Weightmapping V4 in Carrara

Jonstark

So this is a thing I'm thinking of doing as a future project, which is to weightmap a V4 and a M4 in Carrara.

However I want to make sure I really understand what weightmapping is. I know that it controls the amount of influence over vertexes that any particular bone movement has. Originally I thought that with the correct weightmapping it could be used to control the way the mesh falls at any particular movement, to correct some of the strange bends that V4 sometimes gets in certain movements. Perhaps the most infamous example is the problem with V4's shoulders and the way they 'crease' when the shoulders are moved down by the side, just as an example, and there have been numerous vendors who have made and sold 'fix' morphs for this problem, like Corvus or Xameva and Meipe over at rendo, for example.

But while weight mapping correctly might help alleviate this problem slightly, I'm thinking that it would take more than just weight-mapping to create a Carrara-specific V4 that has perfect bends. I'm guessing for that I would also need to use Fenric's ERC and add specific movement morphs for each degree of movement of the relevant bones.

But maybe I've got it wrong, and simply properly weightmapping V4/M4 will make them more friendly in Carrara and bend more naturally and correctly. Can anyone more knowledgeable on the subject (which is likely to be everyone :) ) comment so I can be sure I understand?

Also while Genesis and Genesis2 are touted by Daz as having much more natural bends at the joints, it still isn't perfect (as evidenced by the many Daz vendors selling joint fixes), I'm wondering if we can also weightmap and correct triax figures too in Carrara.

In short, any advice is appreciated, since I know little to nothing about the subject :)

3drendero

Here is a weight mapped V4 for free:
http://www.runtimedna.com/WMV4.html

And here is a plugin to import Poser weight mapped figures into Carrara properly:
http://fenric.com/wordpress/downloads/
Poser Weightmap Injector (free!)
Though it may require Poser Pro 2012 to first prepare the model.

Let the learning begin, unless it already has been done by someone else...

EDIT: More info here:
http://carraracafe.com/news/fenrics-poser-weight-map-injector-plugin/

Mistara

really? i've been wanting to bring Mikki 3 into ca.

ooo wm Aiko3!!!! would be so kewl.

Jonstark

I completely forgot about Fenric's plugin, but I remember reading about it at the time and seeing it on his site. I'm not sure how good the V4 weightmapped for Poser is, although I'm sure it bends better than the original. I'll have to try Fenric's plugin to bring it into weightmapping for Carrara, and from there maybe I can fine tune it even further, or explore adding some ERC controllers to really make it look good/natural on the bends. Thanks!

Fenric

Weightmapped V4 works reasonably well. Just don't forget to use "Zero Figure" between each and every step or it won't work.

Miki 3 has the same problem as all new Smith Micro figures: you need to reparent the feet to the shins before using the Prep Poser File utility - they are direct children of the hips for some reason.

The reason that I suggest a pass through PoserPro 2012 (or 2014) is so that you can do "merge all zones to weightmaps" because not everything is weight-mapped, and so the weight-map importer won't get everything :). Anything that has proper sphere zones should be OK, but things that use the Poser 8/Pro 2010 "capsule" maps won't work at all.

Wight-mapping in Carrara is difficult because there is no smooth brush, only add and subtract

Jonstark

Fenric said:

Wight-mapping in Carrara is difficult because there is no smooth brush, only add and subtract

Hmmm, so maybe the better strategy is to do any weightmapping in Poser instead (assuming I can figure out how to do it) then use your plugin to bring the weightmapped figure into carrara and convert it to Carrara weightmaps?

Fenric

The downside of starting in Poser is that you have to make a valid "traditional" rig first, or Carrara won't import the figure at all.

It doesn't have to be a particularly good rig, it just has to exist and be proper.

That said, it does make the mapping easier, because you get a place to start. After that, Poser's weightmapping tools are a lot more sophisticated than Carrara's, mostly because Carrara's haven't been updated in forever.

Diomede

I think if people come across this thread later, it might be good to clarify a couple of concepts that are ambiguous in the context of the topic of weightmapping. Happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

Consider 4 different rigging systems (of many more that exist), each of which actually does have some sort of weightmapping when used in Carrara (or at least can be edited with Carrara's weight painting tools), but the system itself might not be referred to as "weightmapped" in general discussions.

1) legacy "Poser-style" rigging for the Poser figures for versions 1-7, and also for early Daz figures such as Vicky 1-4, Michael 1-4, etc. - not generally referred to as weightmapped
2) more recent "Poser style" weightmapped rigging for Poser figures versions 8+, Tyler, Dawn, etc. - yes generally referred to as weightmapped
3) more recent Daz Studio triax rigging for Genesis, Genesis 2, Dragon 3, etc. - not generally referred to as weightmapped
4) native Carrara bone skeleton and attached model - not generally referred to as weightmapped.

So, a couple of related questions

a) Could the legacy V4 mesh (1 above) be weightmapped in the more recent "Poser style" (2 above) like Dawn and Tyler?
Yes - and you will find the links in the posts above. That is what the Fenric utility helps with. (Thanks, Fenric!)

b) Could the legacy V4 mesh (1 above) have its joints, etc. improved for use in Carrara with additional joint control morphs?
Yes - and there are a number of products for sale that have improved morphs for V4, without changing its basic rigging system. (Keep it in 1 above, but make morphs that would work in several programs).

c) For use within Carrara, could someone use Carrara's weightpainting brush and similar tools to improve the functionality of the joints, etc. specifically for use within Carrara, without changing the basic rigging system (keep it in 1 above but make Carrara-specific changes)?
Yes - but I don't think there are any products, and someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it would be difficult to share or distribute such a product because you'd have to share the base mesh along with the skeleton/attach with the weightmapping. Not sure about that, though.

d) For use within Carrara, could someone detach the V4 mesh from the existing bone structure (1 above), delete that bone structure, then create a new native Carrara rigging, along with custom weightmaps (4 above)?
Yes - but again the ability to share or distribute might be limited because of the mesh. In addition, I think (but am not sure) that many useful features like existing JCMs would be disabled and would need to have the same function be recreated. Not sure about that, though.

evilproducer

I'm going to disagree with you on a couple points diomede.

As far as I can tell, Carrara's rigging is considered to be weight mapped. Maybe it's the terminology that's the issue?

As to saving the weight map, you can ironically save the weight map for the older Poser style figures, such as M3, V4, etc. but not your own Carrara rigged figures. Once you detach the rig from a natively rigged figure, you lose the weight map and have to start from scratch when it is re-attached. That's why I never weight paint until I have all the joints where I want them.

Regarding the saved weight maps, I would think you could redistribute them, as it would essentially be no different than a texture a texture map, except that it defines joint influences when loaded. It would have to be figure specific, in that a M4 weight map probably wouldn't work on a V4.

Can Genesis be weight painted? Can you save the maps as you can with a V4?

Diomede

evilproducer said:

I'm going to disagree with you on a couple points diomede.

As far as I can tell, Carrara's rigging is considered to be weight mapped. Maybe it's the terminology that's the issue?

As to saving the weight map, you can ironically save the weight map for the older Poser style figures, such as M3, V4, etc. but not your own Carrara rigged figures. Once you detach the rig from a natively rigged figure, you lose the weight map and have to start from scratch when it is re-attached. That's why I never weight paint until I have all the joints where I want them.

Regarding the saved weight maps, I would think you could redistribute them, as it would essentially be no different than a texture a texture map, except that it defines joint influences when loaded. It would have to be figure specific, in that a M4 weight map probably wouldn't work on a V4.

Can Genesis be weight painted? Can you save the maps as you can with a V4?

Great, yes. Thanks for correcting me. After using the weightpainting brush to adjust the bone influences, how do you save the weightmap for M3, V4, etc.? I bet it is going to be something simple, like File: save weightmap. But I am not someplace that I can check right now.

evilproducer

diomede64 said:

evilproducer said:

I'm going to disagree with you on a couple points diomede.

As far as I can tell, Carrara's rigging is considered to be weight mapped. Maybe it's the terminology that's the issue?

As to saving the weight map, you can ironically save the weight map for the older Poser style figures, such as M3, V4, etc. but not your own Carrara rigged figures. Once you detach the rig from a natively rigged figure, you lose the weight map and have to start from scratch when it is re-attached. That's why I never weight paint until I have all the joints where I want them.

Regarding the saved weight maps, I would think you could redistribute them, as it would essentially be no different than a texture a texture map, except that it defines joint influences when loaded. It would have to be figure specific, in that a M4 weight map probably wouldn't work on a V4.

Can Genesis be weight painted? Can you save the maps as you can with a V4?

Great, yes. Thanks for correcting me. After using the weightpainting brush to adjust the bone influences, how do you save the weightmap for M3, V4, etc.? I bet it is going to be something simple, like File: save weightmap. But I am not someplace that I can check right now.

I'll have to take a look- It's been a log time since I experimented with it. I seem to recall that it was a bit contextual, meaning if you weren't in the weight painting mode, you didn't see the option.... But I could be conflating that with saving the displacement maps created in the VM.

Roygee

May be hair-splitting, but it is important to get the terminology correct.

"Weightmapping" is a universal concept common to all applications - regardless whether it is the legacy DS figures, Genesis, Poser, Blender, Maya, Carrara, whatever. It defines the map of influences bones have on vertex groups. Same concept as UV mapping, texture mapping.

"Weightpainting" is one method of assigning weights to bones in order to make the weight map. This is the most common form of doing it in the CG world. The other method, of first assigning vertex groups, which generate bones, is, as far as I know, only used in DS/Poser. I don't know how Poser deals with it from 2012 onward - there seems to be a different approach from then, quite possibly weightpainting.

Carrara does not only do weightpainting (with a brush), but can also assign weights on a per vertex group basis using the "Bones" option in the weightmapping mode.

EP is correct as far as saving weightmaps is concerned - this option is only available in weightmapping mode and only for DS/Poser figures (Don't know about Genesis, as I have 8.1) What earthly use this function has has never been explained - it is pointless for the only figures on which it can be used and not available for the Carrara-rigged figures it would be useful to be used on :)

Diomede

Thanks, Roy. I think part of the terminology complexity is because in the Poser world the newer figures (Tyler, Dawn,...) that used the Poser 8 and above rigging system were called "weightmapped" as distinguished from earlier figures. Thus, over at the RDNA site (I can't link to it), there is a free product called "Weigthmapped V4" which refers to a version of V4 designed for Poser 8 and above. Therefore, when the question came up about weightmapping for V4, there is a natural confusion between that particular Poser 8+ system (which Fenric's plugin is designed for) and the system used by Carrara's interpretation of the Poser 1-7 (including Daz V4/M4) figures - which also uses the term weightmap.

In this terminology, there is already a "weightmapped V4", and it is not the V4 that comes in the default My Daz 3D Library Runtime, even though the default Daz V4 has "weightmapping" capable of being edited within Carrara.

This is how RDNA describes "Weightmapped V4"

"She is one of our favorite figures, now designed to showcase new and exciting features offered in this latest version of our favourite program. Victoria 4 (V4~WM) bends better than before, eliminating all those tough bends that had to be morph brush or postworked out. Through a well written python script, the original V4.2 is re-made with Poser's weight mapping technology. Clothing fits infinitely better once weight-map-converted. The steps to do this are exactly the same as in the comprehensive manual included with Antonia-WM and are surprisingly quick and easy to do. The new shader nodes in the newest version of Poser are also showcased in a shader set that re-defines how skin can look rendered in Poser 9 / Poser Pro 2012.

The V4-WM script is offered to the community under the same Creative Commons License as Antonia Polygon, with the same endless opportunities for further development.

Welcome to Victoria 4 – Weight-Mapped. The contents of this package are designed to convert your copy of the Victoria 4.2 figure (.cr2) to one that is weight-mapped. It will also convert the rigging of Victoria 4 to one that is far more accurate than the default. This re-rigging and weight-mapping has improved bending and scaling of this figure: Victoria 4 will move and bend and flex as you have never seen her do before."

Can be hard to keep the term "weightmapped" straight.

fixmypcmike

Poser 9+. 8 didn't have weightmapping.

Diomede

Thanks for the clarification, Mike. Maybe the reason that I thought it started with Poser 8 is that my edition of Poser has a regular version and a "weightmapped" version of the Poser 8 figures Ryan and Allyson.

I decided to try to do a native Carrara rig for the V4.2 mesh, but it didn't work out. I had what to me is a strange error. I tried to do a native rigging of V4 in Carrara just to see it. I am getting an error when I try to attach the new skeleton to the disembodied mesh. Seems strange. Here are the steps I followed if anyone can spot my mistake.

- loaded V4.2 from the My Daz3D Library Runtime.
- loaded some morphs from the Daz pose folder to V4 (base, morphs++, elite, and Aiko4)
- selected V4 and then used the EDIT: SMOOTH OBJECTS menu to convert the mesh away from smoothing
- selected the model and the skeleton hip, then used the animation tab to "detach skeleton."
- I then went in the vertex modeler, selected the whole mesh, and created a new morph zone called All1, and made and validated a sample morph.
- I then saved the V4 mesh (but not the old skeleton) to my objects browser
- I closed Carrara and started a new scene
- I loaded the detached mesh from the objects browser
- I used the bone tools to create a new native Carrara skeleton for V4.2
- I selected the hip bone and the mesh, then tried to "attach skeleton"
- I got an error (which I did not expect).

Thoughts?

Diomede

I exported and imported the V4 mesh to get a clean obj. I was able to rig it using Carrara's native bone tools, but it lost all the Daz morphs. My initial guess is that a native Carrara rig of V4 would lose more in terms of the preset morphs than it would be worth.

Roygee

I also got this error when attempting to attach a Carrara skeleton to a V4 model which had been stripped of the skeleton. When doing this with a V4 which had the skeleton stripped out, but without saving to the browser, the option to attach skeleton is greyed out.

I guess that when you detach the skeleton, you are breaking the .cr2, which is why you loose all morphs ERC, etc. I'm pretty sure that back in the day, around C6 or 7, we used to do this experimentally and it worked - but I could be mistaken. We were then more concerned with trying to use the skeleton on a home-made figure than re-rigging Daz figures. This did work, but far more trouble than it was worth.

BTW, when you detach a skeleton, you only select the model, not the model and skeleton.

About weightmapping - they probably didn't refer to it as "weightmapping" in the older Poser, but that is what you were actually doing when making a .cr2 figure, as the term is commonly understood in the CG world.

In fact, skinning - which is the action of attaching a skeleton (or armature, as it is more commonly known) is not the only use of weightmapping. When you paint a distribution map on a terrain, for instance, you are actually weightmapping. In Blender, exactly the same tool and process is used for bone influences as for distributing instances on terrain and many other functions where you need varying influences.

Jonstark

Lol, you guys are ahead of me, but at some point I'm going to have to give this a try too, just to see what can happen. I think I have Carrara ADD, I keep losing myself in new projects and disappearing into them... I appreciate the notes of clarification for terms and what's possible as well as the crib notes of what kind of things this approach might run into.

I'm actually in a really good position here, I think. I get to hang out with and learn from people who are much smarter and more knowledgeable on the subject (you guys!) :)

Mistara

how do you activate the carrara weight map tool?

thanks.

Mistara

found it in the vertex model, animate, select a faces

Mistara

the manual says it can save a weightmap  .cwm

i no seeing a save button.