3D Printing -How does it effect Carrara
starboard
Posts: 452
I just got an e-mail from DAZ announcing a new service that will allow the printing of DAZ figures on 3D Printers. I suspect that others on the forum can be more knowledgable than I on how this may effect Carrara. However, on the surface it may indicate where the energies of DAZ has been invested these many months -E Doll Printing. From a business standpoint it may be a smart move. Just thought I would bring this up for comment.
Starboardtack
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well you always could print or redistribute for that matter something you modeled from scratch in Carrara so do not see any real issue
Interesting....I didn't see that coming... :)
Seems like whenever you pass by one of those comic book shops there's a small section of plastic figures of comic book heroes. Some are pretty cool, even 10-12 inches tall. I suppose that's a popular thing for comic book lovers. Though I'm not sure how big a market it is. Maybe DAZ is hoping to make a new market that doesn't already exist.
Of course, anyone can make replica figures from digital files right now. That has been available forever, where you send an electronic file describing a gizmo or doodad and it will get machined or 3D printed. But I suppose this falls in line with their "Oooo, shiny!!" strategy, hoping to generate interest in a cool new thing.
I wish them luck. But, of course, I don't think that is a good omen for Carrara unfortunately.
Absolutely right. But if I understand some of the conditions, they are saying that you cannot sell the figures that you make from the Genesis models for money. It appears the Genesis figures will be under a license. This was not mentioned for M/V 4 figures so they may be in the public domain. They will also be offering a service, so apparently you will be able to send the file to DAZ and they will print the figure for you.
I made this post as I thought it might answer some of the questions as to why DAZ was keeping a low profile with respect to Carrara. It might be that they were fully occupied in trying to bring this concept to market. It will be interesting to see how it will work out for them. A minor revenue producer, or a major part of their business.
Starboardtack
Also interesting...
I wonder if they invested in a bunch of in-house 3D printers, or if they are just turning around and handing it to an existing service to do the printing, and DAZ acts as the middleman, making sure the files are in good shape, etc., for the printing service.
A while back I posted some links to existing online services who do this for industrial parts, but I'm sure there are plastics 3D printing services sprouting up all over now that 3D printing is a big buzzword.
We'll see. I hope it does better than their Gizmoz venture. :)
What is also interesting, is that Genesis is protect and the 4's apparently not.. I really have no feel about how wise a business venture this is. It is not something I would be interested in..but there may be many who will use their service. The prices I saw seemed to be around $30 for a 3" item...I initially thought this was high - but 3D printing last time I checked is not a very fast procedure. It may be a fair price.. I just don't know.
Starboardtack
I just did a very quick search for "3D printing service" and found a name that sounded familiar. They offer miniatures for sale and I think they have a printing service.
If anyone wants to investigate further this might have some good info:
http://www.shapeways.com/miniatures?li=home-miniatures
EDIT: And here's info on their online printing service, including steps to upload your digital file for printing
http://www.shapeways.com/create?li=nav
I wonder what the cost might be for a V/M 4 type character
I think all figures by DAZ have same agreement
I meant you always could and still can print stuff you model yourself as some carrara users do no restrictions
Getting back to Carrara, it also just might be that now that this business venture is launched, that Carrara may be next to be attended to. It is still their flagship 3D modeling program. The only one that makes money. It does not make sense to neglect it too long. In the meantime..time to get modeling.
Starboardtack
I think the reason you don't see anything prior to Genesis 2 specifically mentioned can be inferred from this statement on the 3D printing page (the screen grab in your first post): "all Genesis 2 characters are 3D print- ready". This means that DAZ 3D has done the work for the end user with Genesis 2 to create a closed volume, suitable for 3D printing. Closed volumes are a requirement for 3d printing. The problem with DAZ figures is that they are not a closed volume, they have breaks in the mesh at the eyes and mouth. I'm guessing there will either be a new version of DS, or a plugin to facilitate the generation of a closed volume mesh from Genesis 2 (with the clothing), and export it to STL (the standard format used by most 3D printers) to enable the "coming soon" custom print service, and printing on your own 3D printer.
With V4/M4 or Genesis (1) it appears that you would need to create a closed volume (i.e. with a modeling application), which can be a bit of a royal pain in the rear (especially with V4/M4).
Interesting...I didn't realize that was an issue...
What I'm curious about is that, while you can import an .obj of your V4 in multiple pieces (ie, hip, chest, abdomen, etc.), like we are doing with the cloth workaround in the other thread (making under armor), you can also do a simple .obj export in Carrara, then re-import it, and it comes in as a single object, not pieces. Is that not suitable for the closed volume necessary?
Daz had a deal with shapeways in the past , it was a big bomb !
Interesting developments...
Over the festive season there was a stand at our local mall where the operators hand-scanned customers and produced 3D models of them on the spot. Pretty good they were - not plastic. Looked like epoxy. Pretty expensive - you need to be pretty narcissistic to payUS $250 for 12-inch statuette of yourself!
Not all that long ago on the Hexagon forum a guy came in and showed how he made articulated 3D models. The program he used automatically created the pins and pinholes to attach limbs to the body.
Oh really? Maybe that's why the name sounds familiar...but I dont recall the deal. Just the Gizmoz :) :)
Interesting...I didn't realize that was an issue...
What I'm curious about is that, while you can import an .obj of your V4 in multiple pieces (ie, hip, chest, abdomen, etc.), like we are doing with the cloth workaround in the other thread (making under armor), you can also do a simple .obj export in Carrara, then re-import it, and it comes in as a single object, not pieces. Is that not suitable for the closed volume necessary?
With V4/M4 you would need to weld the "identical" vertices of the different parts, and fix the eyes and the mouth. Keep in mind too that even though the mouth is closed and the eyes completely fill the eye sockets, this doesn't create a solid volume. Think of it as the object you want to print needs to be a solid mesh that is water/air tight as a single solid volume/mesh.
Some of the software for the 3D printers will do a lot of the work for you, but multi-part complex figures like V4 typically will still need a fair amount of user intervention to get it "right". Which also means if you are getting a color print, things get even more complex because altering the mesh can also alter the UV's.
Ahhh...okay. I think the weld identical is pretty quick and easy, but the isolated parts like eyes are a problem.
So I wonder, when they were developing Genesis long ago, they must have considered 3D printing in the design...interesting
Very possible, but before the big changes in leadership at DAZ (new CEO, etc.) it looked as if one of the ideas behind Genesis was to expand the market to other software. The multiple mesh design of V4/M4 in conjunction with the heavy poly count was a huge deterrent to using them in other software. When Genesis first came out, some of the marketing showed it being used in Maya. DAZ also contacted the maker of Interposer Pro (plugin to use Poser content naitively in Cinema 4D) to make a similar plugin for Genesis and C4D (they even posted information about this in the forums) . Then the leadership at DAZ 3D changed a short time after the introduction of Genesis (less than a year?), and all the "chatter" about the use of Genesis in other software completely went away.
However, as I recall, the new CEO came from a hobby store chain (or similar). The 3D printing of your creations certainly fits as a hobby store type of thing, so maybe they were thinking of both? It could also be the new generation of lower cost 3D printers has a lot to do with it. You can get a good quality, pre-assembled small home 3D printer for under $500 now.
But of course, this is all just pure speculation. Maybe we will be able to also send our Carrara models to the DAZ 3D print service. The prices on their current offerings aren't bad at all. I was expecting to see them closer to the $75-$100 range.
Ahaa !!!! That's true. I had forgotten that Jim Thornton was an arts and crafts industry guy most of his career. And I recall a news article saying in 2013 he became Chairman of a crafts company called Craftwell, while also being CEO of DAZ. Which seemed kinda strange..
I found the article...it says "Both Tse and Thornton expect that there will be great synergies between Craftwell and DAZ3D moving forward...."
So you may have something there...good insight.
But I *thought* Thornton was replaced more recently by Phil Reed, who was the head of one of the venture capital firms that invested in DAZ. I saw something about Phil Reed a while back...he posted a blog explaining the Gizmoz merger. But maybe one was Chairman, and one CEO. Though usually it's the same person. Who knows.
And then there's the merger with Gizmoz...I'm sure some of those guys became part of upper management in DAZ.
Again, who knows? All has been very quiet on the DAZ front lately.
One other thought...
I checked out this Craftwell USA company, and it seems like it is geared more towards the arts and crafts folks...y'know, like sewing and making stuff like craft stuff like...well...I dunno, I'm the last guy to know about arts and crafts. But it seems more geared towards stuff that women get involved in, as opposed to the 3D and hobbies guys who do comics and 3D art and stuff, which I think is generally (though obviously not always) geared to males.
Although that company does have a line of embossing machines, which are used to emboss artsy stuff on your handbag or your birthday card or whatever...I'm clueless on that stuff.
Interesting how the two companies might have common long term interests....kind of a head scratcher, IMO.
I don't know what it says about my (lack of) morality, but my mind went right into the gutter about the possible applications of 3d printing of the daz dolls :)
I'm not into figurines myself, even though I came from a D&D background when younger, but I can completely see how the various players at an RPG table would want to have their custom kitted characters printed out and sitting right there on the table, to add to the 'coolness' factor.
On the other hand, I'm sure there are people who wouldn't mind taking Naked Vicky in a Temple and changing that to Naked Vicky on my actual desk 3 inches away from my mouse (for example). Not really my thing, but I have no doubt it will occur.
So , we have a company, DAZ, whose leadership has been replaced by people with backgrounds in Arts and Crafts, some time later DAZ brings out a product that bridges the gap between digital model figures and a physical model figures. No surprise there. I can understand the enthusiasm with which this idea must have been approached. DAZ already has an extensive library of 3D figures it would make sense to give them a secondary use and the company a secondary income stream. Apparently much resources have been committed to bring this about.
As I said in an earlier post - I have no feel for this area of the market. However, out of my ignorance, comes a few thoughts. First how deep is this market for 3D figures. Is it a novelty, an item you might try once or a service you will come back to again and again. What do you do with these statuettes. Place them next to your keyboards, next to your coffee mugs, presents for Christmas ? Children play with action figures "statuettes"..maybe a T-Rex in one hand a B-Saurus in the other - surely these are too expensive for that kind of application.-Especially since far cheaper injection molding is used instead of 3D printing. If this is a major shift in the companies direction- I don't understand it. If it is a fringe market service - well ok that might work - but what is it ?
I was also wondering about how best a 3D program such as Carrara survives in its market. It seems that the companies that owned Carrara in the past all believed that the best business model was to have numerous digital arts programs under the one roof. Meta-Creations had Infini D/Ray Dream/ then Carrara/and I believe Painter.. Then if I recall right, Coral bought up these assets, and again numerous programs demanding attention. Eovia, did the same , with Carrara, Amapi, and others.. And now DAZ, multiple programs and even duplication.. Is there something wrong with this business model ? Does Lightwave, Maya etc. operate the same way or do they have their energies dedicated to one 3D asset. Wondering.
Just some thoughts.
Starboardtack
Reminds me a bit of one of my favorite movies... "40 Year Old Virgin" :) :)
Andy, the main character, and, well, a 40 year old virgin, is a comic book fan, and has shelves full of statuettes of his favorite comic heroes. Including one of Steve Austin, the "Six Million Dollar Man", and his boss, Oscar Goldman (?)...
And of course he kept them in their original boxes...and he freaked whenever anyone touched them... :) :) :)
I dunno...I'm not sure of the market for this. Can't say I've ever met anyone who has a collection of statuettes like this. It seems kind of expensive too...hundreds of $$ for a statuette...not many kids can afford that I assume.
Hmmmm....maybe that's the market...40 year old virgins... :) :) :)
I guess I'm not sure how this would have an impact on Carrara in either a positive or a negative way....
I know I've seen at least one example where someone made an object in Carrara and sent it to a company in Europe (I think) that 3D printed custom objects for people. I personally have no desire to have a real life DAZ dolly. I suppose there could be a market out there for D&D players, but I would think that it would go more towards fantasy creatures or something. Maybe some would like a model of their favorite character, but man, I think it's a niche market.
I can't imagine using such a service if it's restricted to 3DPrint shops in the US - I'd need somewhere much closer to home for it to be economically viable. For me the benefit would be in printing buildings, props, sets etc - these would most likely be things Ive created myself in Carrara, & I'd use them for blocking and inspiration in my writing.
I doubt I'd bother getting prints of Daz dollies (at $35 for a prerendered 3" character, + probably double that for shipping) - for my purposes, the cheapest action or scale figure from a toy/hobby store would be more than enough!
I guess I haven't really checked prices for 3d printers. I've seen youtube vids where people were 3d printing guns, for example, which I thought was very cool, and other items, made me think maybe the prices on this stuff was naturally coming down and would eventually become more and more of a household item. I don't think it would ever make much sense to send off to some exotic an pricey company to print up your naked Vicky, but if you had a 3d printer just over on the shelf next to your regular printer/fax machine, then I don't figure it would cost much to print up whatever little daz dolly you wanted.
I don't think there's a huge niche for this either, but I guess you never know, maybe it's a bigger market than I'm thinking?
A quick look on Amazon, and they're going for between £500 and a grand (so, what, $700-$1500 US at a guess). These are the kind that print ABS or PLA from a filament reel. (1kg reels are £20-£25 in assorted colours). These only print "small" size objects. "Large" size printers are around £1800
The big industrial printers... who knows. Reportedly the printer that made the gun cost half a mil!
This is what they say about them:
So I guess most of the work is to modify the models so they can be printed, there are always things that cannot be printed, there are lots of cheap printers out there but most of it is crap, you still need spend some money to get any kind of useful printer.
Is this from DAZ?: " Even so, they can still be quite delicate and can easily break. We have made every effort to ensure that your 3D print arrives to you intact, however if for some reason your figure breaks, we recommend using liquid super glue for repairs as it dries quickly and leaves fewer noticeable seams than gel-based glues. "
If it is, they can't be serious. If you receive your brand new 3D print that you just paid almost $40 for, plus shipping, and it's broken, just fix it yourself with super glue????
I must be misunderstanding something. Sorry if I'm off base.
I have not paid anything for mine ;o) and I have not received it yet ;o)
They printed 1000 of them and sent out to some DAZ customers, so I guess they think if it's free it's no big deal if it's broken ;o) but yes, it does sound a little silly,
I you buy one and it's broken I would think you get a new one.
Oh really? So it's a giveaway to stir up interest. Good idea.
But seriously, if the materials they are using for the production version are so delicate, like they say, and the paying customers have a decent likelihood of getting a damaged miniature, then IMO something is very wrong with their plan. That won't go over too well, even if they do get a replacement, and have to call or file a claim with UPS or whoever and wait for a new one.
Like I mentioned about the "40 Year Old Virgin"....I think a lot of fans like that take this stuff real seriously, and might freak if their awesome miniature of their favorite action figure they designed and printed is a crumbled mess when they receive it.
Hopefully I'm wrong on this and overreacting. Just seems strange for them to mention something like this.
Just about all of the less expensive 3-D printers out there ($500 to $5000 range) print using only one or two colors of filament at a time(single v dual extruder). Most use PLA which is a plant based plastic (that will warp if you leave it in the car in the summer or ABS which is oil based plastic (Legos are made from ABS). Some will print with flexible filaments. There are filaments that look like wood or stone, There are a couple that will use carbon fiber or Kevlar. These are great for making parts, but the resolution is probably too low for fine detail work (resolution gets better at the upper end).
The more expensive machines can produce extremely fine detail, and a few can mix colors, but these are not cheap. So don't think you can go buy a $1000 machine and get fully textured, high resolution figurines out of the deal. (at least this year)
Research before you buy.
ncamp