Advice for an Iray PC 2023
almahiedra
Posts: 1,352
in The Commons
I need an advice for an Iray PC. My budget is USD$3,000.
The money should be divided between: CPU+cooling, RAM, Motherboard, SSD, GPU and PS. My content is already on external discs and the case I would get it with extra money.
I require an AMD processor. In the case of the GPU I wouldn’t do complex scenes but I would like to work comfortably.
As I work on data analysis, as much RAM and GPU memory as possible would be desirable.
Thanks in advance!
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I would suggest looking for an NVidia GPU with at least 12 GB VRAM; even though you say you don't want to do complex scenes the new G9 figures can support 8k textures and that can still fill up your VRAM rather quickly. Something like a RTX 3060 (or even a 4070 if you can find one at a decent price) would do. As for system RAM, the current rule of thumb is to have at least 3x your VRAM to make sure your scenes will not run out of system memory. For 12 GB VRAM, 32 GB system RAM might get you by but 48 or 64 GB would definitely be better (again, assuming you can find good prices on the RAM DIMMs).
My current system has 64 GB RAM and a RTX 3090 (24 GB VRAM) and I can confirm that I run out of system RAM on scenes that take up about 18 GB VRAM, so the 3:1 rule of thumb is definitely accurate in my case. I am considering increasing my RAM but in my case that may require replacing my motherboard since it would only support 8x16 GB DIMMs at 2133 MHz (currently I run at 3000 MHz), so I may have to wait longer because of cost...
Good luck with your system build.
There is no substitute for GPU. Even if it means skimping on the other things, a higher tier GPU with enough VRAM makes all the difference. You can often upgrade your system RAM if you find it is not enough, but you can never upgrade VRAM on a GPU. Keep this in mind.
Sadly, that limits how many GPUs are realistic to buy. There are not many that go beyond 12gb. The high end cards from last generation are now out of stock most places. The 4080 is kind of a joke when the 4090 is $400 more for speed and a hefty 8gb extra VRAM.
VRAM requirements are only going to get higher. Products that are better quality are going to use more mesh and texture data. I must point out that Genesis 9 isn't as bad as people think on VRAM. The 8k textures are generally shared between multiple models, so you loading the same 8k textures, not new unique ones. Also, the 8k texures are only normal maps. Most of the rest are still 4K. The normal maps are also optional, if you have people away from the camera, you don't need them.
Would you really need 24gb, I don't know, everybody is different. I rarely use that much myself, but I have gone past 12gb numerous times. I have a 3090 and a 3060, so I know when my 12gb is not rendering that I have exceeded its limit.
Since you have $3000, that is fantastic, you can grab a 4090 and be happy with that. Pretty much any recent Ryzen is fine for Daz and other tasks. I would not worry about exceeding VRAM and rendering on CPU too much here. Not only would have a 4090 with 24gb, but if your scene is that large, it is going to take a while on any CPU. The difference in performance is massive. You would want a very good CPU cooler for sure, because modern CPUs can get quite hot on all core workloads like rendering. If you don't CPU render, this is less an issue.
But obviously, a 16 core 7950X is going to be better at rendering than any other desktop CPU. That includes the newer 7950X3D. The "X3D" chips are meant more for gaming than rendering, and the process of adding the extra cache to the CPU means it is clocked lower. For all core workloads, the non X3D varients will beat their X3D versions every time. So you can save money and skip the X3D. You can go beyond this into the Threadripper series, however, I don't think you need to go that hard on this. Threadripper is MUCH more expensive, so it just isn't worth buying only for that "what if I run out of VRAM a few times" question. The 8 core 7700 would be totally fine. Being on the new AM5 socket, you would have the ability to upgrade this CPU for probably 2 generations, whatever they decide to call them. So if you do find that the 7700 is not enough for you, next year you can grab the next gen 8000 series (or whatever number they use) and get more performance. You just need to update the BIOS on the motherboard.
You would be better off getting 128GB of RAM, as this would mostly guarantee that you can use all 24gb of VRAM in the 4090. At 64gb, there is a chance you run out of RAM before running out of VRAM.
This chance depends on your Iray compression setting. By default the compression is actually pretty high, and it is possible to use 3, 4 even 5 times as much RAM as VRAM for a scene to render. That is all from texture data being compressed. Mesh data cannot be compressed, so the only way to reduce mesh data is to lower subdivision. But if you like to lower compression (by raising the numbers in Nvidia advanced settings), then your VRAM use will get closer to your RAM use as you reduce compression. Actual RAM use does not change from this setting, only VRAM.
I would suggest monitoring your RAM and VRAM to see how much you typically use to get an idea of how much you may need. If you never use more than 64gb of RAM, then maybe you don't need more. I would build the PC in a way that lets you expand RAM later. Like if you buy 64gb, buy it in large capacity modules so you still have empty slots for more RAM in the future. 128GB is the limit for most motherboards, but this may be changing as I write this. I think most Ryzen CPUs also have a max of 128gb anyway, making it a moot point to go beyond 128.
Everything else is relative. Perhaps a 850W to 1000W power supply, unless you get a real power hungry CPU with lots of cores (which Threadripper is.)
$3000 will buy one hell of a rig for doing Iray renders!
Oh to have that kind of budget.
I just took home a new liquid cool build with 64G DDR4 i7 13th gen RTX 4090 this thing is a beast!
I want to see some of this work that requires that much power. Has to be amazing!! What are those render times?
I don't know your current specs but don't waste your money if you don't need to. If your average renders are taking 30-40 minutes (like mine) and you don't have any deadline to churn them out, spending 3 grand to render them in perhaps 10 minutes might not be such a good investment. Of course that's up to you if you think it's worth it. Not that I don't pretty much constantly think about upgrading myself LOL. I've never had much patience and now I'm old I have even less so perhaps I should take Seinfeld's advise..... the less time you have in life....
BTW, the benchmark thread is in my sig, and easy to find if that doesn't work. I admit is hard to navigate now because it is hard to keep the charts up to date. You can use search on the thread to find specific items.
You can do the bench yourself (DUF link in the first post) and you can compare the results to others. Try to compare times from the same version of Daz Iray, because some versions can behave differently. Also, don't take the times as an exact 1 to 1 comparison, because every scene can be different. Actual performance can vary depending on the scene. But certainly you can get a solid idea of where you stand compared to what you can buy.
It would be good to know what you have now, and what your plans are. I assumed that because you are concerned about running out of VRAM, then you must have some plan to use a lot of it at times. I think the 4090 (or 3090 if available) would be the most future proof because of their 24gb of VRAM. If there were more options above 12, that would be great, but there isn't. You can find lots of GPUs that have 12gb at this point, so you can easily pick whatever. But above 12, only the 4080, 3090, and 4090 offer more than that...unless you dive into Quadro (A Series) products. But Quadro is absurdly expensive (a single card can be above your entire budget), and not worth the reach. They also don't help if you lack enough RAM to support them, since you can realistically run out of RAM before VRAM in some situations. Thus a 48gb GPU doesn't really work unles you have 256gb of RAM or more.
That is why I suggest spending more on a 24gb GPU than to try chasing CPU rendering performance at all. I believe CPU rendering is a losing battle, you can dump tons of cash in that and still get beat by a 3090 by miles. I would hope 24gb is enough, and you would never have to render on CPU again. If it isn't, I would optimize the scene until it fits rather than make any attempt at CPU rendering. You only need a CPU that is good enough to handle the Daz Studio software and whatever other programs you like to use. So there is no need to go wild on CPU, you can even get a last gen Ryzen 5000 CPU as they are on good deals now. I have a 5800x myself. It runs Daz great. I used to have a 7 year old i5 4690, and that was becoming a drag when using Daz. The 5800x runs Daz as well as you can hope for (Daz Studio is still primarily single threaded, so having a bunch of extra cores isn't a big help.) Maybe Daz 5.0 fixes this. I am not holding my breath. But at any rate, even last gen runs Daz well, and the GPU does the rendering. My 3090 has been awesome. You have to build a pretty complex scene with large textures or lots of geometry to bog down Daz on my PC at all. I am so happy I upgraded from that old 4690. I didn't realize just how much of a difference it would be until I experienced it myself. And of course, the new 7000 series can probably run Daz a little bit better (not drastically, but a little).
Don't forget you can also add extra GPUs, too. You don't have to use just one. What beats a 3080? How about 2 of them? Or use a 3080 12gb with a 4070. You can mix and match, though I sugget getting similar VRAM capacities if you do. It uses more power than a single card, of course, but it is possible. You can stack CUDA cores, but note you cannot stack VRAM. Nvlink may be possible, but I don't know if anyone ever truly confirmed that worked. But that is another deal. The point is, you have options if the 3090 or 4090 are more than you want to invest, or more than you need. Two 3080s I believe will beat a 4090 at rendering speed, but you have half the VRAM than a 4090. Unless those 3080s are really good prices, it probably isn't worth the hassle. But adding a 2nd GPU down the road is one the easiest ways to get more speed. Instead of replacing a GPU, buy a second one if your PC can handle it.
Not sure if this is in response to my new set up. Everything looks the same just faster Im coming from a 2080ti. I did it cause it was fesable & had the means. It is actually approx $700 cheaper than my last build. Times are improved especially with HRDI backdrop takes seconds vs a few mintes.
The main reason I have a 3090 and 64 GB RAM is I am working on projects with 20-30 G8 figures in them (think something along the lines of a battle chess type of scenario) and I need the memory to be able to render entire scenes without having to resort to tricks like spot rendering portions of the scene and then stitching them back together in GIMP or Photoshop. Most of my group renders take under 2 hours with my 3090 (used to be at least twice that when I had a Titan X Pascal) and individual closeup scenes with 2-4 figures take around 30 minutes.
I agree with not worrying too much about CPU rendering, since there are tools out there you can use to reduce texture sizes (think does everything have to be 8k or 4k textures if you are rendering at 1080/1440/2160 resolutions?) and keep everything fitting in your VRAM budget. In the end for IRAY, go with the biggest GPU (and matching power supply) you can afford and if necessary cut back elsewhere to get your system within budget...
The speed is insane. Im rendering my 2nd project. A scene that used to take 1/2 hour is almost ready after 3 minutes! It's also ultra quiet!
...I remember when getting rendering a full scene (without relying on an HDRI environment) down to 30 min seemed "insane".
I have yet to try it but from what I understand AI stable diffusion is instant, but can still require horsepower. Either way enjoying the new build. Watch it 4090 will prolly be a minimum requirment for DS5...
I remember suffering long times when using Reality:) It was a lesson in patience.
...I'm already out of the loop The 4.21.0.5 General build is the last version of Daz I can use as I'm on W7 and all subsequent builds require Nvidia drivers that are mo longer compatible with the older OS.
Looking at about a 940$ price tag to upgrade my system to W11 standards (including W11 Pro) This doesn't include drives, GPU, PSU, displays, or case which I already have
I did spend quite a bit but sold my old system for a decent amount plus commissions keep rolling in..
...yeah, what little work I get paid for is "pocket money", nothing really significant enough. As my main system is 11 years old (X58 Motherboard, DDR3 memory, PCIe 2.0), it's resale value would be pathetic even with the upgrades I made years ago. Hence why I find it better to upgrade it instead of build completely new. Besides the case I have is huge and has more than sufficient airflow with 7 fans (4 intake with filters and 3 exhaust), and is wide enough to handle the CPU cooler I need for the Ryzen 5900X (and a large intake fan where most caes today have that ridiculous window).
Mine was 6 years old. Most of the value was due to the 2080ti had an older i7 10 core precessor and 64G of RAM. Plus a 27" monitor since I bought a new samsung 28" 4K due to having the new card.
Could you recommend any particular 4090 card? I don't need to overclock it or have special gaming modes, I'd just like to eventually get a stable, quiet 4090 once I pay off the $2500 in upcoming dental bills I was just informed of yesterday (but it will be worth it to stop the pain, omg).
I bought a prebuild (HP) during the graphics card shortage. At the time it was the best way to get the graphics card I thought I wanted; but now I have proprietary components to deal with. At some point I'm going to upgrade to a 3090 (all about the VRAM) and boost the RAM (as mentioned above).. beyond that I worry about proprietary issues with the case, power supply, and mother board. The system has served me well and it will be a while before that happens.. but, given your situation I would suggest build by spec and avoid all I mentioned above.
Others can speak to this better than me, I'm fixated on the 3090. Has the same amount of VRAM as the top 4xxx cards; so, I don't see a reason to jump to the more power hungry cards.. at least not for rendering. I mean you mentioned data wrangling.. but a dedicated 3090 isn't a slouch, probably be fine for most tasks and you can do a lot of rendering with 24GB VRAM.
Good luck!
My build as an MSI gaming trio https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=43_557_559&item_id=229418 with a crossair case with liquid & radiator cooling. The whole system is really quiet.
I can't stand HP. In the early days using DS3 I fried 2 of their laptops.
They're all quiet and stable, Nvidia oks the partner board designs and provides a reference design that meets minimum specs although few use it. Paying more gets you something overbuilt in terms of onboard components that to be honest you don't need for running Studio. There's also a tax on brand name, flashing lights and 'gamer' styling. I was going to buy the Gigabyte Gaming model, lower end of the 4090 price curve, 3 year warranty, middle of the road board, quiet fans and good temps with the thought of maybe water cooling it down the road. Dropped on a deal for an Inno3d reference card with a factory fitted waterblock so bought that instead. People have complained about fan noise on the Zotac models so I'd probably avoid those. The most expensive cards tend to suffer from coil whine more than the lower end of the range but that's usually only an issue for people playing games at high frame rates. It's a consequence of the extra power stages and more heavy duty components needed to support shoving 600w through a card that would have run happily on 450 or less.
Power use is similar between a 3090 and 4090 while rendering. The 4090 is faster and quieter.
Agreed my new build with the 4090 is alot quieter overall.
Thank you, that is very useful. I had also looked at Gigabyte now that we cannot get EVGAs, and I had never heard of Zotac before EVGA stopped making cards. I've been tempted to get an official nVidia one, but they're usually about $300 more than the third-party brands. Will just have to keep an eye out.
A few builds back in 2012, I skipped Nividia and went with Radeon on the "promise" that Reality was going to offer faster and slicker renders. We all know how that went. I am glad that day is finally here! I do have to dabble in Stable Infusion one day...
Thanks for the feedback! Looks like the 3090ti and 4090 have very similar power specs.
Okay, my two cents...if you have that type of budget, then focus on GPU for sure. I still use my rig I built for close to $1700 with a 2080Ti card solely for rendering and it does what I need for it to do. But I'm also not doing deadline/professional work either (meaning I have to met a serious deadline of sorts). And that kind of is my point, unless you are doing that level of work, you probably should build your way up to a powerhouse PC. Look into getting a 3080 card solely for rendering, a newer i7 processor, at least 32GB of RAM (64 is possible) and go from there. A really nice upper middle tier gaming rig would definitely do the trick here.
Great specs, pretty much describes my machine. I have the 3080 and in hindsight (and since mine is primarily a rendering machine), I would have gone with the 3060 for the 12GB of VRAM and less money. Back then I saw the render time comparisons and firgured the 3080 is faster. Now, I know that VRAM is a gate, your scene must fit through to get that faster speed.. when it doesn't I get to enjoy the next hour watching my fancy, expensive GPU sit idle as the CPU renders the scene (nope, I'm not bitter or anything :). Apart from that, those specs work great and the extra cores in a 3080 may help the data wrangling OP mentioned.
Kyoto...
I sent you a PM...
Also, for the rest of you that have upgraded... don't forget to check out the "Daz Pay it Forward" thread.
https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/472196/pay-it-forward-daz3d-style/p1
If you have extra stuff sittin' on a shelf...
You're welcome. The Nvidia FE cards should be as cheap or cheaper than anything else. They're released in batches through the Nvidia website and the link will take you to your region's dealer to order. It's Best Buy for the US and Scan for the UK, not sure where the rest of the world ship from. They're popular because they're cheap, work well and don't look like a UFO crashing into a barn so they do tend to sell out quite quickly. If you're seeing them listed somewhere else they're probably being resold and the warranty is suspect.
The new stuff is more efficient, if usually uses less power. If it's using as much or more power then it's going quite a lot quicker.
My 4090 with the voltage limit raised and a mild overclock hits about 320w rendering in the Daz Studio Beta which is similar to a stock 3090 for power but about 75% faster. Hits about 280w stock.
My entire system - 4090 and 13700k both with a mild overclock, 64gb DDR5, 5 fans and a watercooling pump hits 450w while rendering. If I ran it all stock I could knock 50w off that. Gaming is another matter, Cyberpunk with everything turned up to 11 is pulling about 700w.