"Other" Software Discussions
JoeMamma2000
Posts: 2,615
I'm a bit confused on how the community here views discussions of "other", non-Carrara software. This is an honest question, with no other intent but to comply with the forum intent on those discussions.
Now I've seen a lot of discussion of other software here over the years. Most recently, Wendy and others mention and discuss iClone (in a fairly positive light) on a regular basis. Others discuss and compare DAZ Studio with Carrara. And of course Poser is mentioned fairly regularly. Hex is also mentioned, as well as other software I'm probably missing. Carrara plugins, while technically not Carrara/DAZ software, are discussed in depth and in great detail on a regular basis, in a very positive light. And of course 3rd party renderers are a regular discussion topic and seem to be extremely popular and viewed very positively.
Oh yeah, Blender is also mentioned, though it seems like the reaction to any mention of Blender is often negative, and results in responses like "well if you don't like Carrara, don't use it" or "this is a Carrara forum, why discuss other software".
So I'm a bit confused. Yes, there's no question that this is a Carrara forum. But does that mean that the community doesn't want any discussion of any other software? Or maybe it's anything that might be viewed as negative towards Carrara? Although negative discussions of Carrara (most recently, incompatibility of recent G3/V7/whatever offerings) seem to be desired and allowed in some cases. And since the very popular 3rd party renderers are so often discussed in a positive light, even though they are in "do it much better than Carrara's limited render options" category, I'm again confused on what the forum members see as "okay to discuss".
I don't think there is a TOS mention of what's fair game in terms of "other" software discussions, so I guess I'm asking for a general consensus about what forum members don't like to see, so I won't venture into areas that might upset someone. If that's possible... :) :)
Thanks.
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Comments
interesting question Joe.
Carrara community at the moment is wondering what is happening re further development of Carrara.
It follows that we don't really need to be told 'oh Carrara is old hat - another program can do all these things, and is much better, therefore Carrara is worthless/behind the times etc.
But I think that discusions of other software as an addition or 'plug-in' to Carrara is a wonderful idea.
After all poser, for example has a working cloth sim.
Blender has that amazing stitch 'plug-in'.
Anim8or has simple tool set that makes learning to model easy.
But it's best to remember that, after all, we are here in the Carrara forum, because we use Carrara.
I guess that's one of my great confusions....
Why people translate discussions of other software that can do stuff better than Carrara as being told that "Carrara is worthless..."
Why do people tend to assume criticism and negativity, instead of taking it as a positive discussion of "hey, Carrara is good for some stuff, but is kinda weak in this area, so it's awesome to discuss other ways to get stuff done that might be better".
The assumed negativity has always puzzled me. If you're trying to render a cool, lifelike fire, and your software isn't that great at fire sims, then why is it bad to discuss some other software that does awesome fire sims? Why always the "don't attack my software" attitude?
But hey, if that's how everyone feels, then I'll try to understand and bow to their wishes. If I can... :) :)
oh there is 'implication' and there is 'emotive' and there is 'extrapolation', not to mention 'irony', 'facetiousness' and past 'historical' posts to work with.
don't forget that there is an 'etc' in that sentence you refer to.
There is also the cultural aspects and subtlies of a discussion. In Australia, if its is pouring with rain we might say 'nice day.'
If I were to say to you 'gooday mate' then I might be meaning to give you offense, or I might be meaning to give you a warm embrace.
For example a long line of smileys after a post might give most people offence.
So that is the difficulty we face :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) ;)
I dunno...with me it's simply "use the best, discard the rest"
I suppose when you have only the written word to judge by, people's emotions and backgrounds come into play to determine how they'll receive things...positive or negative. Unfortunately, it seems emotions tend to override issues, and it's more about the poster than the issue.
Still doesn't answer my question though...
sorry Joe. I thought the relevant question was
I answered you in my first post in the thread.
I'll leave you there Joe. The sun's shining here, I had a great surf, a few barrels, and I am working up a few big renders for a show coming up, and I need to do some studio time as well. Here's one of my paintings as evidence. Have a great day :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) Cheers.
PS I didn't use Carrara for this image.... I used a 20 cent brush which I love. But I won't tell you how wonderfully better it is than carrara because, after all, this is the Carrara forum.....;)
RE: criticism and negativity
My experience has been that there can be a confusion between the topic (for example splats) and the people (for example people who may or may not use splats).
For example, here are two different ways to start a sentence.
1) Most Carrara users...
2) A feature (for example splats) can be used for...
My experience has been that when I object to generalizations about Carrara users (like sentence 1), as distinguished from a discussion of how to use a specific feature (like sentence 2), someone might mistake my objection to the generalization about Carrara users for an objection to a discussion of features of Carrara, or lack thereof.
So, to sum up - blanket (i.e. generalized) criticisms of other users are expressly prohibited by the TOS. If the topic is splats, explain how splats are used, or can be used, or can't be used, or ask questions about how people have been using them,... Great stuff.
Don't make a generalization about Carrara users, such as "Most Carrara users would be surprised to know that splats..." or "Most Carrara users are not interested in how splats..." You don't know me. You haven't surveyed me. Its obvious you have paid no attention to just how eclectic my interests are. But more importantly, a generalization about me and people like me (Carrara users) is not necessary to explain how to use some feature in Carrara (such as splats), or how to use some feature in another program to prep it for being imported to Carrara.
Bottom line - repeated blanket criticisms of other forum participants will prompt me to occasionally point out a violation or two to the moderators. It happens too often to report them all.
The mistake would be to think that the correction would be to then reply "Oh, sorry, my mistake, most people here are interested in how splats...." The correct thing is to NOT make a blanket generalization about Carrara users. Subsequently converting the negative generalization about Carrara users to a positive one is to miss the point.
Thus, I will occasionally quote a post and reply with a simple sentence.
"Please make your point without making generalizations about Carrara users."
Thanks for the comments, but I think we're straying far from the thread topic.
Any other comments that might help define what software topics are acceptable?
Thanks.
RE: scope of discussion - from the forum description page
In addition, there are discussion forums at Renderosity, blender.org, and other places.
So personally, I would expect threads on the Carrara forum to have a nexus to Carrara. Daz does provide two additional places that are purposefully more general. If a topic is about something Carrara is not designed to do, such as editing in Photoshop, the topic would seem to me to be a better fit on the Art Studio forum or the Commons forum. Those areas are designed to be general. Starting a thread on the Carrara forum about how Carrara doesn't even have the magic wand selecter tool that Photoshop has seems out of place. A person starting such a thread really wants to have a more general discussion of art techniques not limited to Carrara. Great! All for such discussions. But to me such a thread would seem better placed where more people who use image editors like Photoshop might participate, not just Carrara users. Non-Carrara users might have great insights. Suggesting that the thread belongs where a broader range of people can participate does not indicate lack of interest in the topic.
I personally visit other forums on Daz, and at R'osity and elsewhere. As the description of the Carrara forum indicates, I come to this particular forum to discuss features and news related to Carrara.
EDIT: subject to Headwax's point about using another software as a plugin for Carrara. EG., a tutorial on using Photoshop to make a flat foundation area for a building to be placed on a heightmap to be used in a Carrara landscape scene seems like it meets the "nexus to Carrara" test in my opinion.
Thanks for the comments.
So then would you encourage those who discuss, say, iClone in this forum to stop those discussions? Or those who discuss Poser, or Hex, or DAZ Studio, or Marvelous Designer, or export methods to other apps?
And are you saying that discussing software that might do something better than Carrara, or makes up for a Carrara weakness, is not pertinent and appropriate for the Carrara forum?
I'm just trying to understand.
Thanks.
Sorry, we were posting at the same time. You didn't see the edit.
So if someone is using Carrara as part of a workflow with Iclone, and they are here discussing Carrara's place in that workflow, - eg. how to rig a figure in Carrara for export to Iclone - it seems to meet the nexus test - in my opinion.
BTW, for what it's worth, and as a very long time contributor to this forum....
For me, personally, I don't care what is discussed here. If I'm not interested in a thread, I don't read it. Like DAZ sale items. :) :) :)
And if someone posts something about some cool new software that blows the shorts off Carrara in, say, the cloth department, I'm all ears. That's how I first learned about Marvelous Designer, so I'm very appreciative of that info.
It's all good, IMO.
Similarly, I am not an absolutist. Going off topic occasionally can build a sense of community. But the ratio of Carrara-related discussion to non-Carrara should favor Carrara-related. Similarly, the ratio of answering an OP's question to using the OP's question as a point-of-departure for a rant about the imperfections of Daz should favor answering the OP's question. Not absolute - but people coming to the Carrara forum should be greeted with a preponderance of Carrara-related threads, and OPs with questions should get a preponderance of answers in reply.
BTW - Speaking of off topic, I suggest everyone check out the Christmas tree lights in Austin near the original Amy's Ice Cream. Amazing. Keep Austin weird!
Joe.
This is a Carrara Discussion forum .
The community members here are free to discus anything to do with Carrara,. EG learning to use it, and practical usage, help with problems etc, etc.
As you'll find with any "Discussion group" the subject or issue raised can develop into a different discussion about the usde of other software.or additional plugins for Carrara, to expand it's abilities.
Additional ""software" which Carrara can work with,. Such as Poser, Z-Brush, or external Render engines which have plugi-ns for Carrara,
or third party plug-ins which are made for Carrara,. or Video editing applications which can be used with Carrara.
We're not Blind or stupid here, We're open minded adults who live and work in the real world,.. and we understand that there are many different software and hardware products available and sometimes the discussion turns to one about what new Software or Hardware choices a user could make etc..
I've never seen anyone reprimanded or cautioned by a Forum Moderator for simply mentioning any other Software or Hardware, and it['s use with Carrara.
So, generally,. I am concerned that you have some difficulty in understanding the type of "Subjects that would be discussed in the Carrara forum"
If a product works with Carrara,. is Made for use with Carrara, can be used with Carrara, then it would be "Fair game" as you say, to discuss that in this forum.
What do you feel you cannot discuss here ?,
Why do you feel a need to discuss that subject here ?
Well, here's just two quotes from two members in two very recent threads (including this one...)
"we don’t really need to be told ‘oh Carrara is old hat - another program can do all these things, and is much better, therefore Carrara is worthless/behind the times etc."
"I fail to see why some people are actually posting in this forum about what Carrara is lacking and what other programs can do that Carrara doesn’t, after all this is a Carrara Forum"
In both cases they are referencing a discussion of other free software that has many more up-to-date features than Carrara. One might think that type of discussion would be welcomed here, since that software provides an alternative for some nifty features that many Carrara users continually ask for, and Carrara lacks. But often those types of discussions seem to be met with some hostility.
I'm just trying to figure out if it's the personalities involved, as Mr. Headwax implied, or if there are some general guidelines on what discussion is appropriate.
Hi,
List of software that I use besides Carrara. I like to keep up with technology.
number one on my list is Modo. I will be upgrading to the very latest modo 901. It has really matured to a great level.
I also use Z-brush and the Adobe Creative Cloud.
DAZ 3D Forum TOS bullet point #2
The 2nd part lays it out quite succinctly (emphasis mine)
That's fine, but if the posts contain reasoned discussions of software and features, then one would think that would be totally within the TOS. (emphasis mine) :) :)
If you say that software "A" is outdated, abandoned, or any similar negative blanket statement, and that Software "B" is "Better" etc,.
These are your own personal opinions,. which should not be confused with facts
Some people will share your opinion and agree with you,. some will not.
We are all free to use any software we choose.
For many years I used Autodesk products (Cad / 3DStudio / 3DMax )
today I use Carrara, Z-Brush , Poser, and many other 3D and 2D applications including Adobe Photoshop / After effects.
I also use other applications to create assets to use in 2D and 3D, such as Endorphin, Xara Designer, Octane Render,.Element 3D, etc..
I'm not unaware of Blander, and it's been shown to have good abilities,. but the "usability and learning curve" has been an issue for new users since day one,. some people love it, some don't,.. that's a fact, not an opinion.
Carrara has a really easy to use and learn UI, (for me , that's my personal experience and observation of others here)
It also still seems to be unique in the 3D marketplace, being the only full 3D software to allow the direct loading of Poser and Daz3D figures and content, which again, makes it an easier starting and learning tool.
Perhaps Daz3D's current lack of support for G3 in Carrara is another example of the different degree of development required to incorporate the new technology being developed, into older software products such as Carrara or Bryce,
That's speculation on my part,..
Perhaps it's a wake-up call to Carrara users, and it's time for a Carrara developed figure.
Perhaps it's nothing more than another example of ...."Daz'...Soon"
Speculation can continue ad-infinitum....
If G3 isn't ever supported in Carrara,. that's not really my loss,. it'll be a financial saving on content which I won't be purchasing.
All previous Daz3D figures, Poser models, Props, Scenes etc can all be used in Carrara as long as I have a Computer capable of running it, and a reliable electricity supply.
There are also easy to use applications which can be used to "generate" a basic 3D human model. which could be rigged and textured in Carrara,.
As a full featured 3D application , Carrara has the tools needed to model, rig, texture, animate and render.
It does not have an absolute "need" for "content", unlike Poser or Daz3D Studio, and in some ways, it could be argued that by having Daz3D as the "owners" of Carrara, this has limited the users "need" to build their own Carrara content,,. since we all understand that "purchasing" a product, is much easier than "building" your own.
If Carrara was sold elsewhere, then perhaps users would be unaware of the availability of "off the shelf" content, and would be creating scenes and models using Carrara. and perhaps sharing those assets freely with other users.
You also need a reliable electricity supply for the ELECTRIC DISCIPLINE CHAIR. Currently free if you buy another product in the Daz store, it is to be used on obnoxious people who get on your nerves.
..................... I want a parilla for some with a wire basket for earthing the nuts and bolt
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrilla_(torture)
Hi folks, I hope my contribution will be seen as light-hearted.
When I drive a car that takes me from A to B, I don't really care that the guy in the car which just passed me has more comfortable seats, better acceleration, expensive sound system, etc.
When it comes to software, my attitude isn't too different. I have no experience of what I'll call the 'industry' but I used to enjoy reading articles in 3D graphics magazines. I used to wonder at the accounts people gave of the 'making of' of the images featured: "I'm twenty years old from a small village in (whichever country with no silicon valley or film industry) and I first began using Maya four years ago. This image took me three weeks in my spare time and I used Max, Zbrush, 3Dcoat for retopology, some Mental renderer or other and Photoshop for final re-touching.'
And I think many things from reading that.
Such as 'Wow, it must be good to have such cutting-edge software and a system to run it on. The local shops must be well-stocked.'
Or 'This guy must have a brain the size of Jupiter - I wonder how he learned to do all this stuff? '
Also 'With that skill-set this guy will be highly-employable in the industry. Good for him, I wish this industry had been around in this form (University degree courses, etc.) when I was still making career choices'
Then I might wonder - with my layman's understanding of the industry - whether his skill-set will really matter to the clients who pay his employers? Or do film Directors and advertising people just demand the best end-results possible? Most probably yes and yes again to the second question but not the first. Hence the need for anyone working in the industry to learn to use the best tools that money can buy.
But for the guy who started off with a creative vision of his own will it be really satisfying to work long hours always with the pressure of deadlines, bringing to life the ideas of others? Maybe one day all the fun AND sense of artistic achievement will be gone. Who would be capable of such full-time work and still have motivation for private projects?
At the end of the day the Producers, Directors and Film Stars will get all the acclaim. Meanwhile, the guy with all those skills joins the legions of others whose names might roll up on the credits list as people are leaving the theatre. The work he did was probably only a contribution to something shared among others because some specialist did the lighting, someone else the rigging and so on. Those specialists need the best tools in existence.
But back to the humble reality of my own situation. I don't mind driving my modest car. It gets me from A to B.
I'm as happy with Carrara as a child who has been given a boxed train-set. When he opens the box he sees: a train, some curved tracks, some straight tracks a little platform and a wee man with a flag. Everything needed to get started building that railway layout!
But that's a poor analogy: Carrara has many superb features, even though better ones are available in other software. Those better features are probably an absolute MUST for people working in the 'Industry' but many of us don't and won't ever really need the very best available.
I read your post, and this part made me think. My car is actually older than the main software I use, but not by much and I am still happy with both, and have fun with both.
As the car is a Toyota Carina E (1994 vintage) and I think everyone knows which is my main software so you can see that both were cutting edge technology when they first came out and both have stood the test of time. Carrara may not be quite so long in the tooth in the format it is now, but still it was ahead of it's time when it was first released, has also stood the test of time and is still very viable today.
Thanks for the input.
I'm not sure those really address my question directly, but let me take a shot at summarizing what input I have received so far. I could be wrong, but this is just the sense I get. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Perhaps the core of the issue is this: "I take it as a personal attack if you say anything negative about my software, especially if someone says there's something "better" out there, and my software is lacking in comparison".
It seems to be irrelevant if the discussion is a rational/reasoned comparison of Carrara vs other software, and discussions like that are not taken as a positive thing. People don't respond with "hey, Carrara is kinda weak in this area, and there's some other software out there that does it much better, I'm happy to hear I have another option for that feature".
I'm still not sure why folks are so positive about using plugins to make up for a Carrara weakness (like a 3rd party unbiased renderer and stuff like that). For some reason discussions like that aren't taken as negative. Maybe because plugins can still be regarded as "my software" or something.
Still scratching my head on this one... :)
Yes, when I started reading about 3D software, Bryce and maybe Poser 3 or 4 were being used to create amazing works.
Bryce was highly desirable and I do like it very much in spite of not using it so often. It was used to create amazing images for the 'Myst' series of games, I believe?
As a case in point, I don't think artists starting out in 3D today would expect to use it in the 'Industry'. Some individuals could perhaps get commissions using it (and for all I know there may be many who do).
In those days gone by, new releases of Carrara were advertised in the 3D magazines. Beautiful art works were used. There was a cut-down 'lite' or 'essentials' version too.
In one of the books I bought on general animation, a project called 'Rust Boy' was being held up as an inspiration for what an individual could do alone with the modern equipment of those days. He used Infini-D and Carrara.
That was the first I ever heard of Carrara and I started wanting it then.
(Down in the Hexagon forum there's talk of a rendering plugin being developed by an individual for Hexagon and Bryce).
While it's somewhat interesting to hear others' experiences and histories with 3D software in general, again, I think we're veering WAY off topic.
I'm trying to develop an understanding of what is considered acceptable discussion in terms of other, non-Carrara software.
Hi Joe,
My last post above was a reply to Chohole then I saw yours.
Regarding the quote above, I can only speak for myself. For me there's a tendency to read about the latest new thing for sale and to want it. Reallusion tempts me every day with this or that new thing for iclone. My monitor is tiny and fifteen years old. I look at other people's screen shots and want a bigger monitor.
Someone says Modo or Cinema 4D is wonderful and I want them but shrink back on price alone (plus system requirements and learning curve). Zbrush is ubiquitous and it or Mudbox is de rigeur for professionals. But I'm happy to make do with Sculptris and 3D Coat and leave it at that.
At some point I just want to stop desiring more and see if I can wring out something artistic using what I already have.
Someone at another, higher level of expertise or ambition or someone making a living using Carrara might experience far more frustration and come up every day against the limitations of the program compared to other software. Such people will surely welcome any news of better software within their grasp. But IF remarks about Carrara COME ACROSS as disparaging of the software, perhaps some people could take it to be dismissive of what they do. Just as if I was printing with a dot-matrix printer and someone told me that it belongs with the dinosaurs I could feel that my work was being judged as worthless on that account.
Anyway, I'm rambling on and on - the truth is that I get disheartened sometimes if I get told that Carrara is 'past it' or dead and gone and I don't know why because it's there for me to use just as before.
(Joe, I'm not accusing you of saying either of the above)
I think the three factors of learning curve, system requirements and cost weighed up against NEED prevent me from looking elsewhere. The learning curve is the sole factor for Blender.
No, as I said, I don't take it as a personal attack if you say something negative about Carrara. As I have said in other threads, and in this thread, I take it as a personal attack when you make generalizations about Carrara users - because I am one. Thus, an attack upon my person. See? Not when you say something negative about Carrara.
A) An attack on persons = "Most people here..."
B) A rational critique of software = "This feature does X. To use this feature in Carrara, you have to do M then N then O. This is two steps more than in whatever."
We have discussions in the category of B all the time.
- eg. comparing Bryce heightmap editor to Carrara's
- eg. comparing Hexagon vertex modeler to Carrara's
- eg. comparing Poser dynamic cloth or Marvelous Designer to Carrara softbody physics
Joe, we cross-posted again. I hope my last outpouring was more on topic.
All I can add is that I don't mind hearing about the capabilities of other software.
In the Carrara forum, I try not to discuss other programs too much unless I might be able to help someone considering spending a lot of money on Iclone, for example.
I don't mind hearing about how other software was used along with Carrara and the more I learn about Carrara, the more I might want to hear about other rendering software and so on.
Yes, I understand your point about unreasoned criticisms of forum members. The TOS agrees with you, and so do I.
The difficulty I have is when the discussion is REASONED, and not seen or intended to be a CRITICISM.
You mentioned the "splats" discussion, where I assumed (with a great deal of justification and reason) that most members of this forum do not have direct experience in producing professional VFX for a public audience, and therefore might not be aware of the detailed procedures used in those productions.
So, unfortunately, I started my comment off with something like "Most people here might be amazed..." or something like that. In no way whatsoever did I expect that would be taken as a criticism, since it was a rational supposition that is, if everyone here made an objective assessment of their background and experience, is a fact. At least for a majority of forum members. That's not a bad thing. If someone hasn't worked in a certain profession, why be offended when someone assumes you haven't worked and had experience in that profession?
So a rational supposition, that is actually a fact for a large portion (or majority, or even ALL members), somehow is taken as a criticism. Like when forum members here are referred to with the generality of "hobbyists". Factual, but offensive. And when Carrara is shown, through reasoned and detailed discussion, to be outdated and way behind the times. Factual, but apparently offensive.
I think that's the core of my confusion. How can one expect that facts would be taken as criticism?
This what you could have written.
Splats are a common and useful tool for VFX professionals. Cards, billboards, and matted images on a plane are used for everything from characters to flames to environments and on and on, although the “always point at the camera” part isn’t quite as common.
The assumptions about Carrara users add nothing. No big deal. But it does illustrate how one can gratuitously make generalizations about forum participants even when the generalization adds nothing to the technical point being made.
Unfortunately, when brought to your attention, you attribute the response to a defense of Carrara as a software program instead of an objection to the generalization about users.