Looking For Users Experienced With My iRadiance HDRIs

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Comments

  • KaribouKaribou Posts: 1,325
     I got tired of dying a little inside every time someone on the forum said how do I use this no I did not read/watch the docs (which still happens, there was a thread like this as recently as Beautiful Skin Iray).

    Good point.  I frequently see this in the forums and I'm not even a PA.  There seems to be a trickle-down effect, lol. 10% of people read the instructions and then field questions for the other 90% who wind up here looking lost and confused.  (I shall refrain from stating which part of that equation I usually inhabit!) By the way, SickleYield -- your dA tutorials are awesome.  I cannot tell you how much I've learned from them!

  • SickleYieldSickleYield Posts: 7,634

    Thank you! :)

  • Cris PalominoCris Palomino Posts: 11,315

    Mesh Lights.

     I normally set my scene and then add lights, so are you saying it should be the other way?  Or is it a matter of you can do either?  

    When I first started using the presets, sometime the mesh lights were visible in the scene.  I thought I could just not render them and was told they will always render and that I just had to move them out of the camera's line of sight.  That tidbit, if correct, would be something users may need to know.​

    You can set your scene up and load the lights in any order that you wish, in general I do it the same way you do by putting my surroundings together first then lighting accordingly.

    Usually meshlights will always show in the render.  That's just how Iray works, 3Delight had a lot of tools to change individual settings like "visible in render" or "cast shadows" per object that Iray lacks because of it's dependence on physical accuracy.  However in the case of mesh lights you can turn their opacity down very low and they will still cast lighting while being essentially invisible.  Change your opacity value to 0.00001 or lower and test it out, you may need to change your brightness settings but it should keep the mesh light's geometry from casting shadows or showing up in your render.

    In general, I would love to know more about what settings affect the HDRI which in turn affects the render.  Things such as the numerical settings for Environement Intensity and Map and what they do.  I keep hearing about tone mapping.  I don't know which things would be suitable for info in reference to the HDRIs and/or mesh lights.

    The values for Environment Intensity will just increase the brightness of the HDRI, both as a background and as lighting.  Using this you can increase the intensity of it's lighting in relation to other lights in your scene. When thinking about photography, if your camera is set at the proper exposure for an indoor shot everything outside will be completely blown out in relation.  So if you are doing an indoor scene that's fully lit yet there is a window showing the outdoors, you could increase this value to properly expose the background and get the correct amount of lighting coming in through the glass.

    Tone mapping isn't restricted to HDRI rendering.  It's there as a set of tools to affect the brightness range of your render similar to the way a "Curves" effect in Photoshop works.  You can adjust "Burn Highlights" to make the brightest parts either brighter or duller, changing "Crush Blacks" will make the darker portions darker or lighter.  Gamma will affect the middle range of levels in your image and change the overall contrast, while Exposure settings will change the overall brightness.  Film ISO, F/Stop, Shutter Speed and cm^2 Factor are all Photography terms that affect exposure.  In Photography they did other things along with affecting exposure (like F/Stop affecting depth of field and Film ISO adjusting light intake at the sacrifice of noise or grain), but in the render settings they will all just affect Exposure.

    Thank you so much for taking the time to explain these things, DT.  This information is very good to know.  I have really loved working with a combination of your Studio HDRIs and the mesh lights.  The more I use them, the clearer their use becomes to me.  Additionally understanding these other components, and other you have explained in this thread, have really served to widen my understanding of Iray.  :)

  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,223

    I think it is important to hold your customer's hand a bit sometimes, by writing a good readme, if you want repeat customers. I love DimensionTheory's HDR Pro set products, in part because there was adequate documentation in the beginning to tell me how to use it. Dumor3D has taken time to write a fantastic readme for his Apocalyptic HDRI product that will help his customers get the most out of that product. That is the kind of readme that makes a user a loyal customer, eager to buy more from that PA. On the other hand, buying products that do not have useful readme files and hence become frustrating to use, deter repeat purchases from the PA.

    Dumor3D product: http://www.daz3d.com/apocalyptic-plant-outdoors-set-1-iray-hdris

    Dumor 3D readme: http://docs.daz3d.com/lib/exe/fetch.php/public/read_me/index/21981/21981_quick-start-guide-to-the-iray-dome-and-the-use-of-hdris.pdf

  • It's important for people to let me know what they need help with.  I mentioned earlier that I'm happy to help people with issues they let me know about, otherwise I'm basically taking a shot in the dark creating documentation.  With all the fully detailed documentation I've done in the past I've not noticed any drop in people asking for help, without it I haven't noticed a drop in sales.  People learn in different ways so providing information as text only will confuse some users while doing videos will bring people asking for written documentation, doing things that really help everyone takes much longer than you guys probably realize.  As Sickle mentioned it's also often the case that people ask for help without reading information provided, other times it's people asking for clarifications on the documentation.  In which case it's better for people to skip the middle ground and just ask me.

    People who need any sort of help should be contacting me directly or asking DAZ (who in turn will contact me).  This gives me the ability to help individuals the way they need or want to be helped rather than trying to blanket possible issues with information I think people may possibly need, and mitigates any potential I have wasting my time with information users don't care about.  Posting it in the forums is a good way to ask for help from other users but I likely won't see it considering the amount of communication that goes on here.  If I don't see someone asking for help it means that I don't see any issues people may be having, so for any future documentation I do provide I have less basis to go on.  Coming to me with issues tells me what people need help with, it gives me the information I need to better help everyone.  With as few messages as I get asking for help (not one person has contacted me asking for help with my mesh lights or HDRIs) I'm led to believe people don't need it.  I'm not given much reason to think otherwise.

    There's a TED Talk which nicely covers the sort of situation I find myself in and my reasoning here...
     

    Video:
    http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce

    Written Overview Of The Video:
    http://contentmarketinginstitute.com/2011/03/content-marketing-diversification/
     

    It talks about there being no perfect answer for all customers, how there is no perfect way to provide anything to a large group of people and that things need to be provided a number of ways (usually three is enough) to make them happy.  In the talk he uses Coke and spaghetti sauce as examples.  The reason there are so many types of Coke and spaghetti sauce is because of this, some people prefer one while others like another kind.  I may like my sauce chunky while you like yours spicy, I may like plain text documentation while you like still image illustrated examples and someone else may like full video tutorials with speech.  When I provide one I will get users asking for the others.  Big time manufacturers have the ability to provide enough options to make everyone happy but I don't.  This turns things into a situation like my elementary teacher used to tell me where I feel like "if I can't bring enough candy for everyone I shouldn't bring any".

    Individuals coming to me asking for help makes it MUCH easier for me to give them the type of sauce they want.  Rather than providing full text descriptions, still illustrated examples AND video tutorials complete with voice for every single needed topic I can provide the one type of information that person needs for that one issue.  If someone else needs the same information the same way I can forward it to them, if they need the same information a different way I will only need to revise it at that time.  Coming to me is literally the best way for both of us to provide and receive education.

  • ToborTobor Posts: 2,300
    edited August 2015

    TD, I think you, and other vendors who hold this belief, fail to recognize the social engineering potential a good how-to can provide in earning new customers, and keeping old ones. Merely tracking your sales is meaningless; how many sales might you have gotten if you proactively used the how-tos as a marketing tool? You'll never know.

    Consider: The guy who does the GenX packages makes his documentation available on his Web site. I can say unequivocally it helps sell his product. I specifically bought some because he had the manuals available as a preview. I understand his are the type of products that require manuals, but the point is this: he's made them part of his marketing outreach. I'm proof he benefits from it.

    Consider: Earlier today someone posted a basic HDRi how-to from Dumor3D. I don't know if it was intended to be part of a product he sells, but it's in a thread that will get hundreds of views within the next few months. The topic comes up often enough I'm sure others will repost the link. And repost, and repost, and ... Don't think that'll help his sales? Think again. Users will see him as an authority, recognize his username, and hit that Add to Cart button.

    Consider: I said this before, and it's true -- no one ever lost cusomers because they provided good how-to. I realize it takes time to write this material. I've written some 65 books, including a few that took over a year. The trick is to find your groove. Write the how-to/readme/manual/whatever while you're doing the product -- it'll help in product development, too. It does not need to take a day to do. Even a half-day -- after all, you're already doing promos for the product page, right? Much of this material can be written in a few hours or less.

    Once you're done and the product is out, market that product using your how-to! This is such a no-brainer I'm surprised more vendors don't do it. If you can write a coherent sentence (and brother, you can -- you've shown your mastery at it) you can write about your product that explains it either specifically, or generically. For any of this to work, people know about your how-to. Don't be shy. Get a Web page or free blog, or use your DA gallery, and start sharing links.

    I only take my own time to write this because A) I like your products and the obvious care you put into them (though the mesh lights were a let down because there wasn't even a readme) and B) I can see that you're good at writing down your thoughts. It seems a waste not to turn this talent into another way to sell your product.

     

    Post edited by Tobor on
  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050

    I see perfectly where DT is coming from. I developed a simple Carrara scene that I give away for free at ShareCG. I created what I felt was a very nice user manual, geared to those that may be new to Carrara or certain other aspects of the scene. In all the feedback that I have received, both positive and negative, I have never had the documentation mentioned. I spent quite a lot of time on it- perhaps as much as a quarter of the time as it took to build the scene and the elements within it. It's kind of frustrating actually.

    I have another scene that I will probably give away, and there are some things that will likely need documentation, but I kind of hit a stone wall everytime I start to put it together because I don't know how much is over-kill, and how much isn't.

  • ToborTobor Posts: 2,300

    In all the feedback that I have received, both positive and negative, I have never had the documentation mentioned.

    You seldom will get feedback unless it's bad or missing. If the readme or doc is getting the job done, why would they mention it. They're concentrating on something else.

    Deciding what to talk about is the art. I know some authors who live in million dollar homes because they figured this part out. They know how to speak to the readers, and what questions they'll likely have. It's not easy, but the reward, when it's done right, is a richer experience for the user. And, hopefully, you'll get something out of that, too.

    One way to start this process is to write it down in unedited, freeform fashion. Often, the part you have the most trouble articulating, is the part that needs the most explanation. This assumes you're writing to the same level of user that you are. If you're an expert, writing to beginners, obvously that requires a lot more insight.

     

  • evilproducerevilproducer Posts: 9,050
    edited August 2015
    Tobor said:

    In all the feedback that I have received, both positive and negative, I have never had the documentation mentioned.

    You seldom will get feedback unless it's bad or missing. If the readme or doc is getting the job done, why would they mention it. They're concentrating on something else.

    Deciding what to talk about is the art. I know some authors who live in million dollar homes because they figured this part out. They know how to speak to the readers, and what questions they'll likely have. It's not easy, but the reward, when it's done right, is a richer experience for the user. And, hopefully, you'll get something out of that, too.

    One way to start this process is to write it down in unedited, freeform fashion. Often, the part you have the most trouble articulating, is the part that needs the most explanation. This assumes you're writing to the same level of user that you are. If you're an expert, writing to beginners, obvously that requires a lot more insight.

     

    The problem with me, is that I find it difficult to know where to stop, as one topic leads to another. Ironically, knowing when to stop or (stop being long winded) kind of prevents me from starting. ;-)

    The main point I'm trying to make, is that while I am not a vendor, I can empathize with DT's point of view very easily.

    Post edited by evilproducer on
  • Tobor, I fully take into account the things that you mention.  I've talked about documentation that I've done in the past, I've put weeks into documentation making it perfect as well as half hours typing up summaries and know the turnaround that it gives me.  I've released numerous products with that fully detailed documentation which I look at along with products that didn't release with the same sort of treatment.  My experience says that it's not always or even usually worth it.
     

    This is the documentation for my Nature Shader:
    http://3dimensiondigital.com/locker/NatureShader/NS-Documentation.pdf

    The projection shader (which I specifically contacted Slosh for help with asking him to act as a user unfamiliar with the product for Q&A):
    http://3dimensiondigital.com/locker/shadeslife/ShadesOfLife-ProjectionDoc.pdf

    This one is for my EYEris shader:
    http://3dimensiondigital.com/locker/projeyeris/EYErisShaderDocumentation.pdf

    Some of the numerous video tutorials I did for my ProSets and other products:
    https://www.youtube.com/embed/ZZ16Ebd4Rf0
    https://www.youtube.com/embed/Z8v8AaLYnqM
    https://www.youtube.com/embed/eFlaDa-TKKw


    Where applicable the documentation is provided directly in the product details on the store page so people can look it over before they purchase the product.  I have the statistics for my products and how much better products with no documentation do than products I've put the effort into, no one else has that information.  I'm not basing my views on speculation, it's all dependent on the results I've got over the years I've been doing this.  All of the information I have tells me that for the most part it is not worth my time to provide the sort of documentation I linked to.  The shaders I feel need it and I include it because they are new concepts, they rely on the explanation of new ideas to sell.  Things based on old concepts don't benefit much if at all from tuition.  Old concepts are what I need the users to tell me where they need the help with.  Again, I am always willing to help customers with questions they have as is DAZ when they are able.

    I've had this conversation on the forums in the past, which is why help was asked for on the Projection shader.  That was a situation where I discussed the struggle I have with creating documentation because of the same reasons I've mentioned here, not knowing what people need to know because of my lack of new user mindset.  Had I received more positive feedback on the documentation I would still be doing the sort of thing for every product I release.  Going through the EYEris shader thread out of 103 comments the documentation was only mentioned twice, and one of those times was asking for more detailed documentation (more detail in an already 13 page PDF).

    You're right that people usually only give feedback when they are displeased, that is part of the problem.  Not knowing if my documentation actually helped people gives me only sales numbers to rely on when determining their viability.  Without the positive customer feedback for doing what I'm lead to believe most people would like there's nothing telling me it's really of use, because as I said my sales numbers tell me it's not always or even usually worth it.  Lack of feedback is probably one of the bigger reasons I stopped providing such things.  Doing something that is asked of you without acknowledgement is tough in any situation.

  • TaozTaoz Posts: 9,938
    edited August 2015

    As for documentation... I used to include a lot of it.  Then I cut back on that because 90% of users wouldn't use it, it was wasted effort, and time is money - neither a video nor a .pdf manual is fast and easy to do properly.  Ultra Templates has docs, but they're shorter than those for previous, similar products for exactly this reason.  I got tired of dying a little inside every time someone on the forum said how do I use this no I did not read/watch the docs (which still happens, there was a thread like this as recently as Beautiful Skin Iray).

    I think it's often a matter of finding the docs, or even knowing if there are any. I installed a product the other day where the was an icon in the DS library that linked to some online documentation, I think that should be standard where a doc (online PDF or whatever) is included. Some also include icons with text instructions which often is enough.

    Post edited by Taoz on
  • JerifeJerife Posts: 272
    edited September 2015

    Hi DT!

    Glad to read you again.

    Thanks for your work, your products, videos and tuts. Thanks for all your investigation all this years. I've learned the most following your progress

    I am very sorry to have lost the access to all the wisdom you (and others) wrote in the old forums (Carrara ones mostly ;)  Found this thread after searching for your web 3dimensiondigital.com directly after seeing it on the products I purchased last week.

    Sorry not the new ones, sort of broke now *wink*, but those on sale:

    http://www.daz3d.com/daz-studio-iray-hdr-outdoor-environments

    http://www.daz3d.com/daz-studio-iray-hdr-interiors

    http://www.daz3d.com/iradiance-studio-hdris-for-iray

    http://www.daz3d.com/iradiance-hdr-mesh-lights-for-iray

     

    Last night I installed the Outdoor Enviroments, Maui preset, put DTML LightT from iRadianceHDRMeshlights on its default loading position; aka the floor, went to the surfaces room and with the light selected hit DTML MeshLight Color2D under the colours tab, put the Genesis Female 3 I was testing over the light, found your Camera 3 with DOF, selected the frame and expression and hit a render.

    Never had done an image with DOF in DS. I've been studying your parameters for that camera, done some test renders fiddling with them, trial and error at its best with no results. I am rusty. 

    What must I change to focus a bit more the face? I know this is not the feedback or question you are asking for but you've done that already and know it. *smile* 

    It seems Focal Distance can be the slider and it seem 163 focuses better than 179 starting from your original 173.2858 

    And related to readme's and manuals they are ok but I rather prefer PA time expend on products and believe in a good thread with no egos and good Q’s and A’s.

    Ah, the old forums and all the answers there were there! I hope all that is not lost forever

    Thanks again DT

     

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  • barbultbarbult Posts: 24,223
    edited September 2015

    Jerife, the links in your message point to your personal product library, rather than the store, so they don't work for other forum readers.

    Post edited by barbult on
  • JerifeJerife Posts: 272
    edited September 2015
    barbult said:

    Jerife, the links in your message point to your personal product library, rather than the store, so they don't work for other forum readers.

    Thanks

    old and rusty!

    They are correct now

    Post edited by Jerife on
  • Taozen said:
    Tobor said:
    Taozen said:

     

    Thanks for your suggestions, it's beginning to make sense now. Couldn't figure out why the lights acted weird when I changed their position but that must be because they were shining through the windows only. I've made the ceiling transparent now and turned down the light intensity and that made quite a difference, not least when it comes to rendering time. Here's how it looks after just 35 minutes rendering. The room is a bit too bright perhaps and the character appears a bit too dark but I guess that can be fixed with some adjustments.

    WOW what a difference!! Thanks for sharing your info and the results!!

    dbb

  • fastbike1fastbike1 Posts: 4,077
    edited September 2015

    @Jerife

    If the camera has DOF turned on, your sugject is outside the zone of focus. The easiest way to tell is to leave the DOF camera selected (in parameters tab), then goe to Perspective View. Pan around until you can see your subject and the camera "panes" that show the depth of field. The in focus area is between the planes. You can see depth of field change as you change the focal length, focal distance, f-stop etc.

    See attached. Her face and chest will be out of focus with these camera settings.

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  • mambanegramambanegra Posts: 580
    edited September 2015

    Hi Dimension Theory, I own the variety Pack Two, and I have replaced my default scene with one using the photography studio (I like the white color when trying out characters). I had to go back to the store to see if what I had been using was yours and noticed that there are cameras inside that I've never even seen! :O  I'll have to give those a try. I would have probably gotten Pack One, except I hadn't made the jump to iRay before it's sale had ended. 

    As for documentation, while using DIM, you have to go digging for the documentation and I usually only bother if something doesn't work right out of the box or isn't obvious to me (most often, it's because I don't know where to find the new item). I think DAZ really should link README's from the product's page in order to make it easier for folks to find them. 

    I personally hate video documentation, since I can read faster than most people tend to speak when doing tutorial videos and if I don't want to read the entire thing, I can usually find what I want with search which you can't do with a 20 minute video. So, if my primary source of education is via youtube, I'll probably ignore it. Of course, there are certain situations where having a more visual approach is necessary (like learning to use a new interface that is complicated) and for those, videos are fine. I'm probably a minority on this. Obviously, lots of folks prefer videos to reading, so maybe you should ignore this:)

    If you are still reading this, after my crazy rant...one thing that would be an instant buy for me would be some HDRI options that would work for:

    • Yard scenes for a interior render of a home (it could even include the house from one side, since it would probably be really hard to get rid of it, as long as it was rotateable). I'm thinking of rendering living rooms or bedrooms with windows and having the HDRI provide the yard, even if you put some stuff in front of it. Sure, the scenes are a little less exciting than a beach scene, but it would have very good uses. 
       
    • Daylight in big city -- These would be for similar situations as above, except for scenes that are supposed to take place in a building surrounded by tall buildings (perhaps from a floor that is several stories high). Some might overlook a body of water on one side (whatever you can get raw images for) and city skyline on the other. Some might be in the middle of the city. I found a free HDR image on one of the freebie sites of a helipad , and it works OK, but the pad itself is proving to be really hard to hide, so I have no idea if this is even possible without similar problems. 
    •  
    • Night in big city -- same as above except at night. The important thing here would be the city lights from buildings that surround you, of course.
    •  
    • Sandy beach with ocean on one side and beach on the other. Maybe more than one with different types of sun like dawn, noon, dusk and sunset (would you be able to write off those plane tickets? :P ) 

    Some of these might already exist in other packages. If so, I'll find them eventually, but, if not, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would buy them. 

    Post edited by mambanegra on
  • No clue why the bullets are wonky on the forum. I see them now in my earlier post...

  • JerifeJerife Posts: 272
    fastbike1 said:

    @Jerife

    If the camera has DOF turned on, your sugject is outside the zone of focus. The easiest way to tell is to leave the DOF camera selected (in parameters tab), then goe to Perspective View. Pan around until you can see your subject and the camera "panes" that show the depth of field. The in focus area is between the planes. You can see depth of field change as you change the focal length, focal distance, f-stop etc.

    See attached. Her face and chest will be out of focus with these camera settings.

    Thanks a lot fastbike. Very easy if you know it :)

     

     

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  • JerifeJerife Posts: 272
    edited September 2015

     

    As for documentation, while using DIM, you have to go digging for the documentation and I usually only bother if something doesn't work right out of the box or isn't obvious to me (most often, it's because I don't know where to find the new item). I think DAZ really should link README's from the product's page in order to make it easier for folks to find them.  

    Hi Mambanegra; When you install something with DIM, once installed you can click in the arrow tab right to the name of the product. In that menu there is a Show installed files tab, it gives you the list with all paths to the files you installed 

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  • JerifeJerife Posts: 272
    edited September 2015

    As with regard to your topic DT I would love to have a picture now is missing on my head. I have plenty of yours and AoA products; Both for Carrara and DS. I would love to have you drawing a map of how they can interact ones with the others and for which render machine.

    iRay, Reality, and 3Delight I've used under DS. Have not bought the latest from Paolo yet and I am liking iRay due to the integration it has with DS. Carrara seems to have been abandoned by Daz so I won't investigate Octane even if PhilW praises it a lot till I can use there Genesis with all its bits, even the no named ones. (I remember the "toast" topic lol)

    So focusing on DS what do I do with all the lights shaders and domes you both did for 3Delight.  I know I can use one of your HDRs for lighting with Draw Dome off and one of your Skies of Reality as background in an iRay render but can I use the sun in one of those presets? Can I use the Sky Domes as light under the Enviroment Map in an iRay render? 

    Interjection is valid yet for iRay or only for 3Delight and Reality? What you achieve with Interjection is the same as what you can with Subsurface Shader Base?

    It seems the Advanced Distant, Spotlight and Ambient lights are of no use in iRay but, do they work on Reality?

    I would love you elaborating about all this relations.

    Thanks

    Post edited by Jerife on
  • In case this helps anyone else who's looking for documentation on the Nature's Variance package --

    I found this forum topic, which references the same documentation URL that the store page does:

    http://www.3dimensiondigital.com/locker/NatureShader/NS-Documentation.pdf

    Unfortunately, the domain www.3dimensiondigital.com seems to no longer exist -- it gives a "server not found".

    I went through the ReadMe files on my hard drive, looking for the same filename (NS-Documentation.pdf), and found the documentation under a different name. You'll find it at:

    [content library]/ReadMe's/19010_NaturesVarianceShadersProps.pdf

    The manual looks very helpful -- looking forward to using it.

  • BurstAngelBurstAngel Posts: 762
    edited August 2017

    I like you lights alot, but I don't know the difference between your set of HDRI's and Meshlights Sets. Believe me I've been eyeing both not knowing which one to get. Consider me an iray newb, I'm still trying to figure out the grainy renders.

    I think what I would prefer is a quicklist that I can print out and refer to as I work. I need the practice and it's easier to memorize when your working on something. Having a full documentation is important, but it's frustrationing when your only looking for a specific answer.

    Post edited by BurstAngel on
  • TooncesToonces Posts: 919

    HDRI - set it and forget it. Literally just double click on the HDRI 'render setting' you want to use and you're lighting is done. You can switch to iray preview and change the 'dome rotation' from 0 to 90 to 180, etc. This will help get the shadows the way you want them, but that's all there is to it.

    Mesh - These you need to load and point at your figure(s). Mesh vol 2 includes camera with each light prop so you can set perspective to the camera to aid in the 'pointing'. Optionally, you can also apply materials to the mesh surface to change it's color. For me, these are useful when doing indoor scenes, especially with a window present. For the window, I'll use the HDR to provide the outdoor environment and the meshlight to provide the indoor lighting.

    If there are no windows, it's easier to jsut hide the roof/walls and use HDR lighting in my opinion...so I recommend the HDR sets if you haven't purchased either yet.

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