Best workflow for rigging fbx models for Carrara use? (And some new videos)

teknostorm

Hi,

NOTE: My question is how to rig fbx (and c4d) models for use in Carrara. Not how to import bvh and aniMate files into carrara! (Edit added to avoid confusion!~)

I would like to import some fbx characters and animate them in Carrara using aniMate and bvh files, and also using normal Carrara posing controls (to make them sit, wave etc). I also want to make them lip sync using Mimic Pro.

What is the best workflow to doing this? Should I do this in Carrara, Daz, or some other third party software? I have 3dexchange from iclone but I have zero experience with rigging!

I would also like to do these with Cinema4D characters (already rigged). How do I import into Carrara with rigging and textures?

Also, here are some new videos I did completely in Carrara (except for some edits in Sony Vegas Pro editing software) -

Wheels On The Bus -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leDToFy9z1k
(I could not figure out how to make the wipers of the bus move. It's 'curious bus' purchased from daz store. I did manage to make the doors and wheels move.)

Twinkle Twinkle Little Star -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXtV7KjPH5c

Old MacDonald Had A Farm (2 versions) -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgDny7ik3ng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6KOobSwfXY

(I rendered the dancers separately, and the animals separately. I used the same rendered animals sequence in both the videos).

evilproducer

I don't have any experience importing animated fbx files.

I assume you have the Animate plugin for Carrara? Also, I think the Animate files are probably designed to work with specific rigs aren't they? I know bvh files are kind of like that, unless you want to go through and re-name all fbx the bones to match the bvh file. There may be utilities to help with that.

As to rigging, it is pretty much application specific, so I don't know if you can import a C4D rigged figure. DAZ 3D's figures are a bit different in that DAZ 3D started making and selling figures for Poser. When Posers future was uncertain, DAZ 3D built DAZ Studio to use their figures, so they could keep selling them. DAZ bought Carrara and added the ability to use Poser Content in Carrara natively.

WendyLuvsCatz

If you have iClone 3dxchange pipeline do any of the following

for a generic bvh of web
import your animation if it is a bvh into carrara create new skeketon
export it as an fbx it is a stick figure carrara adds mesh
load that into iClone 3dxchange an retarget it, most use 3DsMax or Maya
you can then save the animation as an iMotion to put on your figures in iClone or on exported FBX ones
you cannot apply the motion in carrara but several motions off the same imported character can be saved as NLA clips and reused on others with the same bones if you make each an animation group.

You can export a grey genesis with any motion from DAZ studio and retarget it with the preset and also save those motions as iMotions

you can export iClone characters with included imotions and use in Carrara

you can export a bvh from 3dxchange pipeline choosing hip and apply it to a DAZ character via import in DAZ Carrara or Poser

WendyLuvsCatz

Mimic trickier
you have to use reallusion bones in carrara to pose expressions and save NLA clips for each viseme
you can in iclone record each of the visemes using you voice the animation will export as motion plus
you can save just the head motions as a NLA clip if you untick the rest after making the import an animation group.

WendyLuvsCatz

Basically the following limitations apply
iClone figures MUST be imported into Carrara with motions
you can reuse those motions on other iClone figures the same generation if you make them animation groups under animation create animation group and save it as an NLA clip
Daz motions must be applied in 3DXchange
they cannot use them in carrara
DAZ figure re-exported from iClone via 3Dxchange also become animated props only though you can like iClone figures save the NLA clips too
it is best just to export the motion using hip not root node as a bvh and apply that to DAZ charcters loaded from your library or runtime etc

I have probably confused you totally

and important, you can only use C8.5 not C8.1

teknostorm

evilproducer - yes I do have animate plugin and it works fine with daz figures in carrara. There must be some format to rig figures, as model creators rig them for Carrara.

wendy - I think I worded my question wrong, I have added a note in my original post! I wanted to know how to rig an fbx character so that it can be animated in Carrara. Figures like these, that lack rigging, or are rigged fbx, obj or c4d files -

http://tf3dm.com/3d-model/superman-39631.html

http://tf3dm.com/3d-model/minions-fully-rigged-41938.html

WendyLuvsCatz

those if rigged can be retargetted and animated in iClone 3dxchange first and exported to carrar
or you if an obj can line it up to a V4 (easier) or genesis,( trickier) posed to match it and select the figures hip and you obj and go to animation attach skeleton then hide your V4 or genesis

teknostorm

Thanks I will try that! But if I understand right, the 3dxchange method will import characters with animation into Carrara, while the other one will need me to always load V4 with the character each time

But what i really want is to rig the figure and save it so I can load it independently into Carrara and pose it using inverse kinematics etc just like any other Daz specific character.

Do be specific, how do I rig and save this figure (it's a free download using the download button on the page) so I can load it anytime and pose it and animate it just a V4 or Genesis or any 3D universe toon -
http://tf3dm.com/3d-model/elsa-frozen-9653.html

I would also like to use Mimic Pro on it, just like I do with any 3duniverse character or genesis or v4 character.
Neole

teknostorm

btw the above character loads beautifully into Carrara with all textures, and I can see the bones as triangles. But moving the triangles just moves the triangles, it does not move the character.

WendyLuvsCatz

if you want to reuse it as a DAZ figure DAZ studio transfer utility on Genesis your best bet, rig it like you would clothes in DAZ studio and save as a support asset a duf file

teknostorm

Thanks!! Now reading up on the documentation on this utility I'm hearing of for the first time :)

What about using the saved duf file with Mimic Pro, what would I have to do for that?

WendyLuvsCatz

create morphs
it all gets very complicated very quickly

3DAGE

Hi Technostorm :)

The Animate motions, were originally done for V4 / M4, and would work on characters for those figures,.
If you try using those on a Genesis figure, then the feet are distorted and the walk looks rather strange.
there are some new aniblocks made for genesis which work better on those figures. but again , won't work wlll on V4/M4 or any other differently rigged figure.

Essentially,.. it comes down to the simple fact that most animations are not created to be used on a wide range of figures,.

Animations which work well are normally created for that specific character, eg; a skinny nervous figure, or a big heavy figure will move differently.
So, don't expect to get instantly fantastic animated figure by importing an FBX, re-rigging it in carrara, and applying an animate clip.

BONE NAMES :
Most animations are created for a Specific figure, or "rig", and the exported animation contains the names of the bones in that rig, and the motions of those bones (for example FBX or BVH, but also aniblocks)

If you were to import a model with the intention of rigging it and using specific animation files on it, ..then the Bones (rigging) you create will need to match the names of the bones contained in the animation files. 100%

Mimic in DS was pretty similar, and would work best on a default V3 / M3 / V4 /M4 etc.
the most common user issue was "distortion" caused by using a Customised face shape" and not realising that the default visemes would no longer match that custom face shape.

Mimic in Carrara is built for "you" to create your characters face and then create visemes quickly by creating various NLA poses. (as Wendy pointed out)

Rigging any model in Carrara is the same process, irrespective of the model's original format.
Import you model and create bones, set constraints, add IK, create null's (Target helper objects) to control the rig

If your model is already rigged and animated, then it should (in theory) be able to be imported with that motion.
in practice, it;'s less straight forward, due to various differences between the same file formats, eg FBX version 1,2,3, etc
DAE, DazDAE etc..

One option could be to Import the OBJ version of your FBX model, into Daz3D Studio, then use the Transfer utility to add Genesis rigging to the model,. then you can use that with Genesis anmate blocks and use it in Carrara with NLA clips.

Hope it helps :)

teknostorm

Thanks 3DAge, its starting to make sense now, but very fadedly :)

Wendy - 'create morphs' for using Mimic Pro - should that be done in Carrara or Daz or another software?

Thanks!

WendyLuvsCatz

teknostorm said:

Thanks 3DAge, its starting to make sense now, but very fadedly :)

Wendy - 'create morphs' for using Mimic Pro - should that be done in Carrara or Daz or another software?

Thanks!

whatever you find easiest, hexagon bridge and softselect to create morph targets another way
I have enough trouble getting triax rigged stuff into mimic pro and anyhow often resort to using the default dmc file in notepad and renaming using the new morphs I do many Poser animals this way as they crash mimic.

3DAGE

Hi Technostorn :)

If your Figure has no morphs then you'll need to create some basic morphs targets in Carrara, (vertex modeller)
Once you have some morphs to play with you can create different mouth poses (visemes) using the morph sliders, and going to the NLA tab and clicking "Make master pose" (then name it)

Once you have a bunch of saved viseme poses,. then you can use Mimic in Carara to set up what sound (from your audio file) triggers what Mouth pose.

There are some standard sounds and standard mouth shapes, like CH, Aah, Ooh, etc,. which are different shapes
but you'll also notice that some shapes like B, P, M, all look very similar,... when you try them.

Mirrors are useful for making morphs :)

WendyLuvsCatz

Your videos are very cute BTW.

teknostorm

Wendy - I'm trying the Daz transfer utility and its not working out well, maybe because of the long skirt (I will try again). Is it possible to do the rigging in iclone xchange? I have some experience with the whole 'Convert to Non-Standard' and 'setting T-Pose', but I only used it to convert animations, not models. I have already got the fbx model in iclone xchange and converted to non-standard and in the preview it is dancing and flexing fingers etc just fine. Just dont know the next step. If iclone xchange can do it, what format would I have to export the models as?

Thanks about the videos :)

3dAge - that sounds like something I can follow (hazily). I only need a very few morphs, the vowels and maybe p and t etc. Don't need very accurate movement, so maybe I might be able to get something done.

teknostorm

Well I exported the model from 3dxchange (in which the model was previewing perfectly doing the dance walks clenching fingers etc) as fbx. When I import this into Carrara moving the skeleton moves the hand, but without any inverse kinetics or limits. So the hand can be moved but the forearm just stretches to adjust. It does not force the arm and shoulder to move and adjust naturally.

teknostorm

Mixamo gives me an 'Error: Unknown error occured when uploading file'. Maybe because all the joint names in the fbx file are in japanese?

WendyLuvsCatz

You need to create IK in carrara or pose using only rotate tool never translate
select hip and under animation create IK ball joint inc children for a quickie
you can for each joint under motion set limits locking some depending on the joint.
Carrara only DAZ product that can import working FBX from other apps DS and Poser cannot which is why I suggested the iClone route
you can create morph targets in carrara too bake on timeline and export it to use in 3Dxchange expression editor.
Sadly these do not export back to Carrara though as 3dx5 turns them into Blendshapes they work in iClone of course so can always composite video from there.

For DAZ you need to create new child bones for the cape and assign vertices to them using the geometry editor tool and weight painting brush.
Google DAZ3D forum ghost bones to find numerous posts on it by many including me.
There are many rigging tutorials too by Patience and Sickleyield among others mostly on DeviantArt.
The book by Blondie999 in DAZ store is quite good too though many tools are differently named etc as DS4.5.

teknostorm

Thanks for all the information Wendy! I did read your posts on other forums as well, and you are an expert beyond imagination! I never knew it was possible to take a 3d screen cap from a game and extract a model from the scene, it simply blew out my mind!

For my current progress -

- Pose using rotate only is a clever idea and works. I am now trying out creating IK in carrara and it seems to be working out.

- I don't need to import in Daz or Poser, only Carrara (as animation is my aim, and I own Octane render plugin only for Carrara for now) so FBX is ok for me.

- I still do not get how to save face morphs in the characters in Carrara, but that's the next step.

Another question -

Seeing as I will be busy with animation, and rigging is time consuming, I want to hire someone to do it for me. But all the riggers I have contacted are used to rigging in 3dMax/Maya etc and do not know about Daz/Carrara formats in detail (if at all). What must I ask a rigging person to deliver to me so that the delivered character will import and animate perfectly in Carrara, hopefully including expressions and lip sync (using Mimic Pro). If I can provide them the exact details of what I need, the rigging artists can probably deliver.

teknostorm

I've just bought the blondie rigging tutorial and am going thru it. Face morphing but lip sync isn't covered I think.. is there another tutorial for that?

WendyLuvsCatz

well in carrara in the vertex room you select an area or the whole model and create a morph and with in that morph targets that you then edit move some vertices and validate, I rotate eyeballs, softselect open or close lips, move tongue move bits of cheek etc, can practice on a sphere making all different morphs

WendyLuvsCatz

DAZ studio you import obj variations under morphloader
must only move vertices not change face count

I tend to not go to sites like TF3DM myself as they are mostly game rips and while I have myself ripped stuff from games that I have on my PC to look at the mesh would never redistribute them.
Like DAZ does not allow redistributing mesh I am pretty sure game company's would be less than thrilled
I am not going to say do not just it would limit what you could legally do with it, pretty much useless for any commercial endeavour
maybe a personal use like a card for a friend or something would be about it

teknostorm

Thanks again for the info!

Yes I'm aware of the legal limitations of game rips, or of using copyrighted characters in any form even if I model them myself. But there are a few obj files I have bought, like a set of cartoon alphabets ( http://www.turbosquid.com/3d-models/cartoon-alphabet-max/747507 ) and some animal models that I am unable to do much with since they do not move in Carrara like daz figures do. Famous characters are just easier for me to practise and learn with! (The above alphabet I discovered after buying will open only in 3d max and no other software, so now it's pretty much useless to me as I don't own max.)

So once I have learnt how to rig myself, I plan to get someone to rig them for me, but as of now I haven't found anyone who can rig for Daz/Carrara. They all say they will rig in 3d max/maya and export in whatever format I want. They do not know how to rig natively in Daz/Carrara. And I am unable to tell them any format that will work with Daz/Carrara for sure... I wish the manual gave some detail about the formats, so that the models could be rigged according to that format and imported in Carrara.

One more question -

Do I have to rig in Daz (the blondie manual makes it look simple, though tedious), or can I do it in Carrara also? Because the fbx files open perfectly in Carrara with textures and those triangle bone things, but in Daz the fbx files open without any bones, and without any textures. If I can do it in Carrara, is there a tutorial for it, as the tools mentioned in the manual don't seem to be available in Carrara.

WendyLuvsCatz

Rigging in DAZ studio would make it useable in DAZ studio, Carrara and Poser as well as FBX exportable.
Carrara it is only useable in Carrara or exportable as FBX to say iClone, Unity or Unreal game engine, etc not any other DAZ compatible software like DAZ studio or Poser.
Already FBX rigged models pretty much work in all the examples I listed and of course 3dsMAX, Maya etc as the Carrara exports would too but NOT DAZ and Poser to put it simply Carrara has a better import capability than DAZ studio or Poser.
But it does not do DAZ/Poser rigging.

So if you only want to use it in Carrara fine you can but must animate it yourself manually, you can create morphs in Carrara too but you cannot use it with DAZ/Poser animations or any other premade animations unless you do it via iclone 3dxchange pipeline.

But if you want to rig objects yourself by scratch modeled by you or others the most universal choice is DAZ studio or Poser and preferably legacy rigging rather than triax if going to use in Poser, using the same bone names as V4 Genesis etc and tpose will make compatible with aniblocks etc too.

Carrara has its own rigging that is Carrara only just like Blender, MAX etc all do none work in DAZ studio or Poser with DAZ studio or Poser content.

WendyLuvsCatz

By the way, just to clear things up
My own modeling and rigging sucks big time!!!

I buy DAZ content, LOTS of DAZ content for that reason :lol:
I am only trying to tell you how to do it and have said it is not easy, if it were more would be doing it!

Mythmaker

Wendy contributes greatly to this community by making a process that is complex and opaque (like rigging) look so much easier and accessible.

teknostorm said:

So once I have learnt how to rig myself, I plan to get someone to rig them for me, but as of now I haven't found anyone who can rig for Daz/Carrara. They all say they will rig in 3d max/maya and export in whatever format I want. They do not know how to rig natively in Daz/Carrara.

Do I have to rig in Daz (the blondie manual makes it look simple, though tedious), or can I do it in Carrara also? Because the fbx files open perfectly in Carrara with textures and those triangle bone things, but in Daz the fbx files open without any bones, and without any textures. If I can do it in Carrara, is there a tutorial for it, as the tools mentioned in the manual don't seem to be available in Carrara.

Typically pro riggers aren't trained in prosumer rigging system. Good news is, rigging in DS/ Carrara is not as hard as the first look.

I'm new to Carrara and Daz Studio rigging, not an expert but the info is still fresh, so this is how I break it down...

DS (Daz Studio) has more refined/ involved bone weight (TriAx) system than Carrara/ Poser. Hence better and naturalistic bends of models. Hence, as you've noted, quite tedious process, compared to Poser bones or other "common" bones.

And bone systems are proprietory, and Wendy has laid out translation/ conversion possibilities.

If the intention is to animate realistic human with naturalistic movement, DS TriAx is highly recommended (my choice). Extra benefit of automated bone weight transfer between old and new clothing too, with DS Transfer Utility.

Caveat of using TriAx rigs:
- integrated recently to Carrara but still has extra layers of complexity when used in Carrara
- TriAx rigs's refined joints behavior can't be exported beyond Daz3D
- steep learning curve of DS toolsets and jargons

If the intention is to rig cartoony animals and human (seems to be your focus) Carrara's native bone system is sufficient. Simpler too. You can almost start immediately. Downside, can't use Carrara bone rigs in DS.

Also, most cartoon robots, motor vehicles won't need bones.

Check out Carrara rigging basics:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJZlzko6nD8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4N2jx0gc5I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nx1K6yifaI

Hope that clarifies a bit...

evilproducer

You can actually make a fairly complex rig in Carrara.

I first bought Carrara when it was at version 5, just after DAZ bought them. I also bought Transposer, a plugin that allowed you to import Poser figures. I could never get it to work, but since I had bought a couple models at the same time, I had an impetus to bring them in. Since I wanted to do animation, I needed a rig.

The only way I could get an animated Poser style figure in C5, was to import the .obj file and learn how to rig and weight paint. This is my first video animated in Carrara with Digital I's T-rex model that I rigged and animated in C5. I also didn't know that Carrara had a shadow catcher at that point, so the shadows are created in PS, brought into FCP, and keyframed to try and match the action as best I could.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taejI7yb2R0

teknostorm

Wendy - Thanks for all the info, it's starting to make sense now. It takes me 3-4 readings each time just to process it, and then I have to go and reread old posts to refresh the earlier stuff, just like chemistry lessons back in school!

Mythmaker - thanks for the tips, I'll watch the videos. It gives me comfort to know carrara rigging is much simpler than daz. Indeed, my focus is only cartoony characters for now. Only thing is I would like to use aniMate files sometimes, so daz rigging might be better in the long run.

evilproducer - that video is incredible (both creatively and technically) and hilarious! And so many Kevin Wyeth's coming together to work on one project is simply Guinness book worthy :))

This is what I have learnt till now, is any of it wrong -

1. Standard rigged fbx files from 3dMax/Maya can be imported in Carrara and animated manually
2. Characters rigged in Daz will work with Poser & Carrara, but character rigged in Carrara will not work in Daz/Poser
3. There is a legacy rigging and Triax rigging. Legacy rigging with V4/Genesis bone names will make it poser,daz,carrara,animate compatible. Triax rigging will work with Daz and with some effort, with Carrara.
4. Lip sync would be by creating morphs using vertex modeller in Carrara, saving visemes and then to Mimic Pro.

Question -

Can lip sync mouth shape morphs be imported into Carrara, if someone has created them in another software? Meaning, if someone rigs a model for me in Maya/3dMax and also creates vowel/consonant morphs for it, and exports it as fbx, would the those mouth morphs also import into carrara?