maps by their group designations (map 1, 2, 3, etc) to be used for painting. UV-Viewer allows you to quickly turn off all layers except the one you want to export (which can also be done in UV Mapper Pro/Classic). Export, adjust, repeat... This is what Richard is talking about above.
D3D's UV-Viewer (free):
http://d3d.sesseler.de/index.php?software=other&product=uv_viewer
Second, here, I believe, is a better analogy for you; Think of the stacked UV mapping as a stack of dinner plates (let's say eight) that you want to custom paint golden flowers onto each individual one. They are in a nice stack to save space while stored in the cupboard.
Now, you can paint on the top most plate on the stack, but if you wish to paint on any others you will have to place each one separated from the stack next to each other on a table. Once all separated, paint on them, let dry, then stack back into a nice pile for space saving storage in the cupboard.
Yes, the digital stack is different, and if there are no UV/MAT zone assignments there would not be individual plates, but more like you are painting on a stack of cheesecloth where the top painted one seeps down onto the others.
Hope this helps clarify stacked UV's a little better for you...
Thanks for this! Not once have I ever looked in his 'other software' category and have completely missed this.
Consider adding Blender to your toolkit. With it you can easily export the various UV layouts associated with the different materials and even (best option) directly paint on the model (something which makes the old seams problem moot).
So will bodypaint from what I saw on video.
The OP just needs to learn how by reading/viewing something that does not stress his dialup limits
the fault lies not in how the figure is mapped, the majoritory of 3D models use multiple maps but the lack of knowledge of how to paint this.
Thanks to everyone trying to help out in this thread. Daremo, thanks for mentioning UV Viewer, sounds like that might solve my problem. The workflow sounds like it'll still a step backwards in terms of workload (loading 1 map for everything's easier than having to load 3 or 4 or whatever it will end up being), but at least it sounds like it'll work.
A friend has broadband. So I can go to her place and download the video if I'm confident it's worth the trouble (20m drive each way), or if I'm already making the trip. Thanks for pointing it out (I was hoping to resolve the issue with less hassle, but we can't always get what we want. :) ).
And yes, BP has 3d projection painting. Which isn't to say I'd rule out going with a different application, but I'm already a bit familiar with the BP workflow, so I'd rather stay with BP if it makes sense to do so.
I don't use body paint but I do use Zbrush...to export the texture maps it requires you to hide all the parts except the one for the map you are using.
Otherwise you will get a map just like you described with the maps overlaying one another it is not a fault of the mapping but a restriction of the program you're working with.
I don't know your program but in Zbrush you have to create a map from polypaint by hiding everything else and then go to texture maps create new map from polypaint. Then you have to export your maps using the multimap exporter.
I would imagine Body Paint has a similar process...