Carrara fading into the sunset
primeuser
Posts: 10
Carrara "was" a great program four to five years ago. With its landscapes, poser figure support, some actual dynamics and a good rendering engine it was the best system for casual users. But, then almost all development stopped. Sure bullet physics was added ( but in some cases it works worse than the original) and *partial* genesis character support, but the actual development and progression of the program itself stopped. So now, Carrara is three to four generations behind where it should be. And if nothing is done, it will simply die a slow death.
If Carrara was upgraded to its full potential, customers would be willing to shell out money for it easy. Look at the people shelling out money for Iclone with its limited (but increasing steadily) potential. Carrara with improved landscaping and vegetation, weight mapped dynamics of hair, cloth, soft bodies, a real time dx11 or 12 render for previews and game quality rendering, full genesis support....well, just these features alone would drive it back to the number one spot for casual users. Lots of Blender users would kill for the models and animations available to Carrara users, but are unwilling to abandon the advanced features of Blender for the simplicity of DAZ or Carrara.
So, please don't just let Carrara fade away into the sunset of pleasant memories. Upgrade it or sell it to someone who will.
$0.02
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Comments
Is Carrara fading into the sunset... I don't think so!
Last week I bought the Carrara 8.5 pro, and followed up with the Mark Bremmer's Carrara 7.5 tutorial package.
iclone 6 released yesterday, along with the Indigo Render thing.
Here are some things I have found to compare
Carrara has the tools to edit primitives and other content items
Carrara has a terrain builder with automatic things that speed up the process
Carrara has shader ability that is excellent
Carrara has the plant modeler, the new iclone has the Trees application
Carrara has superior replication methods
Carrara has ability to create and edit hair and skies
Carrara has particles and natural elements
Carrara has modelers, currently I only use pre-built charcter models.
The following is my experience with the past verion 5.5 of iclone
Reallusion has the 3Dxchange to import Daz and Carrara characters into iclone.
Reallusion has a superior timeline and keyframing with presets for more efficiency
Reallusion has motion creation and editing that can be saved and applied almost instantly
Reallusion has motion tools that have presets for many popular motions and variations of the motions.
Reallusion has instant rendering on the fly for reviewing animations
Reallusion has facial animation with large number of presets
Reallusion has lipsync visme that is excellent
Reallusion has large number of animation files, which saves a ton of time.
So... this list compares the iclone 5.5 version, which was replaced with the iclone 6 version yesterday.
The iclone 6 version experience is a quantum leap above iclone 5.5 as far as I know at this point.
Carrara is not a waste of time and effort..
There are excellent features of Carrara that will improve iclone experience.
There is no way at this point I can see Carrara can possibly do better than iclone for producing videos.
A simple way of comparison - iclone uses a broad brush and Carrara uses a fine brush
I say this, because Carrara doesn't have the presets.
Carrara has the ability to do so many things with a vast array of options for almost everything.
This is good stuff for sure, but it takes alot of experience to learn how to apply the options.
iclone summarizes and specifys, which is in most cases adequate overall for producing high quality videos faster.
The list above may be added to by more experienced Carrara users.
My list above was created from my experience watching and studying the Carrara tutorial materials over the past week
I would be very pleased to read of things I missed about Carrara.
Nothing would please me more.
Note: I do not produce anything for gaming or other animation work, only video.
There are iclone users that frequent these forums, and they may be able to shed light on the iclone 6.
I just haven't had any time to work with it , only read a few postings on the iclone forums.
Merry Christmas
Hi primeuser,
Can I ask a sincere question? I have had Carrara since version 8 but have only really been using it actively the last two months or so and I have yet to encounter any problems at all using either Genesis or Genesis 2 male or female or any of their content (aside from some shaders since subsurface settings don't translate between the two) in Carrara. Despite that, almost every week someone posts about how poorly Carrara supports the Genesis figures and I am really curious what people are trying to do that doesn't work.
The figures take some time to load, but once loaded I can pose them, auto-fit clothes to them, texture them, animate them, apply any of the shape presets to them, use all the dialed options I have purchased for them... all with no issues at all.
So I am curious - what do you mean by "full genesis support?" What is missing?
Thank you,
Mark
EDIT TO ADD: although I bought Carrara with version 8, I didn't start using it until after 8.5 came out and 8.5 is the only version I have ever used.
So, I don't want to sound like a curmudgeon here, and some of the gripes are legitimate, however the low post count and the emphasis on iClone and Blender (both fine programs) makes me fear that the OP is trolling for controversy.
We have had, and will continue to have these threads come up with people making general doom and gloom statements about Carrara. Being an Apple user from the dark days, I can tell you they are just masturbatory threads that don't do any good except feed an echo chamber of anxiety. Even if DAZ released Carrara 9 tomorrow we would have half the people bitch that Carrara was doomed because this feature was not updated or that feature was not added. This gives thread actually gives me more hope for Carrara's future, even if it is a bug fix. Notice that not all the fixes were Content related.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/48629/
None of us knows what is going on with Carrara development, just as none of us knew what Apple was doing until they dropped the Bondi Blue iMac and iPod on us. Now look at Apple. It is a far cry when Michael Dell made the famous remark that the Apple board of directors should lock the doors and return the money to the shareholders.
I would point out a couple similarities between us old Apple users and Carrara users:
1) In the dark days at Apple, there was a small and rabid user base. They were usually creative types. Carrara also has a small, creative and rabid user base.
2) Pundits and forum trolls regularly spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) by declaring Apple dead, despite signs of life. We Carrara users have these same types of threads crop up fairly regularly as well.
3) These types of threads tend to feed the anxiety of the user base, and have the potential to scare off potential new users who may come to the forum for research and see thread titles like this one. More users equals more support folks! Apple ran into these issues as well. Bad press and FUD scared away potential purchasers. Apple actually hired an a guy as an Apple Evangelist to combat the mis- and dis-information being flung around by ignorant pundits.
Now, keep in mind I am not saying Carrara and DAZ 3D is ever going to be like Apple, I'm just pointing out that none of us knows the future and I think it is a bit premature to write the obituary.
So, this leads me to two questions for the OP:
1) Do you actually use Carrara? With only four posts I have to ask. You could be regurgitating stuff you've read here or more likely at Rendo where the gloom and doomers tend to hang out more.
2) Is that you ManStan? ;-) It sounds like his stuff and he has tried to get around a ban or two before.
I totally agree about the need for an evangelist from DAZ who will help to dissipate the irrational fear, uncertainty and doubt, and clear up any misinformation. In fact I believe they already have someone who can perform that role. Someone with the title "Carrara Product Manager", or "Software Product Manager", if those titles still exist.
The problem I see is not really irrational FUD or misinformation. Most of the FUD seems based on fairly rational reasoning. And there really is not much misinformation that I've seen. You give away your software for free, so it's reasonable that users will speculate that you are no longer going to invest much money or resources in a free product. You give no real information on the future of your product for years, so it's reasonable for users to speculate there is no future. Your beta version after almost a year, has no significant feature improvements, so you assume that it's sole purpose is as a content vehicle. Seems totally reasonable to me. And something that DAZ can easily refute.
The problem here is that DAZ has been totally silent on just the basic information about the future of Carrara and other software. The reason these threads keep popping up is that there is NO information from DAZ whatsoever. I find it difficult to blame users for rational speculation on stuff like that. Because many users have a legitimate need to know the future of their software. Should they continue to invest time and money and beta testing hours into a software that is not going where they hope it will go? That is a legitimate concern. Should they start looking elsewhere for better solutions?
Sure, if people are spreading misinformation, then DAZ should clarify. That's their job, to manage their products and their marketing.
The basic problem is that DAZ says nothing. Now I'm fully aware they are limited in what they can say about future development plans, but just as an Apple evangelist can clarify information about their products, so can DAZ. But they don't. That, IMO, is the problem here. It's not the users' responsibility to manage DAZ products and marketing and perceptions. It's DAZ's responsibility.
So yeah, let's clear up information that we can as users, and dispel any irrational fears if they are indeed irrational. But keep in mind that DAZ is responsible for Carrara, not us.
Yes, I agree that the OP had some legit gripes, and that DAZ 3D could do much more to dispel the FUD. My issue is that I'm not convinced the OP is legitimate and is here to stir things up. I say this because of the low post count and the pointed mention of two pieces of software- one for sure that has just had a new version released.
That, and there is this thread that was also just started:
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/50149/
I don't wish to sound paranoid, but the OP in the linked thread also has a very low post count. It just seems a little too convenient to me. Another flag for me is that in both threads, the OPs have yet to post any responses.
I am willing to concede I am wrong on both counts, and if I am, then I sincerely apologize. However, that brings up my second issue. We have a thread that was started previously, and while it is a bit different, it also implies the same conclusion, that Carrara is basically dead and DAZ sucks. Do we really need two threads that essentially go 'round and 'round about essentially the same things?
The OP has been a member since 2004 and is a PC member so prob familiar with DAZ at least and maybe Carrara if not terribly posty.
As a user of iClone, Carrara, DAZ studio and sometimes Poser I myself find each fills differrent holes and make a complete toolkit, my only regret is Hexagon does not play nice for me, as it has some tools I would love deeply to use but alas it hates me with a passion freezing at any time it chooses or deciding to just not work right from the start.
Blender of course does everything if you enjoy that user interface!!
DS is a great pose and render DAZ dolly suite
iClone a great animation tool for rendering movies using bought or imported content
Carrara is a bit of everything so like comparing a top range drill and a band saw to a small workshop!!!
Work IS being done on it but DAZ prioritizes selling content, to iClone users too
Carrara users on the other hand often create and rig their own content and it works well in iClone btw too!
That is why I love all my tools.
With the creation of the new forums, I've read complaints about inaccurate join dates, so I'll just take it under advisement. Besides, four posts even in the timeframe of the new forums is suspicious, especially starting threads such as this. PC membership also is irrelevant to me as well. I don't see how it makes someone less or more likely to be legitimate just because they joined a purchasing club.
And I agree. They are all useful tools and what they are and where they fit in a person's workflow is determined by their interests, their goals, etc.
Hi primeuser,
Can I ask a sincere question? I have had Carrara since version 8 but have only really been using it actively the last two months or so and I have yet to encounter any problems at all using either Genesis or Genesis 2 male or female or any of their content (aside from some shaders since subsurface settings don't translate between the two) in Carrara. Despite that, almost every week someone posts about how poorly Carrara supports the Genesis figures and I am really curious what people are trying to do that doesn't work.
The figures take some time to load, but once loaded I can pose them, auto-fit clothes to them, texture them, animate them, apply any of the shape presets to them, use all the dialed options I have purchased for them... all with no issues at all.
So I am curious - what do you mean by "full genesis support?" What is missing?
Thank you,
Mark
EDIT TO ADD: although I bought Carrara with version 8, I didn't start using it until after 8.5 came out and 8.5 is the only version I have ever used.
I have somewhat of a similar experience, there are little things here and there, but Genesis (and indeed even Genesis2) work fine for me in Carrara, at least there are certainly no showstopper issues. Somehow an 'urban legend' has sprung up (probably by folks who don't ever use Carrara) that Carrara can't use Genesis or Genesis2. It doesn't seem to matter how many times this is refuted, or people post renders done in Carrara of Genesis and Genesis2 in animations and stills, the ignorance persists. It's weird.
Back to earth, here in the real world here are the only issues with Genesis that I have run into:
1 - The M5/V5 genitals work, but don't transmap correctly, meaning the uv's are all screwed up and they don't show the textures right. I haven't tested M6/V6 genitals, but I hear the same thing is true for them too. This could be a real problem for those doing hardcore close up Poser porn sex scenes. For the other 99.99% of us, this isn't much of an issue. Also Artini posted a thread for a workaround method to make the genitals behave and look right a while back (I haven't tested the method he came up with, but I heard it worked, so there's even a solution for those who are willing to roll up the sleeves and try something different).
2 - DSF and DUF poses and mats don't seem to load for me and make Genesis revert back to default androgynous unmorphed state when I try to apply them. The Genesis won't respond to any further morphs and if I make the mistake of doing this I usually have to delete Genesis out of my scene and then add a new one back in. Poser style poses though still seem to work just fine, so it's a matter of using the pz2 files instead to apply poses I want. And also I'm not about to use any textures in Carrara that were designed for another program anyway. I build my own library and apply Carrara optimized textures, the way I like them, instead. So not much of an issue.
3 - Genesis2 doesn't seem to autofit clothes for V4/M4, and has indifferent results autofitting Genesis clothes. No biggie, I have Genesis2 clothes and they work fine.
4 - Genesis and especially Genesis2 can have poke through issues. The pokeaway product works great to correct this for both figures.
5 - V4/M4 shoes don't autofit all that great to Genesis. Again, no biggie, I have Genesis shoes that work much better.
I have seen some other random weirdness with Genesis2, but nothing replicatable consistently. Basically there are a few little things that aren't 100% perfect. Nothing that's a showstopper.
I hear that opinion a lot and I nearly always bite my tongue so as not hurt anyone's feelings, especially in the Commons, but personally I really don't agree. I loathe the Studio interface, and for me it's one of the most non-intuitive and difficult programs to pose in. As for the render quality, yikes. The good Studio renders I've seen were done with Reality, Luxus, or Octane. The very best and most accomplished/expert users of the native Studio renderer turn out renders that are C+ or possibly B- at best. While I'm no fan of Poser, at least since Poser9/10 the renderer is actually capable of making some good looking and fairly realistic people. Studio... eh, I just don't see it.
I agree with the philosophy expressed though, whatever the best tools for a person's workflow and whatever they are most comfortable with, are the right tools for that particular person, and who am I to judge? Having more tools in the toolkit is only a good thing.
Sorry, not trying to hate on anyone's favorite app if there are serious Studio fans around. Eh, I'll probably think the better of it and pull this post down in an hour when I'm thinking more clearly, just tired of biting my tongue whenever Studio come sup, and it irks me that DAZ actually lists Studio as it's comparison software with stuff like C4D, 3CS, Lightwave and Maya, and somehow doesn't even mention Carrara (which actually compares much much better with those high end expensive softwares) at all.
That I doubt very much! I've been doing a lot of learning Blender and visiting the Blenderartists forum and have never come across anyone who craves Daz dollies. Blenderheads are very much of the DIY variety and are more inclined to use cartoon figures than real, life-like humans, when they use humans at all. They mainly do hard-bodies and SFX.
For those who want to use life-like humans, MCJ has a plugin which ports from DS and optimises the shaders for Cycles to produce a better out-the- box render of G2, etc, than either Studio or Carrara. It is a simple enough to rig and animate Daz figures in Blender using this plugin, but the only use I've seen of it is by DS users wanting to use the free Cycles instead of paying for Reality and Octane.
I actually use G2M and F in C8.5 a lot too.
with their own clothes and stuff saved as a support asset in studio after conversion they generally work ok but I never save scenes with them because those give me the issues.
Am very disappointed with the slow development of Carrara. I spent 3 years using it. I think Carrara has so much potential to be great.
I have just moved over to daz Studio 4.7 to render my characters out with the help of Reality 4. Presently going through the learning stage.
I will come back to Carrara 9 if and when it is released.