Future of Carrara - mundane - (outside orbit of big animation studios)
Diomede
Posts: 15,165
There are some mundane topics of interest to a portion of the forum users that I think might get lost in the other thread, which seems to be targeted at people who want to work for, or compete against, major animation studios. So if you do stills, or if you are a hobbyist, or you are a small entrepreneur in a niche that doesn't compete against Disney, etc., then this thread might be a place to talk about related trends, issues, and topics (and of course gripe, speculate without foundation about Daz's intentions, and complain about Daz time).
Mundane topics (1) and (2) - how about we start with the familiar topics of the manual and the resource pack.
Check out this excerpt from a review of Carrara 3. I bet those were the days. :coolsmile:
"There is much going for the latest version, and not just in terms of new features. Praise must go to the huge, detailed manual that ships with the application, plus bonus content CD that is stuffed to the gills with high-res textures – including some valuable planetary skins – and High Dynamic Range Images (HDRI). For pure value, Carrara is hard to beat."
http://www.digitalartsonline.co.uk/reviews/creative-software/carrara-studio-3/
Will the Daz information pages for Carrara that we've seen started eventually fill the role of the manual?
Will the content that ships with Carrara be revised, or will there be a continued emphasis on including content desgned for Studio?
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Comments
Yes - that is the future of Carrara in a nutshell :)
Yeah, pretty much....
You just have to look at their website to see what DAZ's new direction is for the future.
Flashy. Bold. Awesome. Cool. Eye candy.
They are attracting customers based on "oooo, shiny !!", and instant gratification. And personally, I think that's the way our culture is heading. Everything now is instant gratification. You don't like something or someone, you instantly un-friend them or ignore them. You like them? You give them likes or whatever. You want to play? You instantly download and play a free game. You want to watch a movie? You instantly watch whatever you want on Youtube or whatever. People are less and less inclined to do things for the long term.
So, will DAZ put in a lot of effort to make new features that are only appreciated by people who have put in a lot of effort to understand the intricacies and depth of 3D and visual FX? Probably not, IMO. Even manuals. People don't read manuals anymore. They *might* watch a video, or ask someone online, but manuals are difficult and boring. People learn by playing around with the software, maybe asking some questions online, but when they get bored they move on to something else.
And people now expect free software. Anything else is a waste. Especially when they can get D|S free, and they expect free software, why would they pay unless it's really really super cool and awesome. Then it might be worth $50. Maybe. But paying big bucks for software is only for a small percentage of users, those who want to get involved in more depth. But that's not who DAZ is selling to.
And especially since Carrara is SO far behind the times, it would take so much to make Carrara something they can advertise in big bold splashy letters and images on their front page. No cool features that everyone can say "WOW !!! " at. No "oooo, shiny!!!"
That's why Carrara and Hex don't appear on the website unless you search real hard. It doesn't fit what DAZ is selling.
Maybe this thing with iClone will produce some better software. That seems to me to be the most likely future. But I really doubt that Carrara is part of that.
My suggestion would be for Daz to divorce Carrara from its stable of products .That is,from a marketing point of view.
It is lost under the current representation and if any newcomer stumbles upon it what they are likely to find is a product not well supported and a community exasperated by the lack of interest shown by Daz. Would YOU then be willing to invest your time and money given the doubtful future of Carrara ? I think many people didn't even upgrade to 8.5 for this reason.
If Daz were to give Carrara its own website ,forum and some better involvement with the community it might then be seen as a worthy product in its own right ( which we users of course already know ). Then I think they have a better chance of selling the product. and therefore more resources to develop it.
Try content getting it into any other software - Iclone, Lightwave,Maya etc and there are problems so one of Carrara's advantages is that Daz content can easily be used yet it has so many other features found in the major brands albeit the implementation may need upgrading.
Joe has already said that Carrara is so far behind and it is sad to see it happening but with some REAL promotion and development why couldn't it be up there with at least "Lightwave" ? How would that harm Daz Studio or Daz's ability to sell content ?
cheers
Oh ! - Did any one note Carrara never gets a mention in the content description's "software compatible" list ? Do the folks at Daz just assume everyone knows that if its ok for Poser it is ok for Carrara.
Regards the Manual - I'm one of those who like to print it and read in bed - The PDF Carrara Manual is excellent and whilst youtube videos are great for seeing things in action the manual is great for understanding how things work - The online version currently being created is not for me - maybe that's because its not complete as often I reach a dead link. Sure I can print pages ( and do) but the whole thing isn't in logical order and makes it hard to get a print of the complete thing - maybe you can , I haven't spent that much time on it. Just give me an updated pdf manual please !
Honestly, I don't know if there is much of a horse yet to beat- Unless everybody is afraid the old, dead mare will raise up and try to eat them. But seriously, I haven't seen zombie horses on The Walking Dead yet.
:-P
Well, now that I've taken the bait, yet another thread to un-subscribe from.
I'm guessing that Evil really, really, REALLY doesn't like any negative comments about Carrara... :)
But we all like and use it...not our fault it has such a dim future. :)
Then they are being farsighted.
Then they are being farsighted.
Absolutely.
Personally, and unfortunately, I think they are probably on the right track. I think DAZ really does recognize how the market is heading and they are catering to that. So really I can't fault them. They are a business, and probably doing what's best for their business.
It's just unfortunate for the few percent of the market who are interested in other things...
quote Joe
"Maybe this thing with iClone will produce some better software"
What new thing is that Joe ?
I looked at the much trumpeted new realistic rendering in Iclone because I thought - hey, maybe its gonnna be worth all that hassle with 3dexchange but after looking at the confusingly complicated rendering process - i realised ( once again) how good Carrara is.
I noticed that the iClone folks are in a partnership with DAZ, and Reallusion (iclone) is selling DAZ products directly on their website. That is a huge and very close partnership. iClone needs content for their software to do stuff with, and DAZ needs more software out there that can directly use DAZ content.
So I'm just guessing that the partnership might turn into something larger. Just a wild guess though.
I'm guessing that Evil really, really, REALLY doesn't like any negative comments about Carrara... :)
But we all like and use it...not our fault it has such a dim future. :)
I do like Carrara, and I have said negative things about it, and I don't mind negative things being said, within reason. Until the Carrara 9 thread dropped off the front page, the Future of Carrara thread and the Carrara 9 thread had their fare share of negative comments. Now we have yet another bitch-thread. How many do we need at any one time?
No offense intended to diomede, and I'm sure you mean it to be a thread with constructive discussion, but if you think this thread will be anything but a doom-and-gloom-beat-the-dead-Carrara-horse thread, you are mistaken. Whatever constructive discussion there is, will be over-shadowed by egos with a vested interest in being right (and I'm not just referring to Joe- everybody, including me, has an ego to bruise).
Couple all that with an up-tick in interest by new and potential new users, and un-informed, blanket statements that Carrara is dead, can and will scare some of them away, thus diminishing any increase in the user base and virtually guaranteeing that Carrara gets little interest or development from DAZ.
If I don't think something can be done in Carrara, I will be honest and say it. If I think it can be done I will also say it. If I don't know either way, I will say so, won't respond, or point them to someone I think can help. If there are other titles that people think will do the job, I don't have a problem with it, but since this is the Carrara Discussion forum, I assume Carrara is the first choice for a solution.
I think the feature request threads are more helpful than these threads, but they also tend to run to the negative, and many times, Carrara actually has the feature that somebody wishes it has. Even us old dogs can learn something new. For me it was how to turn on the camera manipulators in the Assembly room.
Even Joe recently learned that a feature on his wish-list had been in Carrara since at least since version 7, and probably before.
http://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/51389/#748190
Exactly right.
:) :) :)
I guess it's just assumed that my comments are nothing more than vested interest and ego?
Well, I suppose everyone is free to assign motives to whatever they read, but a healthier participation might be to evaluate the CONtent, not the INtent, and whether it has merit or not.
In spite of the fact that I enjoy Carrara and other software, I'm not offended by negative comments, even to the extent of dead horse beating, if they are rational and have some merit. It's just software. Not your child, not your best friend. It's code.
And if new users are filled with glowing, yet inaccurate platitudes about their new software, which they later find out are incorrect, it might do far more harm than good.
I just noticed that DAZ is actually advertising the cloth and collision detection features of C8.5 Pro on their website, even though it is barely functional. To me, that is unfortunate, and could leave new users with a bad taste. I think it's better to be honest about the features and the future.
But I know others disagree. That's what makes (dead) horse races... :)
I honestly can't imagine why anyone would buy Carrara. I didn't always feel that way.
When I purchased years ago, it had a great article in 3D world magazine as Eovia was prepping to sell to Daz Studio. At that time, it was exactly what I was looking for. I jumped in. I remember easily finding a couple of books - one was titled "Carrara 5 Pro Handbook" by Mike de la Flor. A great resource. And there was great interaction between the Daz team and the Carrara customers. Wow - I can even remember When a big release was coming out - they did a systematic reveal of the new features before the release. Really good stuff!
That was then - this is now.
It is abominable and a slap in the face to the Carrara community that the software is not even mentioned on the freakin' website.
No word from the developers in the forum. Nothing. NOTHING. WHY WOULD ANYONE buy software that is so valued by the developer that it does not even get mentioned on the site? Oh but wait - you can find it if you search! Search, really?!!?.
I'm past being frustrated - either engage or sell it!!!!!
seriously - if you can't see the potential in Carrara and have no real vision for it's future - do us all a favor and sell it.
Anything neglected eventually dies.
Uh oh...I'm gettin' outta here....
Sounds like there might be an Evil vs. Realtime grudge match... :) :) :)
Yes, I agree. But I hope you are not expecting much of a response from DAZ ...
I do have to say that my copy of Carrara ain't broke, and I still happily use it on a daily basis. It's pretty much second nature, I'm not often thinking about what buttons are where. Although I'm still occasionally investigating features I haven't used much. So I don't plan on switching, even in light of the near "abandonware" status. Even if Windows progresses to the point that Carrara won't install, I'll keep a machine running a version of Windows that is compatible. I'm already doing that with another big league program.
I use Carrara 7.2. I don't usually find myself needing anything more than what it's capable of doing. If I wanted to do something more than what Carrara can currently do, I'd go use Blender or C4D or Maya. I can't think of anything I wish Carrara could do that it doesn't currently do. Unless there's a "Make Animation For Me" button they can install. :D
You have to buy that as a plugin.....
yes, I agree, sadly!... I ve used carrara since the version 3, professionnally, as Illustrator, and really sale hundreds of pictures and animations rendered in carrara... Right now, I'm going to cine4d, but I also keep, in the future, a version of carrara on a pc, just in case, as it is like "the end of my fingers", if it means something in English...it's a pity Eovia sale carrara and hex...
I think that daz has a goal drastically opposed to the purpose of carrara.. I mean, and don't misunderstand me, I don't want to offense anybody, I mean that you never sale, in pro jobs, presets... never... you can use them, of course, for example I use often them as primitives for zbrush, exporting , say, Michael 3 in a pose, then sculpt on it the character I want... But I never sale the directly rendered michael or V4, or V5, or so on... same with animals... well, sometimes for tiny silhouettes in architecture renders... So, working for content is more or less working for hobbyists... once again, no offense at all... Just my experience of working since 12 years in 3d illustrations...
for daz, I suppose that making a big effort on carrara, is like working in another business, another job...
maybe I'm wrong, and daz is going to surprise all of us, with a carrara 9 really build out of that "content management"... well , I hope so, but don't believe at all...
No offense taken. I think almost any software used in any professional capacity isn't delivering content to the viewer straight out of the box using a single software (unless it's some kind of experimental thing like those movies that are made entirely in Blender).
Most images or motion pictures are created using a variety of softwares to put out the best possible end product. If I had to composite in Carrara...like, I could do it...but I would feel like I have so much less control and it would be so much more difficult. I mean, even something as simple as a "shaky cam" affect in an animation. In AE I just drop the null object in, parent the video, and voila -- done. In Carrara, I can't even imagine how much time it would take to insert a truly organic shaky cam.
I think it's great that you use various softwares to create a desired effect. :)