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EDIT: Hmmm, I accidentally posted under my eallenvt account. This is, however, ModernWizard.
marshian -- I'm having loads of fun. Learning this new tool provides challenges and plenty of rewards. No easy answers out of the box, but all my frustrations and failures teach me more about the Kaleidoscope. When I do have the techniques to create a passable render, I will be very knowledgeable!
Re shaders: your discussion of standard Daz Studio shaders and UberSurface shaders explains why I can sometimes find tiling under "Horizontal/Vertical Tiles" and then sometimes it goes away. The "Horizontal/Vertical Tiles" must be options only with standard Daz Studio shaders, while "Map Tiling U/V" must be UberSurface options, right?
So, if I have a clothing item with a standard Daz Studio shader, this is the process I should use.
1. Conform clothing item to figure.
2. Apply shader to desired surfaces.
3. Select desired surfaces and apply Reflections Off Kaleidoscope shader.
4. Re-adjust tiling with "Map Tiling U/V" parameters.
5. Render to check results.
Does an UberSurface "Map Tiling U/V" of 10 x 10 = a standard Daz Studio shader "Horizontal/Vertical Tiling" of 10 x 10?
Incidentally, do you know if the Kaleidoscope works with node instances? It didn't seem to be picking up all my node instances of plants, but perhaps the camera angle prevented them from showing.
My render of people in an infinite hallway inches closer to reality...
--MW
Hi MW... hope you don't mind my 2cents.... You got me thinking about instances... I did this quick test... The instances DO NOT mirror... even the original genesis doesn't mirror... they don't even cast a shadow and I have cast shadow ON... weird... (btw... making a DUPLICATE does cast shadows and mirrors... like the red ball)... also... notice I that have a black line in my render??? It seems that my graphics card can't handle more than 32 Max Ray Trace... I'm thinking others may have this trouble too. I've done a lot of experimenting and even if I make the number bigger than 32.. it doesn't matter. :( (sighs)... Not sure how to get around this. I've been angling the camera so the black line doesn't show in my renders. Mostly for far away renders.. close ups aren't that noticeable... thank god for DOF!!! It hides a lot!
Oh.. I forgot to mention.. there is 1 original genesis and 5 instance genesis in my render above. So none of them are mirrors :(
MW,
Yes to all!
I have instances working in the render attached. There is only one real table set with six instances, the rest are reflections.
Also- I used the the No Reflection shader on Genesis and all related clothing/props.
This rendered in just over seven minutes.
Will this guy ever find the ocean? It looks like he has a few hours of light left.
hum... Marsh.. Not sure how you got instances to reflect... maybe it's my graphics card??? no shadow for me either... Heeeeeelp!!!!
Hi llolalane,
Yeah- a bunch of weird things happnin' here and I'm not sure how to address them. Usually when I have several unexpected things happening I'll start over by building a very simple test scene with just primitives.
- the black line I could address by seeing a screen cap or your working view, but my best guess is that if you have gone to 32 for raytrace depth you have reached the end.
You must have unchecked "use limits" correct? The blackness, so appropriate right?, is the void that gobbles everything up. I didn't go this far in any of my promo pics and used a haze camera to build an atmosphere for depth beyond the 32 drop off.
I can help address some more of whats going on in your render with some more info, there is so much going on (with your message above) that I don't really know where to start. See if a simple scene rebuild gives better results.
Hi llolalane,
Yeah- a bunch of weird things happnin' here and I'm not sure how to address them. Usually when I have several unexpected things happening I'll start over by building a very simple test scene with just primitives.
- the black line I could address by seeing a screen cap or your working view, but my best guess is that if you have gone to 32 for raytrace depth you have reached the end.
You must have unchecked "use limits" correct? The blackness, so appropriate right?, is the void that gobbles everything up. I didn't go this far in any of my promo pics and used a haze camera to build an atmosphere for depth beyond the 32 drop off.
I can help address some more of whats going on in your render with some more info, there is so much going on (with your message above) that I don't really know where to start. See if a simple scene rebuild gives better results.
Hi Marsh.. yes... that was a quickie render... very simple... I'm in a hurry... gotta make dinner... i'll play more later.. I'm usually good at solving puzzles... (fingers crossed)
Hi Marsh.. yes... that was a quickie render... very simple... I'm in a hurry... gotta make dinner... i'll play more later.. I'm usually good at solving puzzles... (fingers crossed)
btw.. that's why i added the red balls... cause nothing was reflecting or making shadow... weird. The genesis are INSIDE of the triangle with a plane as a floor and a plane as a roof... they are en-capsuled in the triangle.
ok. got some more info to share... been playing with INSTANCES...
Not sure if it's my graphics card or this is a general rule... but...
INSTANCES of people don't MIRROR or SHADOW... DUPLICATES mirror and shadow just fine
INSTANCES of props MIRROR and SHADOW just fine...
I've made a few renders below.. I think you can see what I'm talking about.
also.. the REFLECTION OFF.. works great on people as Marsh showed us earlier.
1) Mirrored DUPLICATE Genesis... reflection ON
2) Mirrored instances of the umbrellas... reflection ON on Genesis
3) Mirrored instances of the umbrellas... reflection OFF on Genesis
Yippee! I successfully used the Kaleidoscope and DOF to produce a passable render!
Here's my question, though. I have activated simple DOF by using Point At... = body part I want to focus on. In the first attachment, the camera is pointing at the head of the character on the left, and it works.
I don't know, however, how to activate DOF for pictures like the second one. I want the whole upper body framed, but pointing the camera at a single body part [or even the whole person] does not produce the desired result. Any tips? For this particular shot, I'm going to try to fix it with some blur in Photoshop, but there's got to be a way to do it in Daz Studio....
--MW
Hi MW... hope you don't mind me trying to help... You're getting there.. YAY!!!
I don't use POINT AT when I use DOF... it's not very reliable and I like to have some control when I focus... I've included a few renders to hopefully help... to get MORE DOF... lower the f-stop (see my sample below) also.. the samples were quick renders.. so make sure you set up the render settings as I said earlier ;)
Hope this helps!
correction... OK.. this is really weird.. I got to thinking.. maybe it's only Genesis that's got an instance problem??? sure enough... Victoria 4 instance renders just fine mirrored! weird... for sure!
Just discovered that as well, V4 instances and figure will reflect. And I remembered the Lux Lucis render (also with V4) that worked.
I converted all Genesis surfaces to default gray and it had no effect, still does not reflect figure or instances. However- it is only when instances of Genesis are created that that it will not reflect. That instancing must change the base figure somehow. It does fine on it's own lookey here: (Promo Pic).
I'm going to wrap this up and call it a bug. I don't think it's worth reporting as there is already a new version of DS out... that I haven't tried yet.
On with the show folks!
O.k.. Marsh.. sorry to hog the thread.. I just didn't want people to think it was something wrong with the package... and you should know for your own information in case someone asks... FYI. I've tried several characters.. Michael 6... Gianni... Girl 6... none of them are node instancing... What character did you use in your Promo Pic please??? I'm gonna make a list. :)
Hi Llola -- thanks for the screencaps. I clearly have to do more work on DOF because I can't figure out how to make it start and stop in a certain range, so, when I wasn't using Point At, I just faked it in the other renders in the series I posted earlier.
I feel like I've made an exciting discovery! All this time I was using Perspective View as my main cam and so never really knew about the capabilities of actual cameras in DS!
--MW
EDIT: Flipmode has a very straightforward and well illustrated tutorial on controlling DOF right here. wilmap, since you said that you were not really familiar with DOF, this tutorial, which tells you what to do and how to do it, might help you.
Can I add my experiences - after reading llolalane's posts about instances not reflecting, I did a few experiments (I didn't save the resulting images, so can't post).
Genesis (1) and G2 - adding instances makes the original fail to reflect, as well as the instances. If I hide (little eye symbol) the instances then the original and it's reflections appear in the render.
I wondered if this was the case only for Genesis figures so I tried some animals:
DAZ Horse 2 - fails just like Genesis
Alessandro AM's Kangeroos - work perfectly
Weird or what? I wondered if it was a triax/non-triax thing perhaps, but the Kangeroos appear to be triax too.
I hope to try a few more figures this evening - despite the weirdness, I'm really enjoying the product, by the way :-)
Hi llolalane,
Yeah- a bunch of weird things happnin' here and I'm not sure how to address them. Usually when I have several unexpected things happening I'll start over by building a very simple test scene with just primitives.
- the black line I could address by seeing a screen cap or your working view, but my best guess is that if you have gone to 32 for raytrace depth you have reached the end.
You must have unchecked "use limits" correct? The blackness, so appropriate right?, is the void that gobbles everything up. I didn't go this far in any of my promo pics and used a haze camera to build an atmosphere for depth beyond the 32 drop off.
I can help address some more of whats going on in your render with some more info, there is so much going on (with your message above) that I don't really know where to start. See if a simple scene rebuild gives better results.
I'm also getting the black areas in the render, and the odd thing is that if I try to aply the highest reflection setting the Render Settings still say "16" in the raytrace, not 32. You said something about unckecking "use limits" - where would I find that? My graphics card is a GTX660 by the way, is that inadequate?
I attach an image where I tried to reproduce your Ra's Palace render to show the blackness. A fog camera helps up to a point - see second image.
Uncheck "use limits" is- render settings / max ray trace depth / gear icon (I never had to use this though, I still haven't)
I'm posting a screen cap of the easiest solution (top image below) which is to raise your camera just a bit, tilt it down until the Kaleidoscope prop runs off the top of your render area and out of camera view (may need to increase "Y" scale) , and then bump up your haze/fog. I did this for the Ras Palace render I posted in this thread. This turns the blackness into a distant sky because you don't see the line of where to K3D prop ends in the distance.
In the desert you might not see haze this thick but it sure does the job to add some real depth. If anything it brightens the scene to make it feel even hotter.
My other suggestion (second screen cap) which is a little more work but allows the sky to show- is to line up the camera with the top of the prop, so that it is at the very same height as the top edge of the prop. This will make the two sides receding sides of the kaleidoscope prop appear as one straight line. Combining this with a fog cam the K3D prop in the distance (previous black area) can look like distant architecture or the horizon line. This is tricky as the Kaleidoscope prop needs to be tall enough so that the palm tree reflections do not get cut off.
Are you using the Aux Viewport IPR? This will make things so much easier.
I have to unload the dishwasher and put groceries away (keeping it real), I'll check back here later and see if you have any more questions.
Thanks for those hints, I'll have to try that. As I said, I'm having a lot of fun along the way!
I don't have a gear icon in my Render Settings panel - perhaps that is new in DS 4.8? I'm still running 4.6.3.52 because it works well for me (in most respects) and I have heard of people having problems with 4.7. I'd quite like to try the 4.8 Beta (IRay, Aux Viewport, etc) but I have a low monthly broadband download allowance and enough trouble downloading all the products I buy (massive backlog still) without the 200 MB of DS plus 100's of MB of updated Starter Essentials.
@llolalane - I've been doing some experiments with reflections this evening. I just used a reflective wall for this, rather than the Kaleidoscope, but got exactly the same results.
I found that most of the recent figures (animals as well as people) have this problem, except for Alessandro AM's animals. By comparing his figures with the others (there had to be SOMETHING) I discovered that the difference was the Mesh Resolution - set to high the figure fails to reflect once the instance is created, set to Base and it reflects properly!
Here's an interesting experiment I did. From left to right I have a G2M as he loads (Mesh Resolution High), then an Instance of him, then a G2M with the mesh resolution set to Base and an instance of that. I clothed the figures (so I could post here) and set the shirt on the High Res G2M to Base Res but left the pants at High Res. As you can see the shirt reflects but the pants and figure itself do not.
I then tried using a primitive sphere and an instance - as you discovered, these work fine. HOWEVER if you sub-d the sphere then instance it, that will also disappear from the render. The sub-d sphere is the pink one on the left in the second image.
I guess this is a bug in DS?
Hi Llola -- thanks for the screencaps. I clearly have to do more work on DOF because I can't figure out how to make it start and stop in a certain range, so, when I wasn't using Point At, I just faked it in the other renders in the series I posted earlier.
I feel like I've made an exciting discovery! All this time I was using Perspective View as my main cam and so never really knew about the capabilities of actual cameras in DS!
--MW
EDIT: Flipmode has a very straightforward and well illustrated tutorial on controlling DOF right here. wilmap, since you said that you were not really familiar with DOF, this tutorial, which tells you what to do and how to do it, might help you.
hi MW... when you move the F-stop you will see the lines move in and out for DOF focus... I show them with the yellow dotted line... If you play with the F-stop.. you will see it. ;)
I've not seen the flipmode tutorial... but then again when I was first learning about DOF I read LOTS of tutorials and finally pieced it all together by playing.
You will get it... I can't wait to see what you come up with next ;)
Sorry not answered earlier.. had a funeral to go to today :(... I'm back now for a little while til bedtime :)
MelanieL... I've done pretty much the same experiments you have with the same results... I'm not familiar with the technical stuff of DAZ... I'm just chalking it up to my graphics card.. LOL Gotta blame it on something.. right???
Anyway... if you want.. feel free to PM me.. I don't want to take up this thread with my chitter chatter... winks.
Below I found a chart I copied when I was first looking at settings in DAZ... You may want to keep it handy... I refer to it often.. It may help everyone else too... not sure where I got it.
If you read the chart .. it explains about ray trace... so... if we are using 32 (going higher than 32 doesn't seem to make a difference... I put 500 one time and I still got the same black results)... it would 32x32 reflections = 1024 reflections and then it's done... anything past that is BLACK... cause it can't go any further... plus... if anything IN the scene is reflective that will take up some of the 1024 too... I think... lol.. so... best thing to do is cut off the black.. or try and move the camera so it doesn't show... That's what I've been doing. Hopefully that explains WHY the black is there. I think it's the limit of DAZ or my graphics card... or both... NOT the Kaleidoscope kit.
Melanie.. FYI... the "gear" is in the MAX RAY TRACE DEPTH Box (the little gray cogwheel... click it and another box opens up to change the defaults and to take off limits!!!)... in fact... all the command boxes have that little gear!!!.. you can change the default setting with that little gear!!! Yep.. that's right... I've been having a field day with it... No longer and I'm Stuck with default settings.. the sky's the limit... at least for my graphics card limit... LOL
very interesting Melanie... I'm not sure I understand all of what you said.. but I get the gist.... :) I guess I won't be using people instances in my mirrors... Duplicates work just fine ;)
I'm thinking it has something to do with they way the newer characters are made.. 4th generations instance just fine... (sighs)... another puzzle I don't know how to fix...
Anyway.. having fun with mirrorz... they rock... Thanks Marsh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well I finally got back to this and tried your second suggestion, which worked pretty well I think. (First pic below)
Then I spent a lot of time playing with the Kaleidoscope with some other scenery - here are a couple of results, one on Jack Tomalin's Baroque Grandeur and one on his Saba'a AlKhair - this really is fun! :-)
Those are WONDERFUL Melanie... I can see lots of uses for this product ;)
Wow there are some interesting developments here! I haven't received notices that there were more posts here, now I have all this candy...
And a solution to Genesis disappearing (Sub-D)! Thanks MelanieL and llolalane for keeping this going.
I've never seen that Render chart before, cool.
my pleasure Marsh... Not sure why you aren't getting posts... I think the forum gets fickled sometimes... happens to me all too often too. I just do another post and all of a sudden I get notices again.
Anyway... glad you like the chart... It's been a god send to me over the past few years... not sure where I got it... but I refer to it often ;)
I'll have to play with the SUB D stuff later... I'm in the middle of a texturing challenge.
Another post for everyone to enjoy! I gotta glam things up ya know... winks
This uses the haze camera Marsh suggested... pretty cool.. huh??? ENJOY!
Of course I'm lacking the preview window (which would be nice to have) and I don't have the cog-wheel thingies in my Render Options (so can't go above 16 on raytracing) - I'm waiting for the non-Beta 4.8 to come out in a stable form, then perhaps I'll update.
Oh Melanie... you gotta update to 4.7... It's stable and you CAN have all the little features you are missing ;)
The whole Sub-D stuff is beyond me... lol. You are smarter than me to figure it out.. There's soooo much I have to learn in Daz yet.
Glad you like my render.. thanks :)