Strategy and Workflow

starboard

There is an old saying, obviously ancient, and obviously by someone with a poor sense of direction, "That all roads lead to Rome" What this does not mention is that some of the roads go over mountains and some go through swamps. I seem to keep taking the roads that go through the swamps. Before I get bogged down in another fiasco I thought it might be wiser to ask directions first. In other words what is the best overall approach or strategy. For example: I am trying to develop characters that are facially unique. This is what I have in mind..

1. Take an M4 or a G2 and delete the skeleton.
2. Export as an .obj to Sculptress.
3. modify the face in sculptress
4. Export to DAZ and attach a skeleton.
5. Export/import into Carrara where clothes are added...
6. The figure is ready for animation and I break out the beer..

Although this sounds like somebody who knows what he is doing - don't be fooled by the glib prose - I'm a fraud. I hardly have a clue. I have followed PhillW's tutorials, deleted a skeleton from an M4 - but I could not after importing a figure into DAZ Studio attach a skeleton. Also I have just downloaded Sculptress a couple of days ago and I am just beginning to learn its interface. However if I knew that this was a good workable approach, then I could learn what was necessary. As the song says, "Climb every mountain, ford every stream...." I'm ready for the Alps - I just need a good road map.

Starboardtack

PhilW

If you can't create the character you want by playing with the available morphs, my next line of attack would be to create your own morphs on the figure, which you can do in Carrara. You don't need to delete the skeleton (and then re-attach it later) to do this. Let us know if you need help with creating your own morphs, the process is a little convoluted but I think this would be your best bet - and not nearly as convoluted as the approach that you outlined!

Diomede

I don't use ZBrush, but here is a video in which ZBrush is integrated directly with Carrara with a for sale product.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAScZRB7y5g

You can also create morph targets in Carrara, or load morph targets that you make in other programs like ZBrush or Hexagon or...

From the top menu in Carrara,click the "Help" tab to bring up a pdf of the manual (old version, I know, but useful for this example). Starting on page 250 it will explain how to create custom morphs in Carrara's vertex modeler.

Diomede

@msteaka - just saw your note in another thread.

Yes, within Carrara, the ability to make morphs for figures is greatly simplified if the figures are generation 4 or earlier (Michael 4, Michael 3, Victoria 4, Stephanie Petite, The Freak, Poser 7 Simon, etc.). Or, rather, it may be more correct to say that the process is complicated within Carrara if you try to use Genesis or Genesis2 because Daz has chosen to protect the topology, thus the errors. However, you can make morphs for Genesis and Genesis2. There is a Dazwiki somewhere that explains the process which we can try to track down. I think there is a link to it in the "Carrara Resources" thread by Dartanbeck that is stickied at the top of the forum.

Diomede

Well, here is the top menu for the creating content information from Daz.

http://docs.daz3d.com/doku.php/public/software/dazstudio/4/userguide/creating_content/start

EDIT: This has a lot of stuff for Genesis. If you will be morphing for M4, I recommend starting with the old Carrara manual in the help tab,

starboard

Phill,
I am trying to build characters for a documentary for the web on Captain Cook, oddly this also involves Benjamin Franklin..Both well known facially ( at least in some quarters and those lucky to have a $100 bill). So I am trying to get a specific likeness. I have played around with G2 and M4 for a bout a week tweaking the Model morphs and I can get somewhat close . It takes a kind a eye and a lot of squinting to believe it is the intended. I was able to make my own morphs in M4 - thanks to your tutorials- but could not pull them off in G2. It would be far better to remain snugly home in Carrara I agree. One of the reasons I was thinking of this Carrara/Sculptress/Carrara pathway was because of your tutorial on "Insect Man" 601-609. I could see how you could fine tune the mesh in that program. But, if you simply made the head in Sculptress and brought it into Carrara and substituted it for say M4 head (then made the M4 head invisible) how would you ever make the eyes blink, etc. I could see another quagmire opening in front of me.. Thats why I thought I better get some advice from members of the forum.

Incidentally., the project is well along ( I am hoping). What I have been lacking is close ups of figures - therefore the need to work in Carrara. I have up until now worked in Infini D (no figures) an increasingly distant relative of Carrara - so distant I don't think we are invited to the Xmas party anymore. I will include a few stills of the video clips so that you can see where it all fits in.

Thanks again for your input.

Starboardtack

starboard

Diomede64.
Thanks for the information. I feel like I am getting a little overwhelmed with the responses.. I think from what your saying I should stay with M4..Thats good I am starting to get comfortable with that guy. Do you think I could paint on the m4 model - either using 3d paint or painting on the face texture map/ I think if I could paint on the facial detail it might work.
Although I cannot respond right now I will be following up all your suggestions.

Starboardtack

Diomede

msteaka said:

Diomede64.
Thanks for the information. I feel like I am getting a little overwhelmed with the responses.. I think from what your saying I should stay with M4..Thats good I am starting to get comfortable with that guy. Do you think I could paint on the m4 model - either using 3d paint or painting on the face texture map/ I think if I could paint on the facial detail it might work.
Although I cannot respond right now I will be following up all your suggestions.

Starboardtack

Yes, you can easily paint M4. More than one way to do it. Here are 2.
- Load the M4 texture map that you want to alter in Photoshop or other editor of your choice. Save it under a new name. Make any changes that you want to the duplicate (so that you don't inadvertently change your original). Load the new file as the texture.
- or, within Carrara, if you have the PhilW tutorial for advanced, he has a section on using the paint tool to make skintight clothes. You can use the same concepts to paint on the head.

Edit to add "within Carrara"

Diomede

BTW - looks like a great project. Love the sea scenes.

starboard

Diiomede64
I like the painting using the paint tool. If I can see what I am painting on the face that should work out fine. I will review Phill's tape. This may work out yet. Especially if I don't have to leave Carrara. I am starting to work on the M4. re-newed enthusiasm.

Thanks again,
thanks for the compliment. i guess we all work in private. Feedback is nice.

Starboardtack

PhilW

Superb images - great atmosphere and detail! And an interesting project too. I think your points have been answered well by others but let us know if you are still having problems - and keep us in touch with your progress!

starboard

Phill
Thanks for the feedback. I think I am fine now.. Diomede64 has pushed me in the right direction. If I can paint on the face.. textures and perhaps even some displacement..I think I'll be fine. A lot better than I anticipated. Thanks again to this Forum.

Starboardtack

JoeMamma2000

For what it's worth, here's my $.02 for deciding what your strategy and workflow should be:

You mentioned you're going to try to duplicate Ben Franklin, and perhaps some other famous folks, and those lucky enough to have a $100 bill have an image of him. I'd suggest you google Ben Franklin, then click "Images", and you'll get pages and pages of images of Ben Franklin, even at different ages.

IMO, this is the best way to determine what method you will use, whether morphs or some fancy external modelling solution or displacement or whatever. Focus on the ultimate goal first in terms of the look you want, and the tools later.

First take a look at the fotos, and start noticing the characteristics of his face. Even get a ruler out, or bring the image into Photoshop and use the ruler tool. Start noticing relative dimensions, like size of forehead relative to the length of his face. Does his forehead seem to be fairly large? Is his face rather square, or more rounded? What about his chin, is it pointed or more rounded? And his eyes? Are they kind of large and droopy? And is his nose fairly large? And what about the wrinkles on his face? Do you want to model those?

Take measurements to use as a reference for when you model his face in CG. The human eye is extremely proficient at noticing minute details and relative dimensions in faces, and even tiny differences are subconsciously important.

Then start thinking about whether you'll be using closeups of his face in your renders. The more closeups, the more detail you'll need in modelling. Maybe you'll need to model individual wrinkles using displacement or morphs, or maybe you can get away with texture maps if the camera will be further away.

Once you have all of that information, only then can you start to think about what tools and methods you'll use. Maybe with his facial characteristics and the fact you'll not be doing closeups, you can get away with just stock morphs and some texture maps. Or, maybe to get those facial characteristics a stock morph won't work, and you'll need to use something fancy to make very detailed morphs of wrinkles and other characteristics.

It's a bit like saying, "I want to build a wooden chair, what tools should I use?". Well it depends on what you want your chair to look like... :)

JoeMamma2000

By the way, I did a quick search and found some fotos of a bust (sculpture) of Ben Franklin done by Jean Antoine Houdon, on the Metropolitan Museum of Art website. It's just what you need, because it gives a semi-orthographic front AND a side view of the bust !! Excellent. That way you can model in two dimensions, which is often the critical requirement to get the shadows and lighting.

Keep in mind that often the way the shadows fall on the face is part of the way we determine details and facial features. You can model a face perfectly based solely upon a straight-on, front view image of the face, but it still might not look right. And the reason is because you haven't modelled the depth correctly. Yeah, the nose is narrow, but unless you see a side view you don't realize it's also very long, with a big bump on top.

Personally, if it was me, I'd use those fotos of the bust as a starting point for deciding how to model the face.

Here's the link:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/72.6

Diomede

RE: reference material and modeling

The vertex modeling room allows you to load reference pics in the orthogonal cameras. (left/right, front/back, top/bottom). To see the references against the working box, make sure that you have one of the directional cameras active in the modeling room.

PhilW

Of course Joe is right about using photo references, and having front and side views is particularly useful. If you want, you can load these as reference images in the vertex modeller (if that is what you are using). My advice would be to focus at first on getting the overall face shape right and the features placed in the right places and with the right proportions, once that is done you can concentrate on each of the features and details, but get the overall form right first and you will find it easier. (Edit - I see that Diomede64 just beat me to it regarding using references!)

JoeMamma2000

The reason I didn't recommend using reference fotos in the background in your modelling app right away is for three reasons:

1. If you don't have really good, front facing images it can actually make it more difficult. Often it's easier to just take relative measurements, which aren't really affected by a skewed perspective in the image.

2. I find it much better if you can visualize what you want to do, and first get very familiar with the face by observation. KNOW what the face looks like before you go in to modelling.

3. If you're using stock morphs, often they are designed in terms of relative facial dimensions, such as "square face" and "wide nose bridge". If you already know that, based on your initial measurements and knowledge of the face, the forehead is large, it's easier to match to the appropriate morph.

Of course, there is a time when reference fotos in the background are a good idea, but I just caution folks to not immediately jump to that. Understand what you want your face to look like first... :)

starboard

JoeMamm2000,
Thanks for the all the info on using images for getting a likeness. Actually I have done my due diligence in this area and have a number of images to use as reference. I have been in art for years so I am familiar with comparative techniques. What you suggested is really very good and the way its done. What I did not know about is the bust you found at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. I have a side of a bust very similar - but not the frontal. What is special about the bust you found, as you know, is that they are a matched pair. Your right this will help a lot. The problem is going to be getting results from an unfamiliar interface....but thats what life is about...problems. Bring them on.

Thanks JoeMamm2000 you did well.

Stsrboardtack

starboard

Sorry I am little embarrassed.

I did not see half the posts that were sent...When my e-mail said I had an answer to my question it went to the one post. Let me get back after I have given them their full consideration.. Thanks everybody for helping me
Starboardtack

starboard

Diomede64, Phill, and JoeMamma2000,

You have all given me essential information. I have a strategy now and I am not just stumbling around trying to re-invent the wheel. I am really glad that I brought this question up on the forum. Lets hope others can get some benefit from these posts..The information is too good not to be used by just me.

I have been busy already with the morphs of M4 - its slider heaven over there- and I can get an approximation of what I am looking for. Now with the two images that JoeMamma has supplied it allows a whole new level of precision. I plan on putting the profile and frontal views of the bust in the Vertex Modeling Room reference backgrounds as Phill and Dioimede64 suggests. Just as soon as I tweak them in Photoshop.

I think you have all resolved my problems of "what" to do and "how". Now I have to complete the "when". Thanks again for being generous with you time and advice..

I think it is time I got to work and turn out some product.

Starboardtack

Dartanbeck

Sorry... I don't have any time after typing this reply in my thread, which may have some information that can help you do what you want to do, but not in the method that your original post suggests.
Here's my suggestion, but feel free to tell me to fly a kite if I'm way off base!

Try doing the edits in Carrara!
When doing so, keep this in mind - Genesis by default renders at SubD Smoothing level of 2, but you see it in the working view without any smoothing. If you turn the model level smoothing up to 2 while you model your custom shape, you'll see the actual SubD changes that your edits make, and with Genesis (or Genesis 2) at smoothing level 2, you've got a LOT of virtual polygons to play with!

Give it a shot. You may surprise yourself with what can be done in Carrara - especially if you also try playing with the displacement brushes on the modeling level, which I believe can actually be applied to the mesh, instead of exporting as a displacement map. But I like just using the regular modeling tools. I just mentioned the displacement brushes because it feels a lot like using sculptris.

starboard

Dartanbeck,
Again, you come up with some clever suggestions. Let me see if I understand what your saying. At present I make corrections using a morph slider. But to see it as it actually is I have to use the render tool - which is what I am doing at present. Are you saying that if I move the sub D sliders to 2 I will see how the morphs look - well almost as good as using the Render Tool ?

Using the displacement brushes sounds intriguing also. How do you go about that ? There maybe something on it in Phill's lessons.. My problem is retaining half of what I learn. I am constantly going back and replaying them as it seems to be a two steps forward one step back application method. ( occasionally its two steps back).

Starboardtack