iClone 8 and CC4 anyone?
marble
Posts: 7,500
Apparently CC4 and iClone 8 have been released.
Has anyone bought these new versions or had a chance to evaluate them? Anything worth knowing for DAZ Studio users? Such as how easy is the export/import between the two applications? What are the limitations (geografts/geoshells, etc.)? Do they compliment DAZ Studio or are they an alternative?
Post edited by marble on
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I had the previous version of CC3, but it got real expensive, real quick.
I looked at it but there seemed to be a necessity to buy other parts of the Reallusion suite to enable it to work with DAZ content. And all those modules amounted to a small fortune. I wondered whether they have made it any easier now.
I am still on iC6 and with my hardware it looks like staying that way sadly.
I would love to use it but without a RTX card to use Nvidia Omniverse I might as well stick to what I do now, it certainly means I do mostly use DAZ content though even though I have CC2 and some addons.
I realise it also has a great pipeline to Blender but I just cannot seem to get into Blender as a render engine even though I do sometimes use it for other things.
Its the shaders and materials mostly and it's node system, I cannot render anything decent looking out of the box
iClone itself on the otherhand is easy to use, I just don't have the specifications for it.
Hi there,
Yeah, I just downloaded the demos yesterday and have been trying them out. I used iClone 7 and CC3 a fair bit with my Daz models and while it took a bit of work and patience, I was able to get good results.
The new version is much simpler. Previously you would have to decide on whether to use the 3DXChange method of importing a Daz character or the CC3 method. 3DXChange was more accurate and better for unusual models, but took a lot more steps and a lot more tweaking before you could get started. CC3 was super easy, just drop in a Daz model and let the auto settings do their work, but it was harder to make corrections and customize as needed. I ended up using 3DXChange more often for the improved accuracy.
CC4 does away with all that by having a single pipeline. So far, it's super easy to just drop your Daz model into the software. No need to T-pose the model, no need for any fancy export settings, just make an FBX, load it, and it figures out the rest. The skeleton is really good and the defaults are working well but I haven't figured out how to transfer the facial morphs into the new expression system yet. So, right now I'm able to drop Mixamo animations on the Daz models very fast and very easy, but I can't get their eyes to blink yet. Will keep working on it, though!
They are mainly for game/avatar design and mostly for exporting from DS, so not sure what use most DS users would have for them. it's funny how reallusion reaps all the benefits of being able to rip off DAZ content, yet Daz/ Daz Studio users get the shaft, LOL
well you could say that about Blender, Unreal Engine, Unity, 3Dstudio Max, Maya which all have DAZ bridges and to some extent Carrara and Poser
the only difference is DAZ never made an iClone bridge
I do say that about those since most are one way as well, LOL he did specify how are they for Daz Studio users, so I assume he was wanting to know about the import to DS options which really are non existant.
Well, that would have been interesting but since it is not available that's the end of discussion for iClone to DAZ Studio.
Back to the other direction, though, I am interested in what can be done with DAZ Studio characters exported to iClone8 or CC4 (I'm still not sure why there are two applications or how they work together though). As you know there is a VR application called VAM (Virt-A-Mate) which allows for import of Genesis 3 characters into a kind of VR game engine and then applies physics and provides animation capabilities which are way beyond what can be done in DAZ Studio. My Oculus is gathering dust in a corner because I didn't take to the wearing of the headset and couldn't get used to focusing my eyes but the software is impressive for a Patreon funded one-man enterprise.
So coming back to iClone, I would have thought that similar features (soft-body physics, more advanced and faster animation capabilities) would be available in a non-VR environment, especially with such big company resources. So my question was really to find out whether iClone8/CC4 is worth a look because DAZ does not seem interested in providing such features in DAZ Studio for the foreseeable future. VAM works with G3 figures and the certain geografts that are available. I believe that the new version, which will import G8 figures, is still some way off but that's what you get with a development team of one. DAZ, however, is even slower with much better resources so go figure.
Odd…Not sure how giving iclone users an incentive to go over to the Daz store and $$buy$$ DAZ content is “ripping off” Daz.
The genesis characters are never actually “imported” but their shapes an textures are copied onto a native Iclone Avatar for full compatibility with all of Iclone’s features..the clothing and hair are transformed into native Iclone format as well.
If you do not already own Iclone 7 and CC3 you are facing a $900 USD buy-in to enter the Reallusion eco system with IC8 & CC4.
Even us version7&CC3 owners have to pay an upgrade price of $600 USD.
which is why I am sticking with my iclone 7/CC3 and the free blender pipeline
tool which supports importing& coverting to rigify and RETARGETING both Iclone/actor core body & face motion as well as Mixamo
(see the link to my youtube tutorial playlist )
Don’t get me wrong Iclone 8 is a LONG OVERDUE upgrade (in features) for those Iclone users who wish to remain exclusively within the reallusion ecosystem,
however for us Blender or UE5 users, it offers nothing we dont already have
and even less so in the area of rendering and VFX
No…the ability to EXPORT Daz content to other programs via ‘Bridges and such” is the core of the Daz business model as a 3D figure and content provider.
I personally see no reason for Daz to enable the import of external figures INTO Daz studio as Daz studio is purpose built to support the genesis figure platform..
Not a general 3DCC like blender where I can import figures from multiple Character eco-systems
( Daz studio,Iclone, even poser) via “bridges and such”.
Not until they have JCMs. God, their characters deform horribly compared to G8s.
VAM uses G2 figures with G8 support coming in version 2 and you can use it in desktop mode as well.
Basically what you are seeing is the difference between a game engine like Unity and just a regular 3D app that has specific features coded into it's programing, like DS. All IClone is, is a full featured, real time animation app. Think of it this way, CC4 is similar to the DS app, where you can use premade figures and morph them, clothe them, pose them, even render them. Think of iClone as a non scripted version of VAM or Unity with good animation tools. The features are there, real time lighting, physics, etc, but to have your figure do anything other than what you animate, you need a game engine to program it all together..
Honestly, if you are just looking for another app that has features you think should be in DS, then any game engine or high end modeling app like Maya would have that, BUT you will loose lots of the DS only tech that makes hair, clothing, etc work so well with Daz figures in DS. What really needs to happen is DAZ needs to make it easier and feasable to import more features and formats, that will increase their user base more than having bridges and such..
@FSMCDesigns yes, G2 not G3.
I was looking around for something that I might be able to migrate to which has those missing features but is not a start-from-scratch modeller like Blender. Even Blender with Diffeo is a bit of a schlep switching between DAZ Studio and Blender. As far as I know, DAZ Studio and Poser are the only two applications which are so similar - there isn't another like them. So it is a pity that neither has the wished-for features. I would pay for a DAZ Studio which could boast a decent cloth sim, a decent animation toolset and soft-body physics. Even a better real-time render engine because the version of Filament that is implemented right now is not even close to Eevee.
I took the plunge and upgraded to CC4 and iClone 8 just a day or so ago... Still downloading and making sure I have everything I'm entitled to, as I do get free upgrades to the plug-ins I already own, which is good.
I love Studio and I even love iRay (most of the time) but sometimes I just want my stories to move! I have never figured out Filament,and while I have achieved very moderate success in Blender, there are now so many versions of this software, I don't know which one I'm supposed to use? Animation is hard work, so if there are tools around that make it easier, I am happy to partake.
There are dozens of videos on YouTube showing what CC4 and iClone 8 software can do. It is quite overwhelming, really, almost too much to comprehend and of course, the big question is whether I can do any of it??? Well, probably not, but I'll have a go, I guess.
I did try my first import from Studio into CC4 yesterday and everything was fine - up to a point. I had shoes and socks on the character and the feet with socks were out of the shoes when the import finished, so I'm not sure what went wrong there - I need to hunt down a fix for that. Also, my characters shirt looked like it had been painted on him, not beeing worn, like a shirt would - again I have to work out fixes - there are probably ones I had with CC3 but i just can't remember, so I'll have to go back and refresh my memory.
But otherwise everything, including clothing, eyes and hair looked good. I imported into iClone 8 and had my character walking around a forest set I built pretty quickly, with HDR - well, I was pretty happy with the very basic results, considering my effort input was minimal.
The big difference I notice between Daz and Reallusion is the price of the software and anything you might want to add. Even a package of just plain old expressions for CC4 is around US$100, so a big jump up from Daz' prices, especially if you pick things up here on the many sales here!
I have achieved some (very moderate) level of success with CC3 and iClone 7, so maybe my investment will inspire me to plunge forward with iClone 8. Of course, all those features videos are done by people who actually know what they are doing, something that I am sadly lacking in. But if it is as easy to do animations in iClone 8 as they are claiming, I should be putting Pixar in the shade by oh, next week.
It's easy to export as Fbx and in CC4 as cc3+
import , done .
At least that's how I did it with the G3F.
You just have to load a T_Pose that comes with CC4.
Those prices are indeed prohibitive and I realised that as soon as I started digging into what's available. Seems like an application suite for professionals or a hobby for the wealthy which, unfortunately, is not me. I have trouble keeping up with DAZ prices so I only buy at big discounts.
I'm a long time user of iClone. The new versions have many teething problems and they already put out a massive fix for both programs. The new features are overkill for my needs and I will probably pass on the new versions. But one thing is for sure. I can put together a scene in iClone within minutes once I know where I'm going. The only problem is getting the content organized for swift retrieval. Setting up your own sysyem is vital to get any work done.
yep, same here. Unfortunately many in this and other 3D and game communities use pirated versions unless you are in school and have access to academic versions.
Thankfully there are decent alternatives to Pro-level software at reasonable prices or actually free. DAZ Studio itself is an example. Blender has some good sculpting tools for free so does it make sense for a hobbyist to re-mortgage her home to pay for ZBrush? Affinity photo (or Gimp) are pretty good alternatives to Photoshop. DaVinci Resolve has a free version that is up there with Adobe Premiere. I have paid for software in the past and still ended up using a free alternative. Examples would be Poser (never got going and quickly returned to DAZ Studio) and Sony Vegas (video editor), the latter being outclassed by the free version of DaVinci Resolve IMHO.
I do like the DaVinci way of offering a free version to non-professionals which has 90% of the features available in the Pro version. That way, people just starting out can get used to it and if they graduate to being professionals they will probably stay with what they know and pay for the pro version which has those extras the professionals require and demand. Even the Pro version is a reasonable price compared to the Adobe alternative. DAZ could go a similar route with pro-level animation and physics in a paid-for version while still offering the free version like we have at the moment. I'd pay, say, $100 - $150 to have all that in one application but I can't afford the Reallusion prices.
For hobbiests, as a iclone user I would never recommend Iclone 8. I like the software but it is too expensive. I would suggest bitting the bullet and learning Blender it takes more effort to do things in Blender but it is FREE!!!!! The Daz bridge works good and we have huge amount of content ready to use. If you want easy animation there is no such thing. Take some online courses and learn how to animate in Blender. ~~my 2 cents
Very true. A lot of the time I have to come up with camera angles that downplay the distortions. My next series of male and female action heros will come from G8. They're easy enough to get into iClone.
I am using Blender for other things - mainly morphs and fixing clothing problems. So many clothes are fine when fitted to the standard base G8 but get messed up as soon as a character is dialled-in. So I spend a lot of time sending stuff over to Blender to fix. I'd like to get into making props but am a bit scared of texturing and UV maps. I previously used the Blender video editor too but DaVinci Resolve is a better option for me now (and also free). Animation is a pain to attempt in DAZ Studio and I have bought the often-recommender animation tutorial called "Alive". However, my animations so far have been limited to quick loops lasting a couple of seconds so I have not ventured into the more complicated areas yet. I do intend to but I would still prefer to do everything on one application although I realise that is so very unlikely to happen.
looks like I will be staying on iC6 for some time yet
I guess there isn't a Studio to iClone bridge because CC3 and now CC4 handles Daz character input pretty well, with the Transformer option. Of course, with CC3, you had to spend further money to get the 'pipeline' version to get Transformer, although now with CC4, Transformer is included - as it probably should be, given the price!
With Transformer, it is pretty straightforward and you have the choice of having the character get a CC skin or keep their skin from Daz. I tried a Daz figure with his scruffy unshaved look (for want of a better description) already applied, out of Studio and into CC4 and I was actaully pretty impressed how good it looked, even in closeup.
But yes, using the included T-pose seems to be the key to import success. Also understanding the tools to use in CC for fixing any problems with skin and clothes etc. They can be a bit daunting, but I find Mike Kelley's helpful videos on YouTube are really good for getting to the nitty-gritty of doing stuff in CC and iClone - he tends to say "Don't pay any attention to what Reallusion says, do it this way..." and bingo it just works!
Oh dear! It seems there is a major problems getting Daz characters into CC4.
I had well, fun isn't quite the right word, getting Daz characters and accessories across last night into CC4 and it is a complete mess! Clothes ripped inside bodies like a horror movie, glasses located between the ankles (even though they are actually parented to the characters head!), hair floating off somewhere behind the character, nowhere near their head... bracelets and watches and necklaces floating in outer space, feet out of shoes and unable to make them fit back in again... In all, a horrible, horrible mess!!!
It appears that the Transformer tool is completely broken in CC4, which I had confirmed today - but fortunately there is a workaround until they fix it (hopefully they will do this soon).
The workaround is to go back and use good ol' CC3, and use Transformer from there ,which did work pretty well for most characters, and then from CC3 and into iClone 8.
So don't delete that old software version just yet!
When I bought Iclone 8, I just notice something that they have added! When you click to "Buy" and "Checkout" after that, you will see 3 options to choose from!
1. PayPal as usually!
2. Credit Card as usually!
But here gets more interesting.
3. DA points, so in another word you can buy these Software with DA points! So you can add more and more until you are ready to buy it! They have added this features if you can't afford!
The most unfortunate thing is between the two there is an (almost) perfect application but having to use both creates problems and adds unnecessary times to whatever project you're working on. DAZ's G8 is far superior to the CC4 models in both textures and deformations from what I've seen. But iClone's posing/anim toolset and physics toolset is obviously better than DAZ's. On top of that you get a cleaner UI in iClone, hotkeys that actually make sense, and better performance as well. Overall iClone seems to have a tool advantage vs DAZ, and just more refined in general with this ver. 8 release. But that's reflected in the price and the investment is no small penny by a long shot. Still for all that money there are pitfalls in iClone that makes me stay away (this was the case with iClone 7, I haven't been able to test iClone 8 yet). But the saving grace for iClone is how much better it works with other programs and they advertise this heavily. Using the DAZ to Maya bridge often feels like a shot in the dark in whether or not my posing will work and theres a bunch of restrictions you have to figure out that weren't spelled out in any of the videos on youtube. Also still can't export any poses from DAZ to Maya using the bridge which absolutely sucks.
Overall, if you're just doing still shots, I think the limitations of DAZ are still preferable for the end product you get. But for animation? Daz is almost unusable in that regard and you're better off dealing with anything else and any other workflow to get around animating in DAZ. Adding any other program to the DAZ workflow feels so awkward and forced, especially if the end goal is to still be in DAZ for a final render. Everytime a project of mine calls to do something that DAZ isn't especially suited towards, I know I'm in for a time of just jury rigging it together in some way.
As an aside, why does DAZ not have proper material export? What is the point of using Nvidia's MDL if it doesn't work natively at all with other MDL based applications? The best you can really get from an export is diffuse maps and from there it's a mountain of work getting the rest of the maps praying to God whatever you're setting up in can support the rest of the maps. So it's like, yeah heres this Bridge tool, but it's only going to work best if you end up back in DAZ studio again. Not even support for Nvidia's Omniverse, let alone something like V-ray.
The more that other tools like iClone advance, the more it seems obvious that DAZ needs quite the re-write. I hope this is what's taking the real DAZ Studio 5 so long, because everyday it grows more antiquated. Bad viewport performance. Camera controls feel clunky compared to every other application. UI is just... Bad all around. Lack of actual direct geo manipulation tools. So many pose tools that try to make up for the lack of actual IK. Terrible default hotkeys. No MDL export. Dforce is slow. iRay is starting to become noticeably unoptimized (doesn't even use more than 15% of my 3090 while my render just crawls). Unintuitive (and honestly overall bad) skinning and rigging tools.
But the Genesis 8 figures are awesome, and the program is free. This, combined with the discounts and sheer amount overall of content in the store has this program skating by for now and honestly hopefully for the foreseeable future too. But for how long? Do you think DAZ can withstand something like another big iClone release with it's current update trend? Or even more pressing, the ever advancing ecosystem of Blender.
DAZ, all I hope is you that guys recognize the current shortfalls of the program and have plans to remediate some of them sooner rather than later.
@danrita13 I echo your thoughts, every single one.
At some point in the past, DAZ was capable of competing with the other 3D apps out there, but that simply does not seem to be the case any longer. They can't continue to be an island when the rest of the industry is innovating, and more importantly, sharing those innovations in an interoperable space.
Blender models, animates, and renders much, much better than anything DAZ can offer. MD does cloth much, much better than anything DAZ can offer. Houdini does, god, things that I haven't even thought of yet but include particles, cloth, pyro, smoke, fluids, and destruction much, much better than anything DAZ can offer. And they can all talk to each other.
I think DAZ is already a ghetto of low ambitions, and if DAZ does that, there's probably a market for it. But it's not a viable long term strategy because the state of the art of what can be done with a single click is always raising as well, and even those types of users are bound to look at art they see elsewhere and come to the conclusion that DAZ's functionality is inferior and the overall user experience is relatively unsatisfactory.
True, those damned (blessed?) PAs of theirs keep me coming back for more, but it sure would be nice to give DAZ my money and just skip DAZ Studio altogether.
They're three entirely different workflows, though, and Houdini in particular has a very singular interface and workflow. The average DS user could learn one of those three programs to some level of satisfaction, but either could not or does not want to become sufficiently good at all three programs (or whatever others) to do the kind of things that you, I or someone like wolf359 does. The bulk of DS users like using DS for what DS is good at, and just want it to be better, and that's perfectly valid.
I want ALL the CC4 toon stuff in Daz Studio ideally.
I thought seriously about investing in CC4 and all the toon stuff until I started doing the financials. Wow howdy expensive.
back to DS kitbashing and dial spinning.
Sure, I agree with all of your fair, thoughtful points. But I of course argue from my own context, point of view, and self interest. I don't want DS to be better for someone else, particularly not when its at my expense in a zero-sum game; I want it to be better for me.