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Using Wound Makeup Artist Geometry Shells in Iray

thistledownsnamethistledownsname Posts: 1,325
in Technical Help (nuts n bolts)

I just got http://www.daz3d.com/wound-makeup-artist-geometry-shells-genesis-2-female-s but I'm having trouble getting it to work in Iray.  The product page says it's been updated to work with Iray, but I don't see how.

I applied some scars and tried to run in Iray, got bad results.  Remembered to use the Iray Uber shader on them - didn't help.  I put out a copy in 3delight and it looks fine, then did the same shot in Iray and I just get a few odd triangles.  How do I fix it?

Examples in 3delight and Iray.

3delight  iray

Comments

  • ToborTobor Posts: 2,300
    edited September 2015

    Interesting. I don't have this product, or know how they are using the shell, but the triangles are the result of something called shadow terminator artifact. There are several other threads going on where this subject is being discussed. It's an issue with Iray, and unbiased renderers in general.

    If I were to guess at some fixes, make sure that your underlying character is set to High Resolution and not Base for the Resolution Level. I'm pretty sure the shell then made takes on the resolution level of its parent (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). With a higher SubD those nasty triangles should go away. 

    As for why the texture isn't showing up, is there an Iray shader that you must apply, before or after applying the wound texture? If the shell is shaded for 3DL, it's anyone's guess how it will turn out in Iray. You can never trust Iray's just-in-time shader converter. You're apt to have it converted to some unknown shader type that may not show up the texture.

     

    Post edited by Tobor on
  • thistledownsnamethistledownsname Posts: 1,325

    Ok, that gave me a direction to start in.  Unfortunately, the product didn't come with an instruction manual.  I was already at High Res with 1SubD.  Moved it up to 2 SubD and things got better, but I also found a "Mesh Offset" parameter that seems to help a lot.  This is not quite the same shot, but close enough.  The shoulder has the default offset of 0.02 cm, while the torso has 0.1 cm.  I'll poke it some more to see if I can get the rest of the scar to show.

    It's still a lot more washed out than I'd like though.  Any ideas on making it stand out more?

  • ToborTobor Posts: 2,300

    When you apply the wound texture for Iray, what does the shader look like when you select it and view the Surfaces tab? Can you do a screen shot of that?

  • thistledownsnamethistledownsname Posts: 1,325
    edited September 2015

    Here is the torso item after applying the Iray Uber shader to it.

    http://www.daz3d.com/galleryimage/image/86741/torso-wound_full.png

    Post edited by thistledownsname on
  • thistledownsnamethistledownsname Posts: 1,325

    So, here's a more complete picture.  I had to do multiple shots to get all of the shader parameters.  Here's a set with the Iray Uber applied, and a set with the default shaders.

    http://www.daz3d.com/galleryimage/image/86756/default-1_full.png

    http://www.daz3d.com/galleryimage/image/86755/default-2_full.png

    http://www.daz3d.com/galleryimage/image/86754/default-3_full.png

    http://www.daz3d.com/galleryimage/image/86759/parameters-1_full.png

    http://www.daz3d.com/galleryimage/image/86758/parameters-2_full.png

    http://www.daz3d.com/galleryimage/image/86757/parameters-3_full.png

     

    Also, the nose scar seems to be working fine, but now the torso scar with the same parameters doesn't work.

  • ToborTobor Posts: 2,300

    Thanks for these. I can see the first three are 3DL shaders, and these of course might not look right in an Iray render. The last three for Iray seem okay, except for the torso you have selected I can't see any maps in the usual channels that would have them. I don't use D|S with this style of UI, but in the Surfaces tab I see a small icon of the image when a map is plugged into the node.

    You might need the PA's help, but the usual causes for this problem are: A) Using 3DL shaders instead of Iray shaders, B) An accidental setting that effectively hides the surface (e.g. Opacity Cutout at 0, or Refraction Weight at 1). or C) Missing texture maps.

  • thistledownsnamethistledownsname Posts: 1,325

    Thanks.  I sent SimonWM a message, hopefully he'll weigh in here.

    Ran another go over night.  The 3DL shaded one showed up smugged and faded, but definately there.  The nose is still fine, but the torso is more like scabs from an old road-rash than the vibrant scars and bruises, and the arm looks unhurt.

  • SimonWMSimonWM Posts: 924
    edited September 2015
    thistledownsname said:

    Thanks.  I sent SimonWM a message, hopefully he'll weigh in here

    When we updated this product to work with Iray, Iray was still in beta.  A new wound product is being worked on geared towards Iray.  The notes from our 2nd shell Iray product the tattoo Parlor Geometry shells apply to this product as well.  You deduced correctly your problems have to do with the geometry shell offset  distance.  Taken from the Tattoo Parlor Geometry Shells readme (And I'm going to contact DAZ about adding this to our wound products.):

     

    Additional Details

    • In Iray the renderer won’t see two geometry shells that occupy the same surface. When you have two wounds (different shells) in the same surface if your wound is looking broken in Iray you need to change the mesh offset value of the shell in Parameters to make it different from the other shells in that surface in order to fix it. Usually just making it one decimal different will make the trick, sometimes it will need more offset. You don’t have this problem in 3Delight.

    • In Iray depending on your lights if the wounds are reflecting too much light you might need to lower the Glossy Reflectivity value in surfaces for each affected wound (geometry shell surface).

    Post edited by SimonWM on
  • thistledownsnamethistledownsname Posts: 1,325

    Thanks.  I changed the layers a bit, but it's still giving me trouble.  Will the new pack be for G2F as well, or will it just be G3F?  I might get a refund on this one and wait for the next one.

  • SimonWMSimonWM Posts: 924

    No, the new pack will be for Genesis 3 not Genesis 2 but I'm seeing the version that is in DAZ servers doesn't have the Iray Uber already applied to every shell which is the update we sent to DAZ months ago for Iray. I will have to e-mail DAZ to find out what happened.  Basicly this free Iray update to the product was applying the Iray Uber Shader to every single Geometry Shell in the product and adjusting the bump map to increase its value for Iray.

    thistledownsname said:

    Thanks.  I changed the layers a bit, but it's still giving me trouble.  Will the new pack be for G2F as well, or will it just be G3F?  I might get a refund on this one and wait for the next one.

     

  • thistledownsnamethistledownsname Posts: 1,325

    Oh!  Great! (well, not great on DAZ dropping the ball, but)

  • SimonWMSimonWM Posts: 924
    edited September 2015
    thistledownsname said:

    Oh!  Great! (well, not great on DAZ dropping the ball, but)

    In talking to DAZ I discovered the update was applied correctly.  This Iray update was created previous to the Iray shader and consists of a different setup in LIE so the wounds will display in Iray which previous to the update wouldn't be visible.  The person that worked on the update was fellow PA Dega.  He did apply the Iray shader to every single geometry shell in our next product the Tattoo Parlor and got confused with that product when he relay the information to me. I apologize for the confusion.

    Like many products created for 3Delight some effects won't display as sharp as others in Iray, which in most cases can be controlled with the light.  As long as you take care of the mesh offset the effects will be visible in iray without the need to apply the Iray Uber Shader to the shell which I don't think has much effect anyway.  What is crucial in Iray is taking care of the mesh offset.  see my linked video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtppIu9fAdc

    Post edited by SimonWM on
  • thistledownsnamethistledownsname Posts: 1,325

    Hmm.  Looks like part of my problem then was applying the Iray Uber on top of the already updated shaders - it was washing them out too much.  Things still aren't great, but starting with fresh wounds is helping.

  • touji_ayanamitouji_ayanami Posts: 50
    SimonWM said:
    thistledownsname said:

    Thanks.  I sent SimonWM a message, hopefully he'll weigh in here

    When we updated this product to work with Iray, Iray was still in beta.  A new wound product is being worked on geared towards Iray.  The notes from our 2nd shell Iray product the tattoo Parlor Geometry shells apply to this product as well.  You deduced correctly your problems have to do with the geometry shell offset  distance.  Taken from the Tattoo Parlor Geometry Shells readme (And I'm going to contact DAZ about adding this to our wound products.):

     

    Additional Details

    • In Iray the renderer won’t see two geometry shells that occupy the same surface. When you have two wounds (different shells) in the same surface if your wound is looking broken in Iray you need to change the mesh offset value of the shell in Parameters to make it different from the other shells in that surface in order to fix it. Usually just making it one decimal different will make the trick, sometimes it will need more offset. You don’t have this problem in 3Delight.

    • In Iray depending on your lights if the wounds are reflecting too much light you might need to lower the Glossy Reflectivity value in surfaces for each affected wound (geometry shell surface).

    Thanks it helped me a lot I was about going crazy laugh

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